LDS and the bible vs BOM

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jane_doe said:
As I said in post 281:
My point here is to compare the beliefs of a** common-Catholic-person today** (RebeccaJ) with an estimates of a common-Catholic-person’s beliefs in 1600.

It is an apple-to-apples comparison. Unless RebeccaJ is a professional theologian and in running for sainthood, comparing her to Augustine or other saints is not apples-to-apples.
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AND apples to apples as Rebecca explained to the changing dogma of the Mormon Church with the unchanging dogma of the Catholic CHURCH
 
jane_doe said:
And the Catholic church excommunicated him for his beliefs.
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The Galileo Affair is something I’ve read a great deal about. I’ve wanted to understand because it is one of those anti-Catholic rocks people love to throw when they “got nothin’.”

Your statement shows a great deal ignorance about the affair. You would save yourself much embarrassment on a Catholic forum to never speak of it again.
 
jane_doe said:
As I said in post 281:
My point here is to compare the beliefs of a** common-Catholic-person today** (RebeccaJ) with an estimates of a common-Catholic-person’s beliefs in 1600.

It is an apple-to-apples comparison. Unless RebeccaJ is a professional theologian and in running for sainthood, comparing her to Augustine or other saints is not apples-to-apples.
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Apples to apples you say? Okay. Rebecca is a educated and literate woman who also owns many books to include a copy to the Scriptures. So if we are looking for her peer group in the 1600s we’re not going to be looking at the common Catholic. We are likely looking at nobility or the wealthiest of merchant families (if she was male, then would could add theologian/educator/philosopher to that peer group, but alas her gender plays a role here in your comparison). So even you are trying to compare dissimilar things. If you want a true apples to apples look at things you have to look at everything.
 
jane_doe said:
As I said in post 281:
My point here is to compare the beliefs of a** common-Catholic-person today** (RebeccaJ) with an estimates of a common-Catholic-person’s beliefs in 1600.

It is an apple-to-apples comparison. Unless RebeccaJ is a professional theologian and in running for sainthood, comparing her to Augustine or other saints is not apples-to-apples.
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Jane - Just FYI RebeccaJ is “running” for sainthood and she really does know her theology so…I’m gonna go with apples to apples.

Tom - I believe you may have misunderstood RebeccaJ point with her comment about liars. I don’t think it was directed at me.
 
Stephen168 said:
The Galileo Affair is something I’ve read a great deal about. I’ve wanted to understand because it is one of those anti-Catholic rocks people love to throw when they “got nothin’.”

Your statement shows a great deal ignorance about the affair. You would save yourself much embarrassment on a Catholic forum to never speak of it again.
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🤷 It is how people are taught in our once majority Protestant society. Mormonism comes from that line.

The other oft cited Mormon wrong-history is that Tynsdale was executed by the Catholic church.
 
Horton said:
Jane - Just FYI RebeccaJ is “running” for sainthood and she really does know her theology so…I’m gonna go with apples to apples.
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Yes, we are ALL called to holiness and sainthood whether we become a saint officially acknowledged by the Church or not.
 
TOmNossor said:
Catholics have not always or universally done this. The CHANGE just predated your paying attention or you ignore it.
The Pope is not infallible in his geo-centrism, but such was not the opinion of Doctor of the Church St. Bellarmine who said geo-centrism was “De fide.” Now the celebrated scriptural reference that made geocentrism true is just allegory.
Again, I am not saying that such shouldn’t be viewed as allegory, just that you are not paying attention to your own tradition.
Some Catholics refuse to follow the majority of Bishops in this changing view and are thus geocentrist today. One of my favorite Catholic apologists from 10 years ago, Robert Sungenis, makes all of this very clear. Sungenis has further departed from Catholic Answers over the last 10 years, but he, Scott Hahn, and Peter Kreft predate Jimmy Akin as pillars of Catholic defense.
Atheist consistently say, “The BOM must be understood as a history of ALL North and South American” AND the “The Bible must teach geocentrism.” Thinkers in my church and your church have “left” over such things and other thinkers have stayed. I say you are inconsistent, but maybe you just don’t know the history.
Charity, TOm
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The Catholic Church has no doctrinal declaration on the matter. You can be Catholic, and view Genesis as a Sacred Myth (myth, as in genre of literature) or you can view it literally.
 
Horton said:
Tom - I believe you may have misunderstood RebeccaJ point with her comment about liars. I don’t think it was directed at me.
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Haha, yes, Tom’s argument was, when caught in a lie just say it is true from a certain POV.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Most Catholics of the time viewed the creation account in Genesis as placing the earth at the center of creation, while some Catholics viewed the creation account of Genesis as not indicating anything of the kind.

Those who put Galileo, under what we would call today a house arrest, were strong believers of earth being the center, and they had as well the scientific backing for their beliefs. (Galileo’s heliocentrism was not just controversial for religious, it was for the sciences too.)

The Catholic Church had, and still has, no doctrine on the matter.
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Stephen168 and Rebecca,
You (Stephen) have claimed you know a great deal about the Galileo affair. Perhaps Rebecca should be corrected by you instead of me.
I know of virtually no church authorities before Galileo that taught anything but Geocentrism. Please correct me if I have missed any.
The Doctor of the Church St. Robert Bellamire (also a Catholic Cardinal) made it clear that the church has always taught that Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Josue literally teach that the earth is the center and the sun revolves around it. The Pope Paul V agreed. Note: I am not saying that Paul V or Bellamire were INFALLIBLE per Catholic teaching in this positions. I am saying that all Catholics believed and taught this before Galileo and many Fathers made it clear that this was the teaching of scripture.
So, while I think it likely true that many Catholics in the pew believed in a literal 7 day creationism, such might be harder to prove than the clear teaching concerning geocentrism.
Catholic teaching regarding what to take literally and figuratively concerning scripture and geocentrism changed during the handful of years around Galileo’s time. 100 years before Galileo all Catholics believed scripture demanded geocentrism. 100 years after Galileo’s death most Catholics believed that such scriptures should be taken allegorically. This is CHANGE.
Charity, TOm
 
RebeccaJ said:
Haha, yes, Tom’s argument was, when caught in a lie just say it is true from a certain POV.
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I am glad you clarified that you did in fact intent to call me a liar.
I am however still unsure what I lied about so please elaborate because I want to know.
Charity, TOm
 
TOmNossor said:
I am glad you clarified that you did in fact intent to call me a liar.
I am however still unsure what I lied about so please elaborate because I want to know.
Charity, TOm
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I didn’t call you liar. I said your defense of Mormon truth changes are that it is always true, from a certain POV.

Truth for you then, is subjective, rather than objective. What is the object of truth for a Mormon?
 
TOmNossor said:
Stephen168 and Rebecca,
You (Stephen) have claimed you know a great deal about the Galileo affair. Perhaps Rebecca should be corrected by you instead of me.
I know of virtually no church authorities before Galileo that taught anything but Geocentrism. Please correct me if I have missed any.
The Doctor of the Church St. Robert Bellamire (also a Catholic Cardinal) made it clear that the church has always taught that Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Josue literally teach that the earth is the center and the sun revolves around it. The Pope Paul V agreed. Note: I am not saying that Paul V or Bellamire were INFALLIBLE per Catholic teaching in this positions. I am saying that all Catholics believed and taught this before Galileo and many Fathers made it clear that this was the teaching of scripture.
So, while I think it likely true that many Catholics in the pew believed in a literal 7 day creationism, such might be harder to prove than the clear teaching concerning geocentrism.
Catholic teaching regarding what to take literally and figuratively concerning scripture and geocentrism changed during the handful of years around Galileo’s time. 100 years before Galileo all Catholics believed scripture demanded geocentrism. 100 years after Galileo’s death most Catholics believed that such scriptures should be taken allegorically. This is CHANGE.
Charity, TOm
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The history of heliocentricism and the RCC begins with Copernicus, whose scientific discoveries and ideas regarding the sun as the center, were received favorably and with interest by the Pope and Bishops, and encouragement to publish his work without delay.
 
jane_doe said:
Iepuras, I’m here to talk to people: exchanges back and forth with people listening to each other. I don’t hang out on ex-Mormon, ex-Catholic, or ex-anything-else pages because people there don’t want to talk, they just want to vent.

I did not know if Chris-WA wanted me to reply and to listen to my answer, or if he just wanted to say what he said. Hence why I asked if he wanted me to reply or not.
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What Chris said was true, but could have been said in a more charitable way. I live in SLC and most of my friends are Mormons. They are very kind and unselfish people, and some are more “Catholic” than I. We share many of the same beliefs such as same sex marriage, love of the family, and others. I think though that perhaps you may just want to pray about this. The Holy Spirit works in many ways. I’d also suggest that if you haven’t, sometime just attend a Catholic Mass. We have to remember though that Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life”. This means that no other human through the the ages can add to this truth. Also, Jesus did found our Church. No other Person such as Buddah, Mohammed, Martin Luther or such ever rose from the dead, that founded a Church. Jesus was the only person who was born for the intention of dying for us someday.m God bless.
 
RebeccaJ said:
I didn’t call you liar. I said your defense of Mormon truth changes are that it is always true, from a certain POV.

Truth for you then, is subjective, rather than objective. What is the object of truth for a Mormon?
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Where did I say from a certain POV???
I was unaware I said that, but I might have meant something different.
You sure did seem to celebrate my dishonestly, but I am certain I must INTEND to lie. So I hope you will delineate what you think I said as I truly do not know.
Charity, TOm
 
TOmNossor said:
Where did I say from a certain POV???
I was unaware I said that, but I might have meant something different.
You sure did seem to celebrate my dishonestly, but I am certain I must INTEND to lie. So I hope you will delineate what you think I said as I truly do not know.
Charity, TOm
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You see what you want to see in my comments. I can’t help that.

The conversation was about Mormon history, and your statements that history proves Mormonism to be true. The Mormon history narrative changes, according to the views of its leadership, and therefore it’s followers, of which you are one. The narrative changes, but each opposing narrative always, for a Mormon, is true. Opposing narratives can only be true, simultaneously, when each opposing narrative is viewed as true, from a certain POV.
 
TOmNossor said:
Stephen168 and Rebecca,
You (Stephen) have claimed you know a great deal about the Galileo affair. Perhaps Rebecca should be corrected by you instead of me.
I know of virtually no church authorities before Galileo that taught anything but Geocentrism. Please correct me if I have missed any.
The Doctor of the Church St. Robert Bellamire (also a Catholic Cardinal) made it clear that the church has always taught that Genesis, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Josue literally teach that the earth is the center and the sun revolves around it. The Pope Paul V agreed. Note: I am not saying that Paul V or Bellamire were INFALLIBLE per Catholic teaching in this positions. I am saying that all Catholics believed and taught this before Galileo and many Fathers made it clear that this was the teaching of scripture.
So, while I think it likely true that many Catholics in the pew believed in a literal 7 day creationism, such might be harder to prove than the clear teaching concerning geocentrism.
Catholic teaching regarding what to take literally and figuratively concerning scripture and geocentrism changed during the handful of years around Galileo’s time. 100 years before Galileo all Catholics believed scripture demanded geocentrism. 100 years after Galileo’s death most Catholics believed that such scriptures should be taken allegorically. This is CHANGE.
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You’re wrong
 
TOmNossor said:
100 years before Galileo all Catholics believed scripture demanded geocentrism. 100 years after Galileo’s death most Catholics believed that such scriptures should be taken allegorically. This is CHANGE.
Charity, TOm
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Not a change in faith or morals. So your point is…?
 
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