LDS and JW's

[zerinus]

Dan:
I agree with respect to 1Co 15 because the context are those who are “in Christ” (see my quotes from BDAG).

Not true. The context is all mankind, BDAG or no BDAG. The quotes are form many reputable translations. They all support my reading that the reference is to all mankind. You can quote me BDAG until dooms day; that just is not the most reasonable inference from that scripture.

I asked for you to show bible versions for Acts 26:23 but instead you quote 1Co 15:20 and say that it is the same. But it is NOT the same.

Not correct. The second set of quotes was for Acts 26:23.

Acts 26:23 has the word PRWTOS for “first.” The word firstfruits in 1Co 15:20 is APARXH. They are completely different words.

I don’t care what word it has. I go by the English version of all the reputable translations; and they all suggest to me the same reading—that Jesus was the first person among mankind to be resurrected—the implication being that His resurrection sets the pattern for the resurrection of all mankind. He was resurrected in the same way that everyone else would be resurrected.

And I had also asked you this question:

Luke 24:

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a SPIRIT hath not FLESH and BONES, as ye see ME HAVE.

We don’t claim to know what resurrected bodies are made of, or how they function. Al we know is that they receive the same body that they had in mortality; but it is changed and glorified in ways that we do not understand and God has not revealed, which makes their bodies indestructible and immortal, and frees them from terrestrial limitations. That is all that the Lord has told us; and we don’t worry about what He hasn’t. Do you think Jesus was lying when He said that He was not a spirit, but had flesh and bones that He showed them in evidence for it? I don’t understand.

To which you have not yet given an answer.

zerinus:

1 Corinthians 15:

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

In the last example, “in Christ” complements “in Adam”. It means that just as Adam was the means through which Death came into the world (to ALL men); Jesus was the means through Whom life was restored (to ALL men). In this verse the phrase “in Christ” is not used in the same sense in which it is used in the passages quoted earlier. It does not mean that only those who are “in Christ” are resurrected. It is contrasting Christ with Adam. It is saying that Christ reversed the thing that was done by Adam. Adam’s sin brought death to all mankind; so Christ’s righteousness brought life (physical life) to all mankind, without exception.

Dan:
According to BDAG and also what the WTB&TS has published, “in Christ” refers to the body of Christ. In Christ does complement in Adam but not the way you depict. Look at it with the previous verse:

NRS 1 Corinthians 15:21 For = GAR since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; 22 for = GAR as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.

There is a particle in Greek which is rendered “for”, and that is GAR. It is the marker for cause or reason “for” something. In verse 21 the comparison is that death came through a human being and that the resurrection comes through a human being. That is the comparison. Then the particle GAR (for) is repeated at the beginning of verse 22 linking that thought with what follows. Adam and Christ were both human beings. That is how they complement on another. The group in Adam and in Christ are not what are being equated. It is the humanity of Adam and the fact that as our redeemer Christ is also human and becomes the last Adam.

Dan

Sorry Dan, I simply disagree with you. I have nothing further to say on that. I will let others decide whose arguments makes better sense.

 

[Dan_Parker]

zerinus:
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a SPIRIT hath not FLESH and BONES, as ye see ME HAVE.

We don’t claim to know what resurrected bodies are made of, or how they function. Al we know is that they receive the same body that they had in mortality; but it is changed and glorified in ways that we do not understand and God has not revealed, which makes their bodies indestructible and immortal, and frees them from terrestrial limitations. That is all that the Lord has told us; and we don’t worry about what He hasn’t. Do you think Jesus was lying when He said that He was not a spirit, but had flesh and bones that He showed them in evidence for it? I don’t understand.

To which you have not yet given an answer.

Dan:
Many bibles render this ghost and BDAG confirms this interpretation: Ghost Lk 24:37, 39. Here is the Catholic New American Bible.
NAB Luke 24:39 (1 )Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see, because **a ghost **does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have."

BDAG says on the word PHANTASMA:
Mt 14:26; Mk 6:49 (on these two pass. cp. Phlegon: 257 fgm. 36 II, 3 Jac.); Lk 24:37

PHANTASMA and PNUEMA (Phantom and Spirit) are interchangeable in some contexts.

Therefore what frightened then was the prospect that they were seeing a wicked spirit, a PHANTASMA (ie phantom).

I have already shown you that in 1Co 15 the resurrected body of Christ was not composed of the dust of the earth and we both know flesh and bones are composed of the dust of the earth.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Dan:
I asked for you to show bible versions for Acts 26:23 but instead you quote 1Co 15:20 and say that it is the same. But it is NOT the same.

zerinus:
Not correct. The second set of quotes was for Acts 26:23.

Dan:
I can’t find them. Can you post them again? I agree that he is the first to rise from the dead. I find no bible version that supports your view that say that he was first as the pattern for all those, righteous and unrighteous who will rise from the dead.

 

[zerinus]

I can’t find them. Can you post them again?

See post #356. I can’t understand how you can have missed them.

I agree that he is the first to rise from the dead. I find no bible version that supports your view that say that he was first as the pattern for all those, righteous and unrighteous who will rise from the dead.

The fact that He was the “first” implies that He sets the pattern.

 

[Dan_Parker]

See post #356. I can’t understand how you can have missed them.
The fact that He was the “first” implies that He sets the pattern.

The one who makes the argument bears the burden of proof. Here is your evidence:

All of these verses are basically saying that Jesus was the first person to be resurrected. The underlying implication is that His resurrection sets the pattern for everybody else’s resurrection. He was resurrected in the same as everybody would be. Since His body was the same as everybody else’s, and His death was the same as everybody else’s, His coming back to life would be the same as everybody else too. That is the implication. If I said that I was the first person among invited guests that arrived at the party, that implies that we all arrived at the same party, not at different parties. Similarly when it says that He was the first person among the rest of mankind to be resurrected, that implies that He was resurrected in the same way that everybody else would be. Acts 26:23 says the same thing, but in different words:

NIV: that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles.
NAS: that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.
ISV: that the Messiah would suffer and be the first to rise from the dead and would bring light both to our people and to the gentiles.
GWT: They said that the Messiah would suffer and be the first to come back to life and would spread light to Jewish and non-Jewish people.
KJV: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
AKJ: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light to the people, and to the Gentiles.
ASV: how that the Christ must suffer, and how that he first by the resurrection of the dead should proclaim light both to the people and to the Gentiles.
BBE: That the Christ would go through pain, and being the first to come back from the dead, would give light to the people and to the Gentiles.
DRB: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light to the people, and to the Gentiles.
DBY: namely, whether Christ should suffer; whether he first, through resurrection of the dead, should announce light both to the people and to the nations.
ERV: how that the Christ must suffer, and how that he first by the resurrection of the dead should proclaim light both to the people and to the Gentiles.
WBS: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light to the people, and to the Gentiles.
WEY: since the Christ was to be a suffering Christ, and by coming back from the dead was then to be the first to proclaim a message of light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.
WEB: how the Christ must suffer, and how, by the resurrection of the dead, he would be first to proclaim light both to these people and to the Gentiles.
YLT: that the Christ is to suffer, whether first by a rising from the dead, he is about to proclaim light to the people and to the nations.

An underlying implication is not proof. None of these verses say that Christ is the pattern for everyone who will be resurrected, both the righteous and the unrighteous.

 

[zerinus]

The one who makes the argument bears the burden of proof. Here is your evidence:

An underlying implication is not proof. None of these verses say that Christ is the pattern for everyone who will be resurrected, both the righteous and the unrighteous.

That is how Christians throughout history have understood those scriptures to mean. The JWs are the ones who are introducing an innovation here. Throughout Christian history resurrection has been understood to be physical, and the same for Christ as for the rest of mankind. No other Christian groups before the JWs have believed that Jesus was resurrected differently from the way the rest of mankind will be. There have been those who have denied the resurrection altogether, especially in recent times. But the JW belief is a complete innovation in Christianity; therefore the burden of proof is on them. And their “proofs,” if it can be called such, are not convincing.

 

[dj_dave]

That is how Christians throughout history have understood those scriptures to mean.The JWs are the ones who are introducing an innovation here. Throughout Christian history resurrection has been understood to be physical, and the same for Christ as for the rest of mankind. No other Christian groups before the JWs have believed that Jesus was resurrected differently from the way the rest of mankind will be. … But the JW belief is a complete innovation in Christianity; therefore the burden of proof is on them.

And their “proofs,” if it can be called such, are not convincing.

NOTICE “FIRSTFRUITS” IN THE FOLLOWING:

Jesus’ resurrection was foreshadowed during A festival. The day after Nisan 14 saw the beginning of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes. On the next day, Nisan 16, Israelites brought a sheaf of the firstfruits of the barley harvest, the earliest harvest in Israel, for the priest to wave before Jehovah. (Leviticus 23:6-14) How appropriate that in the year 33 C.E., on that very day, Jehovah thwarted Satan’s vicious efforts to silence forever his “faithful and true witness”! On Nisan 16, 33 C.E., Jehovah resurrected Jesus from the dead to immortal spirit life.—Revelation 3:14; 1 Peter 3:18.

Jesus became “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.” (1Corinthians 15:20) Unlike those who had been resurrected before, Jesus did not die again. Rather, he ascended to heaven to Jehovah’s right hand, where he waited until he would be installed as King of Jehovah’s heavenly Kingdom. (Psalm 110:1; Acts 2:32, 33; Hebrews 10:12, 13) Since his installment as King, Jesus is now in a position to bruise the great enemy, Satan, in the head permanently and to destroy his seed.—Revelation 11:15, 18; 20:1-3,10.

Jesus was the Seed who was promised in Eden and by means of whom Jehovah would “break up the works of the Devil.” (1 John 3:8) However, when Jehovah spoke to Abraham, He indicated that Abraham’s “seed” would be more than just one person. It would be “like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore.” (Genesis 22:17) The appearance of other members of the “seed” was foreshadowed by yet another joyful festival. Fifty days after Nisan 16, Israel celebrated the Festival of Weeks. The Law about this states: “To the day after the seventh sabbath you should count, fifty days, and you must present a new grain offering to Jehovah. Out of your dwelling places you should bring two loaves as a wave offering. Of two tenths of an ephah of fine flour they should prove to be. They should be baked leavened, as first ripe fruits to Jehovah.”—Leviticus 23:16, 17,20.

When Jesus was on earth, the Festival of Weeks was known as Pentecost (from a Greek word meaning “fiftieth”). At Pentecost 33 C.E., the greater High Priest, the resurrected Jesus Christ, poured out holy spirit upon the small group of 120 disciples gathered in Jerusalem. Thus those disciples became anointed sons of God and brothers of Jesus Christ. (Romans 8:15-17) They became a new nation, “the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:16) From small beginnings, that nation would finally number 144,000.—Revelation 7:1-4.

The congregation of anointed Christians was foreshadowed by the two leavened loaves waved before Jehovah each Pentecost. The loaves’ being leavened showed that anointed Christians would still have the leaven of inherited sin. Nevertheless, they could approach Jehovah on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. (Romans 5:1, 2) Why two loaves? That may have pointed to the fact that the anointed sons of God would eventually be drawn from two groups—first from natural Jews and later from Gentiles.—Galatians 3:26-29; Ephesians 2:13-18.

The two loaves offered at Pentecost came from the firstfruits of the wheat harvest. Correspondingly, those spirit-begotten Christians are called “certain firstfruits of his creatures.” (James 1:18) They are the first to have their sins forgiven on the basis of Jesus’ shed blood, and that makes it possible for them to be granted immortal life in the heavens, where they rule with Jesus in his Kingdom. (1 Corinthians 15:53; Philippians 3:20, 21; Revelation 20:6) In that position, one day soon they will “shepherd the [nations] with an iron rod” and see ‘Satan crushed under their feet.’ (Revelation 2:26, 27; Romans 16:20) The apostle John said: “These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.”—Revelation 14:4.

 

[zerinus]

The day after Nisan 14 saw the beginning of the Festival of Unfermented Cakes. On the next day, Nisan 16, Israelites brought a sheaf of the firstfruits of the barley harvest, the earliest harvest in Israel, for the priest to wave before Jehovah. (Leviticus 23:6-14)

Good point. The “firstfruits” of the harvest was the first of the fruit that ripened, or that was picked. Now the “firstfruit” was identical in nature to the later fruit. The actual fruit was not any different. The only differece was that it ripened (or was picked) sooner, hence it was called the “firstfruit”. To carry that analogy over to the resurrection, Jesus is called the “firstfruits” of the resurrection because His resurrection came first. It does not mean that His resurrection was different. On the contrary, the very fact that it is called the “firstfruits” implies that His resurrection was the same as everybody else’s resurrection. It just came first. There was no difference between the way He was resurrected, and everybody else would be resurrected.

 

[zerinus]

zerinus;5645191:

Again, we go by what the scriptures say:

Luke 24:

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a SPIRIT hath not FLESH and BONES, as ye see ME HAVE.

We don’t claim to know what resurrected bodies are made of, or how they function. Al we know is that they receive the same body that they had in mortality; but it is changed and glorified in ways that we do not understand and God has not revealed, which makes their bodies indestructible and immortal, and frees them from terrestrial limitations. That is all that the Lord has told us; and we don’t worry about what He hasn’t. Do you think Jesus was lying when He said that He was not a spirit, but had flesh and bones that He showed them in evidence for it? I don’t understand.

Many bibles render this ghost and BDAG confirms this interpretation: Ghost Lk 24:37, 39. Here is the Catholic New American Bible.
NAB Luke 24:39 (1 )Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see, because **a ghost **does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have."

BDAG says on the word PHANTASMA:
Mt 14:26; Mk 6:49 (on these two pass. cp. Phlegon: 257 fgm. 36 II, 3 Jac.); Lk 24:37

PHANTASMA and PNUEMA (Phantom and Spirit) are interchangeable in some contexts.

Therefore what frightened then was the prospect that they were seeing a wicked spirit, a PHANTASMA (ie phantom).

That is an utter irrelevance, and does not answer my question at all. I suggest you go back and read my post again, and give it a proper reply if you can, or admit that you don’t have one.

I have already shown you that in 1Co 15 the resurrected body of Christ was not composed of the dust of the earth and we both know flesh and bones are composed of the dust of the earth.

I have no idea what His body was made of, or how it was constructed. I only know what the Bible says—that it was the same body that He had before He died, and He had FLESH and BONES in His body as He did before.

 

[Dan_Parker]

That is an utter irrelevance, and does not answer my question at all. I suggest you go back and read my post again, and give it a proper reply if you can, or admit that you don’t have one.

I have no idea what His body was made of, or how it was constructed. I only know what the Bible says—that it was the same body that He had before He died, and He had FLESH and BONES in His body as He did before.

My post does refute the notion that because Jesus used the word PNEUMA (spirit) and said it did not have flesh and bones that he was referring to the resurrection body. The word in this context signifies Phantasma or Ghost and therefore may not be used to prove your point.

 

[dj_dave]

to God and to the Lamb.”—Revelation 14:4.

• “These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.”—Revelation 14:4.*

Who are the 144,000

Consider some of the hints given in the wonderful mystery. (Rev 1 :1)

(Revelation 14:1-5) …And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

WHERE? (Mt Zion Heb 12:22 (–But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels,)

) …***And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song *but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

Bought how? 1 Cor 6:20 "for YOU were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in the body of YOU people." by Jesus’ blood

4*These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins

Why would it say “defile themselves with women?” being with a woman is not defiling oneself

Are they literal virgins?.Remember what paul said "(2 Corinthians 11:2)

*For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU ***as a chaste virgin **to the Christ.

(Women in this case would be false idols) how do we know?

‘not defiling themselves with women’ and their being “virgins” would not mean that none of these 144,000 persons had ever been married, for the Scriptures do not forbid persons on earth who are to be joint heirs with Christ to marry. (1Ti 3:2; 4:1,*3) Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female” as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned. (Ga 3:28)

The “women” therefore must be symbolic women, doubtless organizations such as Babylon the Great and her ‘daughters,’ false religious organizations, the joining of and participation in which would prevent one from being spotless. (Re 17:5, 18:16,22,23) This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.

*These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. *

Remember the covenant Jesus made with his disciples? (Luke 22:28, 29)

28*“However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29*and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,

These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

(James 1:18) Because he willed it, he brought us forth by the word of truth, for us to be certain firstfruits of his creatures. Compare Heb 3:1 “Heavenly calling”

5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

(Ephesians 5:27) that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Just a coincidence? We don’t think so…Your turn–I think I know what is coming

 

[zerinus]

My post does refute the notion that because Jesus used the word PNEUMA (spirit) and said it did not have flesh and bones that he was referring to the resurrection body. The word in this context signifies Phantasma or Ghost and therefore may not be used to prove your point.

And exactly whom are you trying to fool with that kind of stuff? I don’t think it is me. So I am just wondering whom else it could be.

 

[zerinus]

• “These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits* to God and to the Lamb.”—Revelation 14:4.

Who are the 144,000

Consider some of the hints given in the wonderful mystery. (Rev 1 :1)

(Revelation 14:1-5) …And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.

WHERE? (Mt Zion Heb 12:22 (–But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels,)

) …***And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song ***but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

Bought how? 1 Cor 6:20 "for YOU were bought with a price. By all means, glorify God in the body of YOU people." by Jesus’ blood

4*These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins

Why would it say “defile themselves with women?” being with a woman is not defiling oneself

Are they literal virgins?.Remember what paul said "(2 Corinthians 11:2)

For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU ***as a chaste virgin ***to the Christ.

(Women in this case would be false idols) how do we know?

‘not defiling themselves with women’ and their being “virgins” would not mean that none of these 144,000 persons had ever been married, for the Scriptures do not forbid persons on earth who are to be joint heirs with Christ to marry. (1Ti 3:2; 4:1,*3) Neither would it imply that all the 144,000 were men, for “there is neither male nor female” as far as the spiritual relationship of Christ’s joint heirs is concerned. (Ga 3:28)

The “women” therefore must be symbolic women, doubtless organizations such as Babylon the Great and her ‘daughters,’ false religious organizations, the joining of and participation in which would prevent one from being spotless. (Re 17:5, 18:16,22,23) This symbolic description harmonizes with the requirement in the Law that the high priest of Israel take only a virgin for his wife, for Jesus Christ is Jehovah’s great High Priest.—Le 21:10, 14; 2Co 11:2; Heb 7:26.

These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes.

Remember the covenant Jesus made with his disciples? (Luke 22:28, 29)

28*“However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; 29*and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom,

These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb,

(James 1:18) Because he willed it, he brought us forth by the word of truth, for us to be certain firstfruits of his creatures. Compare Heb 3:1 “Heavenly calling”

5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.

(Ephesians 5:27) that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Just a coincidence? We don’t think so…Your turn–I think I know what is coming

Ditto.

 

[Dan_Parker]

And exactly whom are you trying to fool with that kind of stuff? I don’t think it is me. So I am just wondering whom else it could be.

Just to let you know I am unsubscribing from this thread. If you know someone who is LDS and who would rather discuss theology in depth than make unkind remarks, please send them my way.

 

[zerinus]

Just to let you know I am unsubscribing from this thread.

Yes, very wise.