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SteveVH
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Because that is how God speaks, is it not?
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ffg
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It’s easy to forget that happenings read (or not) would have implications not necessarily written. History is more than what’s in the books. That’s where reason comes to play.
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twopekinguys
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That’s why I put the word translation in quotes.
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XuDan
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Yeah I figured that was what you were eluding to, I just thought I’d make certain that the term was being used quite loosely.That’s why I put the word translation in quotes.
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jane_doe
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Iepuras, I’m sorry you were treated badly by people when you left the LDS church. People were wrong to have treated you that way. Personally, if some guy would have asked me “why is your husband allowing you to do this” I would have thrown something at him! Have you had your name removed from the church rolls? If not I would recommend doing so to reduce visits.
Moving on for now—
Question for people here: when I was 13 years old, my Catholic friend asked me to come to her confirmation. In your opinion, was she wrong to have done so? Additional details (if relevant), she did not ask my parents about this (she did not know my parents), and yes she knew I was Mormon, and we were medium-level close friends (only met a few months previous). In your opinion, was she wrong to invite me to her confirmation?
I look forward to hearing what you guys think.
As to how the story played out: I was thrilled to be invited to her confirmation and joyfully attended. I was honored that she wanted to share something she felt was so precious with me. Yeah, we disagree about some things, but I my mind that was no reason to stop us from being friends or sharing deeply held beliefs. Over the years I attended many masses with her, Easter celebrations, youth groups, weddings, and Stations of the Cross 7 years in a row. I was honored to be in attendance.
She and I became best friends for many years, partially because of faith and the freedom we felt to talk about our whole selves with each other. Around her, I had no reason to hide my passion about God or my doubts when the road was rocky. She likewise shared with me and I learned a great deal about Catholicism and grew an appreciation of her faith.
Nowadays, when people approach me about faith-matters (wherever the venue) I am happy talk with them: to share my faith of God and learn about that person’s faith too. I find it to be a great experience and thank that person for their time.
Though, admittedly there are points when someone will want to talk to me and I’m not in the mood to chat (either too busy or just feeling anti-social). In which case I don’t answer the door, or say “no thank you” before leaving. People are still trying to be nice and share their love of God, so there’s no reason to get mad just because I happen to be in rush right then.
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jane_doe
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Re: XuDan and others on history matters: The last ten posts are so have hit a wide range of topics. In order to have an efficient conversation, if you want to ask me something, would you mind posting a specific question? That way I can address what you want me too, rather than just guessing.
IN general, I think that we all (myself included) could be better about listening specifically to what people are saying, instead of half-reading and then assuming the rest. Shall we try to be better about that?
IN general, I think that we all (myself included) could be better about listening specifically to what people are saying, instead of half-reading and then assuming the rest. Shall we try to be better about that?
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twopekinguys
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The quick and speedy answer to your question has to do with intent.
If she invited you to her confirmation with the intent of getting you to convert, then that would be wrong. I
If she invited you with the intent in simply sharing in the event, with no intent of getting you to convert, that would be fine.
I’m guessing you weren’t “love bombed” after the confirmation. Where I, was mobbed after attending a sacrament meeting…
See the difference?
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jane_doe
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Ah, a specific question!
Sorry, even if God Himself were to come down and tell me why, I probably still wouldn’t care what the answer was.
I don’t know and I don’t care.
Sorry, even if God Himself were to come down and tell me why, I probably still wouldn’t care what the answer was.
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XuDan
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I haven’t specifically asked you anything, however, if you feel as though you want to tackle some questions you need look no further than post 1. If you want to answer questions/doubts/challenges put fourth by me specifically, then see posts 4 and 19. I won’t take any offense if you decline to put forth answers. As you’ve already stated, the nature of the discussion is boring to you, and I wouldn’t impose a conversation on you that you were disinclined to have. However, understand, as one of the sole LDS representatives participating in this thread you will be regularly “invited” to speak to the topic, the points and counter-points presented.
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XuDan
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Context of your relationship is important here - first you are not strangers, this changes the dynamics a lot. Secondly, it is a youth asking another youth, as opposed to an adult asking an youth. Third, you are semi close friends. In this context is is totally appropriate that she ask you to come - so long as she is not doing so with the pretense or intentions to convert or proselytize to you.
Obviously at that age you would need your parents permission.
Now let’s counter with a situation that happened this past Saturday in my neighborhood. My daughters were approached by a woman who would now be (recently “called” into the position) their third hour teacher. I know the woman in passing. She approached my daughters and told them that she misses them at church and asked them if they want to go to church again. I poked my head out of the garage because I heard someone talking and interrupted. First off it is inappropriate for an adult to engage a child like that without parental consent especially after they have been told numerous times to leave us alone. Secondly, we have not been a part of the LDS church for 7 years, that kind of soliciting to minors and harassment of a family is entirely inappropriate. So much for the 11th article of faith - I do not feel as though my right to worship according to the dictates of my own conscious is being respected.
All that said, we are quite off topic. As to avoid a complete thread-jacking perhaps we could create a dedicated thread to this, in the context of the ethics of proselytizing and the LDS church? I for one would find it to be an interesting conversation and would love to hear your perspectives.
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jane_doe
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That might be a good idea, if you want to open up (I don’t know how to start new threads on CAF).
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XuDan
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No problem, the new topic can be found here ----> (click me to go to new thread), it is the same forum as this thread for future note.
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Horton
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Wow! When God answers a question, prayer, request with any answer, it is the only thing I care about. Doing God’s will in all things is the only important thing in my life. It is what gives me the strength and knowledge to do all those daily things that occupy our lives.
I will pray for you.
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jane_doe
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I’m not quite following you… come again?
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Horton
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You said…
I find it disturbing a person of a religious faith that claims to believe in God would not care what He says.
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jane_doe
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Ok, note to myself: keep posts here to the bare-minimum without any extra illustrations because people interrupt it differently than what I mean to say.
Horton, obviously I would care if God visited me and told me something! I would remember it and hold it close. But I don’t see how the information “why did JS translate the BoM into Shakespeare-English instead of pre-Civil-War American” would directly effect my walk with God (hence my lack of interest). But even without an application for that knowledge, I would listen if God told me to.
Horton, obviously I would care if God visited me and told me something! I would remember it and hold it close. But I don’t see how the information “why did JS translate the BoM into Shakespeare-English instead of pre-Civil-War American” would directly effect my walk with God (hence my lack of interest). But even without an application for that knowledge, I would listen if God told me to.
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Stevenrushing
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Concerning the KJV language found in the BoM:
The vast majority of Protestant churches at the time would have used the KJV, and their preachers would have preached in that type of language. All prayers would have been in Thees and Thous. (I grew up Baptist and most prayers even in the early 80s had that type of language.)
A Mormon might say that the BoM was given to JS in that “formal” language by God so that it would be taken seriously as scripture by the contemporary religions.
A nonMormon might say that the BoM was written that way by the writer (probably not JS, he didn’t have the education, but someone) so that it could be taken seriously as scripture by the contemporary religions.
Either way, the language was necessary and appropriate for anything to be taken seriously as Scripture in the early 1800s.
The vast majority of Protestant churches at the time would have used the KJV, and their preachers would have preached in that type of language. All prayers would have been in Thees and Thous. (I grew up Baptist and most prayers even in the early 80s had that type of language.)
A Mormon might say that the BoM was given to JS in that “formal” language by God so that it would be taken seriously as scripture by the contemporary religions.
A nonMormon might say that the BoM was written that way by the writer (probably not JS, he didn’t have the education, but someone) so that it could be taken seriously as scripture by the contemporary religions.
Either way, the language was necessary and appropriate for anything to be taken seriously as Scripture in the early 1800s.
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TOmNossor
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Horton,
I would not read her statement anyway close to how you read it.
I would instead see that what was said means that the specifics of Old English vs. 1830’s English in the BOM is of so little consequence that it would not have an impact on her faith commitments. That is quite a reasonable stance IMO. Perhaps it could be better stated by suggesting that God commenting on such a matter seems to be quite unlikely especially in light of his children’s lack of concern over such a matter.
I unlike some LDS enjoy thinking about the history and questions we discuss here. Admittedly my focus has been more on 1st – 4th century Christianity than 19th century Mormonism, but I do not agree that history is the enemy of Mormonism. LDS historians have been plumbing the origins of the CoJCoLDS for a long time. Most informed critics and members would list Richard Bushman as the preeminent historian of Joseph Smith and early Mormonism. Dr. Bushman would find the idea that history is the enemy of Mormonism quite out of alignment with his experiences.
The historicity of the BOM is an interesting topic. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I find 2nd Temple Judaism connection illustrated by non-Mormon Margaret Barker to be interesting. I find geographical old world connections. I also find the work of Sorensen and Gartner compelling. I recognize KJV language in the BOM and other 19th century idioms, but my view of divine assisted “translation” does not preclude such things. What I see as virtually impossible is the ancient aspect of the BOM finding their way into a book naturalistically authored in the 19th century. John Clark (LDS Mesoamerican archeologists) took 19th century criticisms of the BOM and showed how archeological discoveries have validated the BOM and removed criticisms. If the BOM were a fraud one would expect advancement in archeology to multiply the criticism not diminish them.
I am a big fan of the Moroni Promise from the BOM. I think it is a valid way of knowing. I think it is a Biblical way of knowing. I have often seen similar things heralded by non-LDS in a non-LDS context and have only seen it disparaged in a specifically anti-LDS context. So my family members and ward members who believe solely in response to Moroni’s Promise are on sure footing IMO (I do not think any specific explanation can be offered or should be offered to explain why any specific person does not experience what so many LDS have experienced). But Moroni’s Promise has not been the only way or even the most prevalent way I have approached these questions. It is history and philosophy that have provided great support to my faith.
I choose to believe folks who claim to have found just the opposite to be true. Usually if and when I plumb the depths of their problems, I find beliefs linked to the BOM or the CoJCoLDS that I often never held. I am reminded of my Ultra-Trad Catholic (Vatican II deniers and Sedavacantists) friends, but I think such fundamentalism is even less at home within the CoJCoLDS. We have no inerrant books or infallible people/councils. What we have is revelation to be delivered to the entire world from God. This moves us forward and can even correct “philosophies of men.” Do I think the BOM describes all of North and South America? Certainly not. But, do I believe the evidence suggests it is an ancient book that could not have been produced naturalistically in upstate New York? Yes I do.
Charity, TOm
P.S. I wrote the above before Jane Doe responded!
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lax16
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Taken serious by Protestants only? What about Catholics?
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Stevenrushing
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The founders and initial converts to Mormonism came from Protestant faiths, and hence they wrote from a largely protestant point-of-view (although no Mormon today would consider themselves to be protestant). The people that they initially took the news of the restoration to would have been their protestant friends and family.
I did not mean to leave 18th century Catholics out. They just weren’t on the agenda of 18th century Mormons (except in a negative manner, sadly).
I am very pro-Catholic, please don’t take offense. =)
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