LDS and JW's

[zerinus]

(2) What about that bit where Jesus says to the thief: “Amen I say to you, today you wil be with me in heaven”? Where did the thief go? I know you’re a Greek buff, so the verse is Luke 23:43 and says: “Amen lego soi, semeron met’emou ese en to paradeiso.”

In the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures Luke 23:43 reads: “And he said to him: ‘Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.’” Jesus said this in answer to the following request of one of the evildoers hung beside him: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.”—Luke 23:42.
However, other Bible translations punctuate Luke 23:43 differently. For instance, the King James Version says: “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.”

There is no question but that the position of the comma changes the meaning

Where, then, should the comma be put? What is the testimony of God’s own Word on this matter? What did Jesus himself say? Did he believe he was going to inherit his kingdom and be in some kind of Paradise immediately after he died, in that same twenty-four-hour period?

Jesus was not resurrected on the day he died, but on the third day from his death.

Thus, he could not have come into his kingdom on the day of his death. Then where was he during those three days, before his resurrection? *Acts 2:24 says: “God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it.” /I]So Jesus was in the grip of death during that time. Acts 2:27 further says concerning him: “*You will not leave my soul in Hades, neither will you allow your loyal one to see corruption.” *Hence, Jesus was in Hades, which is mankind’s common grave. And the Bible says that there is “no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [LXX, Hades].” So he was out of existence in Hades, as was the evildoer.—Eccl. 9:5,10.

Then, on the third day from his death, God raised Jesus from the dead as a mighty spirit creature. But the evildoer was not raised; he stayed in the grave.—1*Pet. 3:18.

When Jesus, after his resurrection, materialized to appear to his disciples, they asked him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6) Jesus showed that the answer was, No. The time had not yet come for his kingdom to be established.

Then, was God’s heavenly kingdom, with Jesus as king, established at any time during the lives of the apostles? No, for about sixty-three years after Jesus’ death and resurrection the apostle John was inspired to write that God’s kingdom was still in the future. (Revelation chapter 12) And it would be under that future kingdom that paradise would be restored.

Also the fact: following his resurrection he told Mary Magdalene: “I have not yet ascended to the Father.” (John 20:17) It was 40 days after Jesus’ resurrection that his disciples saw him lifted up from the earth and out of their sight as he began his ascent to heaven.—Acts 1:3,*6-11.

NOW NOTICE OUR REASONING HERE…
The evildoer did not meet the requirements to go to heaven even at some later time. He was not “born again”—being neither baptized in water nor begotten by God’s spirit. Holy spirit was not poured out upon Jesus’ disciples until more than 50 days after the evildoer’s death. (John 3:3,*5; Acts 2:1-4) On the day of his death, Jesus had made with those ‘who had stuck with him in his trials’ a covenant for a heavenly kingdom. The evildoer had no such record of faithfulness and was not included.—Luke 22:28-30.

This evildoer could expect to be resurrected to have an opportunity for eternal life.* He would be included among those mentioned at Acts 24:15, where it states: “*There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” *As an “unrighteous” person he would be resurrected and given the opportunity to learn of God’s purposes and requirements. If obedient to God and his King-Son, he would live forever on that Paradise earth, qualified to be among those of whom Psalm 37:29 foretold: “The righteous themselves will possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it.”

Thank you Dave for giving us the JW side of things. I will here take the opportunity to explain how Mormons view those scriptural passages.

In Mormonism the resurrection is universal and applies to all mankind, both the wicked and the righteous. There are no exceptions; “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21–22).

There is only one kind of resurrection for all mankind; and that is a physical one. There is no such thing as different “kinds” of resurrections applicable to different people. Everyone’s resurrection will be the same, and it will be physical, and follows the pattern of the resurrection of Jesus Christ who is “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20); and “the first that should rise from the dead” (Acts 26:23). That means that His resurrection sets the pattern for the resurrection of the rest of mankind. Their resurrection will be the same as His resurrection.

Man has an immortal spirit that predates his mortal existence, and survives his physical death. Death means the separation of the spirit and the body: “For as the body without the spirit is dead …” (James 2:26). Resurrection means the reuniting of the spirit and the body. When a man dies, his spirit survives and continues to live as a spirit in the spirit world. If he has done well in his life, his spirit will be happy in the next life, which is called paradise. If he has done evil, he will be unhappy. In fact, their existence is so real that the scripture states that Jesus after His death went into the spirit world and preach the gospel among them (1 Peter 3:19; 4:6; John 5:25). There is no such thing as annihilation after death.

On the cross, both the thief and Jesus would soon die, and their sprits would go to the spirit world. Jesus’ spirit being holy, would go into the good place in the spirit world called paradise, where the righteous sprits dwell. There among other things He would preach the gospel to the dead. But the thief being a malefactor, one would normally expect to go to the unhappy place in the spirit world. However, the words of Christ on the cross implies that because of his tremendous faith, obvious penitence, and willingness to defend the right against wrong, was forgiven of his sins, and therefore against expectation, would be with Jesus in the happy place in the spirit world which is called paradise. That is how I as a Mormon interpret those scriptures.

 

[Dan_Parker]

zerinus:
Thank you Dave for giving us the JW side of things. I will here take the opportunity to explain how Mormons view those scriptural passages.

In Mormonism the resurrection is universal and applies to all mankind, both the wicked and the righteous. There are no exceptions; “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21–22).

Dan:
I hope you don’t mind my interjecting a point or two here. The phrase “in Christ” here defines who Paul is speaking of. Those “in Christ” are those who are part of the body of Christ and not mankind in general.

The Greek Lexicon Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich (BDAG) agrees with Jehovah’s Witnesses here and give this gloss for EN (in) in that verse:

c. esp. in Paul. or Joh. usage, to designate a close personal relation in which the referent of the EN-term is viewed as the controlling influence: under the control of, under the influence of, in close association with

Therefore while there will be a resurrection for those who are not part of the body of Christ, in the context of 1Co 15, those are who he speaks. One cannot infer either that all in this passage refers to all who have ever lived or that the description of the resurrection body describes everyone who will be resurrected.

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

zerinus:
Everyone’s resurrection will be the same, and it will be physical, and follows the pattern of the resurrection of Jesus Christ who is “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20); and “the first that should rise from the dead” (Acts 26:23). That means that His resurrection sets the pattern for the resurrection of the rest of mankind. Their resurrection will be the same as His resurrection.

Dan:
I believe you impute a sense to the word first that is not warranted as well as not a common view. BDAG says of this word in Acts 26:23:*** 1. pert. to being first in a sequence, inclusive of time, set (number), or space, first ***

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

zerinus:
There is only one kind of resurrection for all mankind; and that is a physical one.

Dan:
NJB 1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man, being made of earth, is earthly by nature; the second man is from heaven.

BDAG gives the gloss for earth above as “made of dust” and it speaks of the composition of the body of Adam and other humans. – BDAG “made of earth/dust (XOUS)” It is contrasted with the spiritual body which is “from heaven.” Thus we can be certain that the body of those resurrected to heaven do not contain the dust of the earth like the body of Adam or you or I.

In addition, while you claim that all bodies are physical this is also a description of the body which is contrasted with the spiritual body of those resurrected to heaven.

NRS 1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a **physical **body, it is raised a **spiritual **body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

The body of those resurrected to heaven is not one of flesh and blood and indeed it does not contain flesh like ours that is made of dust, as we have seen from 1Co 15:47 above.
NAB 1 Corinthians 15:50 This I declare, brothers: **flesh and blood **cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Dan

 

[dj_dave]

zerinus:
There is only one kind of resurrection for all mankind; and that is a physical one.

Dan:
NJB 1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man, being made of earth, is earthly by nature; the second man is from heaven.

BDAG gives the gloss for earth above as “made of dust” and it speaks of the composition of the body of Adam and other humans. – BDAG “made of earth/dust (XOUS)” It is contrasted with the spiritual body which is “from heaven.” Thus we can be certain that the body of those resurrected to heaven do not contain the dust of the earth like the body of Adam or you or I.

In addition, while you claim that all bodies are physical this is also a description of the body which is contrasted with the spiritual body of those resurrected to heaven.

NRS 1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a **physical **body, it is raised a **spiritual **body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

The body of those resurrected to heaven is not one of flesh and blood and indeed it does not contain flesh like ours that is made of dust, as we have seen from 1Co 15:47 above.
NAB 1 Corinthians 15:50 This I declare, brothers: **flesh and blood **cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Dan

Also, while many will say “flesh and Bone” Lev 17:11 tells us

KJV 11For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

 

[zerinus]

The Greek Lexicon Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich (BDAG) agrees with Jehovah’s Witnesses here and give this gloss for EN (in) in that verse:

c. esp. in Paul. or Joh. usage, to designate a close personal relation in which the referent of the EN-term is viewed as the controlling influence: under the control of, under the influence of, in close association with

Therefore while there will be a resurrection for those who are not part of the body of Christ, in the context of 1Co 15, those are who he speaks. One cannot infer either that all in this passage refers to all who have ever lived or that the description of the resurrection body describes everyone who will be resurrected.

The significant bit here was the word “all”:

For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22).

The second ALL is complementary to the first ALL. Just as the first “all” is comprehensive and applies to literally “all,” so is the second. That is the point I was making, that there are no exceptions as to who will be resurrected. All will be resurrected, without exception—the wicked as well as the righteous.

zerinus:
Everyone’s resurrection will be the same, and it will be physical, and follows the pattern of the resurrection of Jesus Christ who is “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Cor. 15:20); and “the first that should rise from the dead” (Acts 26:23). That means that His resurrection sets the pattern for the resurrection of the rest of mankind. Their resurrection will be the same as His resurrection.

Dan:
I believe you impute a sense to the word first that is not warranted as well as not a common view. BDAG says of this word in Acts 26:23:*** 1. pert. to being first in a sequence, inclusive of time, set (number), or space, first ***

Dan

I think you are trying to confuse us with Greek gobbledygook! I said that those verses implied that the Jesus’ resurrection sets the pattern for the resurrection of all mankind; and I still believe that that inference is valid. It does not prove it; but it strongly implies it.

I don’t think I need to learn Greek to discuss the gospel in English! This is an English board, not a Greek board. If you want to demonstrate your prowess in Greek, you should do it on a Greek speaking board where others can critique your comments, and provide useful feedback. Have you heard of the proverb that says, “In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king”. You are trying to be the one-eyed kink in the land of the blind! That is not such a smart thing to do. Luckily there are plenty of translations of the Bible make by experts which I can compare if there is something ambiguous, and come to a sound conclusion which I can trust, without having to be dependent on your Greek gobbledygook!

zerinus:
There is only one kind of resurrection for all mankind; and that is a physical one.

Dan:
NJB 1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man, being made of earth, is earthly by nature; the second man is from heaven.

BDAG gives the gloss for earth above as “made of dust” and it speaks of the composition of the body of Adam and other humans. – BDAG “made of earth/dust (XOUS)” It is contrasted with the spiritual body which is “from heaven.” Thus we can be certain that the body of those resurrected to heaven do not contain the dust of the earth like the body of Adam or you or I.

In addition, while you claim that all bodies are physical this is also a description of the body which is contrasted with the spiritual body of those resurrected to heaven.

NRS 1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a **physical **body, it is raised a **spiritual **body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

The body of those resurrected to heaven is not one of flesh and blood and indeed it does not contain flesh like ours that is made of dust, as we have seen from 1Co 15:47 above.
NAB 1 Corinthians 15:50 This I declare, brothers: **flesh and blood **cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Dan

Let’s look at the context of those passage more closely:

1 Corinthians 15:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

First of all, I don’t think this passage implies that the resurrection will not be physical. It means that resurrected bodies will not be identical in composition to our natural, mortal bodies, which we don’t dispute. Nobody claims that resurrected bodies have blood running through their veins, and have to eat roast turkey to stay alive.

Secondly, that is a difficult passage to understand, like a lot of things that Paul writes. So when you come across a difficult passage like that (and many like it in the Bible), you don’t look at it in isolation. You compare it with what information has been provided about the subject in other parts of the Bible until you can reach a definitive conclusion. On the subjection of the resurrection fortunately there is plenty of information provided that nails it down as being physical and not spiritual. I have already discussed that at length in this thread. See posts #144, #145 and #146. There is no need to repeat that all over again here.

 

[dj_dave]

zerinus:
Thank you Dave for giving us the JW side of things. I will here take the opportunity to explain how Mormons view those scriptural passages.

In Mormonism the resurrection is universal and applies to all mankind, both the wicked and the righteous. There are no exceptions; “For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21–22).

Dan:
I hope you don’t mind my interjecting a point or two here. The phrase “in Christ” here defines who Paul is speaking of. Those “in Christ” are those who are part of the body of Christ and not mankind in general.

The Greek Lexicon Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich (BDAG) agrees with Jehovah’s Witnesses here and give this gloss for EN (in) in that verse:

c. esp. in Paul. or Joh. usage, to designate a close personal relation in which the referent of the EN-term is viewed as the controlling influence: under the control of, under the influence of, in close association with

Therefore while there will be a resurrection for those who are not part of the body of Christ, in the context of 1Co 15, those are who he speaks. One cannot infer either that all in this passage refers to all who have ever lived or that the description of the resurrection body describes everyone who will be resurrected.

Dan

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21–22).

Well, I can’t figure Zerinus She said that Elijah never died now she is saying ALL die.

ALSO THAT EVERY SIN IS FORGIVABLE? …But Jesus clearly said as you stated earlier
(Matthew 12:31-32) 31*“On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

(Mark 3:28-30) 28Truly I say to YOU that all things will be forgiven the sons of men, no matter what sins and blasphemies they blasphemously commit. 29However, whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin.” 30*This, because they were saying: “He has an unclean spirit.”

And if a sin is not forgivable then that person is not to continue living, Rom 6:23; James 1:16,17…at least that’s how i read it, how about you?

 

[zerinus]

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:21–22).

Well, I can’t figure Zerinus She said that Elijah never died now she is saying ALL die.

We think that “translated” beings (like Elijah) will eventually have to experience death and resurrection; but it will be an instantaneous event (3 Nephi 28:8). I think that Paul was also talking about the same phenomenon in 1 Corinthians 15:52. [And BTW, it is a he, not a she.]

ALSO THAT EVERY SIN IS FORGIVABLE? …But Jesus clearly said as you stated earlier
(Matthew 12:31-32) 31*“On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come.

(Mark 3:28-30) 28Truly I say to YOU that all things will be forgiven the sons of men, no matter what sins and blasphemies they blasphemously commit. 29However, whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin.” 30*This, because they were saying: “He has an unclean spirit.”

And if a sin is not forgivable then that person is not to continue living, Rom 6:23; James 1:16,17…at least that’s how i read it, how about you?

We don’t think that every sin is forgiven; but everyone will be resurrected. Being resurrected does not prevent one from suffering eternal punishment or damnation. Romans 6:23 refers to spiritual death, not physical death. I did not see the connection with James 1:16,17.

 

[dj_dave]

We think that “translated” beings (like Elijah) will eventually have to experience death and resurrection; but it will be an instantaneous event (3 Nephi 28:8). I think that Paul was also talking about the same phenomenon in 1 Corinthians 15:52. [And BTW, it is a he, not a she.]

We don’t think that every sin is forgiven; but everyone will be resurrected. Being resurrected does not prevent one from suffering eternal punishment or damnation. Romans 6:23 refers to spiritual death, not physical death. I did not see the connection with James 1:16,17.

Sorry, I meant

(James 1:13-15) 13When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. 14But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15*Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.

okay, i’m out of my bad mood I will be nice from now on…

 

[dj_dave]

We think that “translated” beings (like Elijah) will eventually have to experience death and resurrection; but it will be an instantaneous event (3 Nephi 28:8). I think that Paul was also talking about the same phenomenon in 1 Corinthians 15:52. [And BTW, it is a he, not a she.]

We don’t think that every sin is forgiven; but everyone will be resurrected. Being resurrected does not prevent one from suffering eternal punishment or damnation. Romans 6:23 refers to spiritual death, not physical death. I did not see the connection with James 1:16,17.

I just don’t see how a God of love can create someone and if that someone is disobedient–God will make him suffer forever…instead of making him as the Bible says "… return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”–Gen 3:19

 

[Dan_Parker]

The significant bit here was the word “all”:

For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive” (1 Cor. 15:22).

The second ALL is complementary to the first ALL. Just as the first “all” is comprehensive and applies to literally “all,” so is the second. That is the point I was making, that there are no exceptions as to who will be resurrected. All will be resurrected, without exception—the wicked as well as the righteous.

Dan:
Do LDS have a doctrine about being “in Christ” or part of the body of Christ? To most other Christians this is clearly a reference to the Church, not the mankind in general. In addition in Paul Christ is called the last Adam. Christ replaces Adam. You assume that all “in Adam” is the same group as all “in Christ” but that is not the case. Those in Christ are a subset of those who are in Adam, the ones who are part of the body of Christ. The text contrasts the group of all humans who die because they are in Adam and the group who lives because the are in Christ. Neither the Greek or English equates these groups as the same group.

zerinus
I think you are trying to confuse us with Greek gobbledygook! I said that those verses implied that the Jesus’ resurrection sets the pattern for the resurrection of all mankind; and I still believe that that inference is valid. It does not prove it; but it strongly implies it.

Dan:
The word first means the first in a series. While BDAG discusses Greek words it does give the glosses in English. I can tell you understand English.

The implication is entirely in your own eyes and can’t be considered proof.

zerinus:
I don’t think I need to learn Greek to discuss the gospel in English! This is an English board, not a Greek board. If you want to demonstrate your prowess in Greek, you should do it on a Greek speaking board where others can critique your comments, and provide useful feedback. Have you heard of the proverb that says, “In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king”. You are trying to be the one-eyed kink in the land of the blind! That is not such a smart thing to do. Luckily there are plenty of translations of the Bible make by experts which I can compare if there is something ambiguous, and come to a sound conclusion which I can trust, without having to be dependent on your Greek gobbledygook!

Dan:
When you say a particular word which was originally written in Greek means something in English the only way to know for certain is to examine the original language and see if this is so. Greek does not translated in English word for word.

If you state that a particular bible translated by someone who knows Greek renders “first” as something like “setting the pattern” then please provide it. I don’t believe Joseph Smiths Bible does that since it is basically a KJV with modifications.

Dan

Let’s look at the context of those passage more closely:

1 Corinthians 15:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

First of all, I don’t think this passage implies that the resurrection will not be physical. It means that resurrected bodies will not be identical in composition to our natural, mortal bodies, which we don’t dispute. Nobody claims that resurrected bodies have blood running through their veins, and have to eat roast turkey to stay alive.

Secondly, that is a difficult passage to understand, like a lot of things that Paul writes. So when you come across a difficult passage like that (and many like it in the Bible), you don’t look at it in isolation. You compare it with what information has been provided about the subject in other parts of the Bible until you can reach a definitive conclusion. On the subjection of the resurrection fortunately there is plenty of information provided that nails it down as being physical and not spiritual. I have already discussed that at length in this thread. See posts #144, #145 and #146. There is no need to repeat that all over again here.

Dan:
I understand LDS teaches the resurrection body is flesh and bones with no blood. However what the text says is that it also is not made of the dust of the earth. Flesh is made of dust. So are bones.

So now you have a body that has no dust and no blood. How can you call that physical?

Dan

 

[zerinus]

Sorry, I meant

(James 1:13-15) 13When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. 14But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15*Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.

I believe that also refers to spiritual death, not physical death. Sin does not lead to physical death, at least not always. I see all kinds of sinful people going about their sinful business in perfect good health. The punishment for sin is often reserved for after you die, not before it. If God killed people physically as soon as they sinned, nobody would sin, or wouldn’t survive to sin again.

I just don’t see how a God of love can create someone and if that someone is disobedient–God will make him suffer forever

I think it is wrong for us to expect God to behave the way we think He should behave. Instead we should show our faith by our willingness to believe Him when He tells us how He behaves. Paul had an answer for the kind of objection you are raising:

Romans 9:

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

…instead of making him as the Bible says "… return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”–Gen 3:19

That is a punishment that was applied to the sin of Adam, which became applicable to all mankind. That was a one-off punishment that became applicable to everybody, whether they be sinners or righteous. everybody is going to die, the good as well as the bad. But as Paul said, “as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive”. Then everyone will be punished for their own sins, not for the sin of Adam.

 

[zerinus]

Do LDS have a doctrine about being “in Christ” or part of the body of Christ? To most other Christians this is clearly a reference to the Church, not the mankind in general…

I disagree. The traditional Christian interpretation of that verse is that “all” in both cases applies to all mankind. The scriptures also confirm this. The book of Revelation speaks of two resurrections: one at the beginning of the Millennium and one at the end. Between these two resurrections all mankind will be resurrected, without exception. Here are the verses:

John 20:

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

---

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

These verses make clear two things: firstly that the resurrection will be universal. There are no exceptions. There are two resurrections; and whoever is not resurrected at the first resurrection, will be resurrected at the second. Secondly, after the last resurrection there will be a judgement; and those who are not “written in the book of life” will suffer eternal punishment.

When you say a particular word which was originally written in Greek means something in English the only way to know for certain is to examine the original language and see if this is so. Greek does not translated in English word for word.

If you state that a particular bible translated by someone who knows Greek renders “first” as something like “setting the pattern” then please provide it. I don’t believe Joseph Smiths Bible does that since it is basically a KJV with modifications.

Since I don’t know Greek, I trust the reputable translations that have been made, and go by that. If what you tell me does not square with what I read in the majority of the reputable translations, I have no obligation to accept it. I don’t care how good you think you are at Greek.

I understand LDS teaches the resurrection body is flesh and bones with no blood. However what the text says is that it also is not made of the dust of the earth. Flesh is made of dust. So are bones.

So now you have a body that has no dust and no blood. How can you call that physical?

Again, we go by what the scriptures say:

Luke 24:

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a SPIRIT hath not FLESH and BONES, as ye see ME HAVE.

We don’t claim to know what resurrected bodies are made of, or how they function. Al we know is that they receive the same body that they had in mortality; but it is changed and glorified in ways that we do not understand and God has not revealed, which makes their bodies indestructible and immortal, and frees them from terrestrial limitations. That is all that the Lord has told us; and we don’t worry about what He hasn’t. Do you think Jesus was lying when He said that He was not a spirit, but had flesh and bones that He showed them in evidence for it? I don’t understand.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan:
When you say a particular word which was originally written in Greek means something in English the only way to know for certain is to examine the original language and see if this is so. Greek does not translated in English word for word.

If you state that a particular bible translated by someone who knows Greek renders “first” as something like “setting the pattern” then please provide it. I don’t believe Joseph Smiths Bible does that since it is basically a KJV with modifications.

zerinus:
Since I don’t know Greek, I trust the reputable translations that have been made, and go by that. If what you tell me does not square with what I read in the majority of the reputable translations, I have no obligation to accept it. I don’t care how good you think you are at Greek.

Dan:
Then please provide what I asked for in the previous post. Please provide your reputable translation that renders first in this verse as something like “setting the pattern.”

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan:
Do LDS have a doctrine about being “in Christ” or part of the body of Christ? To most other Christians this is clearly a reference to the Church, not the mankind in general…

I disagree. The traditional Christian interpretation of that verse is that “all” in both cases applies to all mankind. The scriptures also confirm this. The book of Revelation speaks of two resurrections: one at the beginning of the Millennium and one at the end. Between these two resurrections all mankind will be resurrected, without exception. Here are the verses:

Dan:
At this point I have provided the most recent Greek lexicon used in Seminaries, BDAG which says that “in Christ” in those verses refers to the body of Christ. You have provided nothing except for your unsubstantiated claim that your view is traditional. This is your proof-text and you bear the burden of proof. Back up you statement. Until you do, I must disregard your claim.

Here is BDAG again on EN (in) in this verse:

c. esp. in Paul. or Joh. usage, to designate a close personal relation in which the referent of the ev-term is viewed as the controlling influence: under the control of, under the influence of, in close association with

 

[zerinus]

Dan:
When you say a particular word which was originally written in Greek means something in English the only way to know for certain is to examine the original language and see if this is so. Greek does not translated in English word for word.

If you state that a particular bible translated by someone who knows Greek renders “first” as something like “setting the pattern” then please provide it. I don’t believe Joseph Smiths Bible does that since it is basically a KJV with modifications.

zerinus:
Since I don’t know Greek, I trust the reputable translations that have been made, and go by that. If what you tell me does not square with what I read in the majority of the reputable translations, I have no obligation to accept it. I don’t care how good you think you are at Greek.

Dan:
Then please provide what I asked for in the previous post. Please provide your reputable translation that renders first in this verse as something like “setting the pattern.”

Dan

Sure, no problem. 1 Corinthians 15:20 reads as follows in the following translations:

NIV: But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
NAS: But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
ISV: But at this moment the Messiah stands risen from the dead, the first one offered in the harvest of those who have died.
GWT: But now Christ has come back from the dead. He is the very first person of those who have died to come back to life.
KJV: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
AKJ: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.
ASV: But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
BBE: But now Christ has truly come back from the dead, the first-fruits of those who are sleeping.
DRB: But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep:
DBY: (But now Christ is raised from among the dead, first-fruits of those fallen asleep.
ERV: But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
WBS: But now is Christ raised from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept.
WEY: But, in reality, Christ has risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep.
WEB: But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep.
YLT: And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead—the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,

All of these verses are basically saying that Jesus was the first person to be resurrected. The underlying implication is that His resurrection sets the pattern for everybody else’s resurrection. He was resurrected in the same as everybody would be. Since His body was the same as everybody else’s, and His death was the same as everybody else’s, His coming back to life would be the same as everybody else too. That is the implication. If I said that I was the first person among invited guests that arrived at the party, that implies that we all arrived at the same party, not at different parties. Similarly when it says that He was the first person among the rest of mankind to be resurrected, that implies that He was resurrected in the same way that everybody else would be. Acts 26:23 says the same thing, but in different words:

NIV: that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles.
NAS: that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.
ISV: that the Messiah would suffer and be the first to rise from the dead and would bring light both to our people and to the gentiles.
GWT: They said that the Messiah would suffer and be the first to come back to life and would spread light to Jewish and non-Jewish people.
KJV: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
AKJ: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light to the people, and to the Gentiles.
ASV: how that the Christ must suffer, and how that he first by the resurrection of the dead should proclaim light both to the people and to the Gentiles.
BBE: That the Christ would go through pain, and being the first to come back from the dead, would give light to the people and to the Gentiles.
DRB: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light to the people, and to the Gentiles.
DBY: namely, whether Christ should suffer; whether he first, through resurrection of the dead, should announce light both to the people and to the nations.
ERV: how that the Christ must suffer, and how that he first by the resurrection of the dead should proclaim light both to the people and to the Gentiles.
WBS: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light to the people, and to the Gentiles.
WEY: since the Christ was to be a suffering Christ, and by coming back from the dead was then to be the first to proclaim a message of light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.
WEB: how the Christ must suffer, and how, by the resurrection of the dead, he would be first to proclaim light both to these people and to the Gentiles.
YLT: that the Christ is to suffer, whether first by a rising from the dead, he is about to proclaim light to the people and to the nations.
The same logic aplies here. If I said I was the first to fly in a 747, that means that everybody else whom I am comparing myself with also flew in a 747. They didn’t fly in a 737, or travelled by balloon, or sailed in a boat. When it says that Jesus was the first person to be resurrected, that implies that He was resurrected in the same way that everybody else would be resurrected whom He is comparing Himself with. Now you can read to me the Greek lexicon from the beginning to the end; but that isn’t going to convince me to believe any different about what I have said above.

 

[zerinus]

At this point I have provided the most recent Greek lexicon used in Seminaries, BDAG which says that “in Christ” in those verses refers to the body of Christ. You have provided nothing except for your unsubstantiated claim that your view is traditional. This is your proof-text and you bear the burden of proof. Back up you statement. Until you do, I must disregard your claim.

Here is BDAG again on EN (in) in this verse:

It is in English, not Greek. It applies this to 1Co 15:22:

The expression “in Christ” occurs in the New Testament with different meanings; the context determines how it is to be understood. The meaning you have given to it would apply to several occurrences of the phrase, such as the following:

Romans 8:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, …

Romans 12:

5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 1:

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, …

2 Corinthians 5:

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: …

Galatians 3:

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

But it does not apply to the following occurrences:

2 Corinthians 5:

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, …

2 Corinthians 11:

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Ephesians 1:

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Philippians 2:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

1 Corinthians 15:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In the last example, “in Christ” complements “in Adam”. It means that just as Adam was the means through which Death came into the world (to ALL men); Jesus was the means through Whom life was restored (to ALL men). In this verse the phrase “in Christ” is not used in the same sense in which it is used in the passages quoted earlier. It does not mean that only those who are “in Christ” are resurrected. It is contrasting Christ with Adam. It is saying that Christ reversed the thing that was done by Adam. Adam’s sin brought death to all mankind; so Christ’s righteousness brought life (physical life) to all mankind, without exception.

I agree that there will be a resurrection that encompasses the righteous and the unrighteous. However the first resurrection mentioned in this passage is the one to which Paul refers in 1Co 15:22. The ones in Christ are the ones who will rule with him as kings and priests in heaven. The fact that Revelation splits up the resurrection into two groups actually works against you.

No it doesn’t! The fact that there are two resurrections does not mean that the way they are resurrected would be different. They all will be resurrected in the same way; but the first group (who had been righteous, or “in Christ” if you like) will have the privilege of reigning with Christ here on earth (not in heaven) for a thousand years while the sinners will be languishing in an unhappy state in the spirit world waiting for their turn to be resurrected. After the thousand years have ended there will be a new heaven and a new earth, and all things will become new, and all the saints will dwell with God foever in heaven.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Sure, no problem. 1 Corinthians 15:20 reads as follows in the following translations:

NIV: But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
NAS: But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
ISV: But at this moment the Messiah stands risen from the dead, the first one offered in the harvest of those who have died.
GWT: But now Christ has come back from the dead. He is the very first person of those who have died to come back to life.
KJV: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
AKJ: But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.
ASV: But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
BBE: But now Christ has truly come back from the dead, the first-fruits of those who are sleeping.
DRB: But now Christ is risen from the dead, the firstfruits of them that sleep:
DBY: (But now Christ is raised from among the dead, first-fruits of those fallen asleep.
ERV: But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.
WBS: But now is Christ raised from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept.
WEY: But, in reality, Christ has risen from among the dead, being the first to do so of those who are asleep.
WEB: But now Christ has been raised from the dead. He became the first fruits of those who are asleep.
YLT: And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead—the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,

All of these verses are basically saying that Jesus was the first person to be resurrected. The underlying implication is that His resurrection sets the pattern for everybody else’s resurrection. He was resurrected in the same as everybody would be. Since His body was the same as everybody else’s, and His death was the same as everybody else’s, His coming back to life would be the same as everybody else too. That is the implication. If I said that I was the first person among invited guests that arrived at the party, that implies that we all arrived at the same party, not at different parties. Similarly when it says that He was the first person among the rest of mankind to be resurrected, that implies that He was resurrected in the same way that everybody else would be. Acts 26:23 says the same thing, but in different words:

Dan:
I agree with respect to 1Co 15 because the context are those who are “in Christ” (see my quotes from BDAG).

I asked for you to show bible versions for Acts 26:23 but instead you quote 1Co 15:20 and say that it is the same. But it is NOT the same. Acts 26:23 has the word PRWTOS for “first.” The word firstfruits in 1Co 15:20 is APARXH. They are completely different words.

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

zerinus:

1 Corinthians 15:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In the last example, “in Christ” complements “in Adam”. It means that just as Adam was the means through which Death came into the world (to ALL men); Jesus was the means through Whom life was restored (to ALL men). In this verse the phrase “in Christ” is not used in the same sense in which it is used in the passages quoted earlier. It does not mean that only those who are “in Christ” are resurrected. It is contrasting Christ with Adam. It is saying that Christ reversed the thing that was done by Adam. Adam’s sin brought death to all mankind; so Christ’s righteousness brought life (physical life) to all mankind, without exception.

Dan:
According to BDAG and also what the WTB&TS has published, “in Christ” refers to the body of Christ. In Christ does complement in Adam but not the way you depict. Look at it with the previous verse:

NRS 1 Corinthians 15:21 For = GAR since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for = GAR as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

There is a particle in Greek which is rendered “for”, and that is GAR. It is the marker for cause or reason “for” something. In verse 21 the comparison is that death came through a human being and that the resurrection comes through a human being. That is the comparison. Then the particle GAR (for) is repeated at the beginning of verse 22 linking that thought with what follows. Adam and Christ were both human beings. That is how they complement on another. The group in Adam and in Christ are not what are being equated. It is the humanity of Adam and the fact that as our redeemer Christ is also human and becomes the last Adam.

Dan

 

[PRmerger]

I just don’t see how a God of love can create someone and if that someone is disobedient–God will make him suffer forever…instead of making him as the Bible says "… return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”–Gen 3:19

It is precisely because He is a God of love that hell exists. There has to be a place for those who refuse God’s love. God says, “As you wish”.