LDS and the bible vs BOM

[zaffiroborant]

I shall turn the same question to you: why is gossiping not a mortal sin?

(As to my original post, I said the list was non-exclusive. There are MANY ways to sin horribly)

I never said gossiping isn’t a mortal sin, it certainly can be in Catholic teaching, but you are not thrown out of the church for mortal sin. You may put yourself in a position where you should refrain from the Eucharist but you are not tossed aside.

 

[iepuras]

I never said gossiping isn’t a mortal sin, it certainly can be in Catholic teaching.

Exactly. It is something I would take to the comfessional.

Jane, the question is why is gossip considered less of a sin in the LDS church and not required to confess to an LDS bishop when it directly violates one of the 10 commandments and can be extraordinarily damaging to the victim?

 

[jane_doe]

In the Catholic church the fact that you cared/worried/wanted to make the effort to go and confess your sins is almost always considered as all three of your steps, and so by your voluntary act of confession you do not have to prove that you “1*) realizes they messed up, 2) feel that this is wrong, 3) stop the sin?*”. This is not the way it happens in the LDS church, within the LDS church you may (or may not) have to prove to the bishop that you “1) realizes they messed up, 2) feel that this is wrong, 3) stop the sin?”

Ah ha! I now realize that we are talking about two different things.

I’m referring to “repentance” as the whole processing (shown below in blue/red), and you’re referring to “repentance” to mean specifically the part where ecclesiastical authority is involved (shown below in red)

(This is my list from earlier)

1. Recognizing that what you’re doing is a sin.
2. Feeling godly sorrow and the need for your savior. Invite Him into your heart.
3. Forsaking the sin.
4. Confessing the sin to the Lord, and in some cases other people (depending on the sin and who’s involved).
   New addition: 4.5) In the sin is serious (mortal in Catholic wording), confession includes talking to ecclesiastical authority. In Catholicism this is simply go to confession. In Mormonism a bishop may have additional steps involved.
5. When possible, make reconciliation. Example: returning something you stole.
6. Accepting the Lord’s forgiveness and forgiving yourself. Part of this is partaking of the Lord’s Supper for absolution of sins and renewing that sacred relationship (last part Jane-Doe speaking).

So that’s why we’re having such a disconnect.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You don’t see repentance as a process at all? I’m confused / skeptical of that claim.

Say person commits sin. Is there not a process where this person’s 1) realizes they messed up, 2) feel that this is wrong, 3) stop the sin?

It seems to me that those would be essential. After all, Catholic confession is NOT a drive-through-and-keep-doing-what-your-doing type thing (to my understanding anyways, correct me if I’m wrong).

Yes, 123 are the responsibility of the penetrant. A priest doesn’t ask if the person has done 123. It is just how Catholics are taught and understand. First, understanding a sin has been committed, then contrition, then the Sacrament of Reconciliation where the sin is forgiven and forgotten by God, completely. (We don’t believe God is keeping a tally of our forgiven sins, that are then dropped on us if the same sin is committed.) Third, resolve to stop the sin, but human weakness is what it is, and if the sin is committed again, contrition and back to Confession.

At Mass, we say the confiteor, which is one of the prayers before the Liturgy of the Euchrist begins:

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned,
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault, through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

The Sacrament of Reconciliation is begun with a confession of sin first, usually, “Bless me Father for I have sinned.”

 

[jane_doe]

Exactly. It is something I would take to the comfessional.

Jane, the question is why is gossip considered less of a sin in the LDS church and not required to confess to an LDS bishop when it directly violates one of the 10 commandments and can be extraordinarily damaging to the victim?

As I said earlier, there are many sins which could require a bishop’s involvement, my earlier list certainly didn’t cover them all.

I would say that someone whom has a gossip problem should talk to a bishop about it (and if you’re gossiping bad enough to drive someone to suicide, than it certainly is a problem)

 

[zaffiroborant]

Ah ha! I now realize that we are talking about two different things.

I’m referring to “repentance” as the whole processing (shown below in blue/red), and you’re referring to “repentance” to mean specifically the part where ecclesiastical authority is involved (shown below in red)

(This is my list from earlier)

1. Recognizing that what you’re doing is a sin.
2. Feeling godly sorrow and the need for your savior. Invite Him into your heart.
3. Forsaking the sin.
4. Confessing the sin to the Lord, and in some cases other people (depending on the sin and who’s involved).
   New addition: 4.5) In the sin is serious (mortal in Catholic wording), confession includes talking to ecclesiastical authority. In Catholicism this is simply go to confession. In Mormonism a bishop may have additional steps involved.
5. When possible, make reconciliation. Example: returning something you stole.
6. Accepting the Lord’s forgiveness and forgiving yourself. Part of this is partaking of the Lord’s Supper for absolution of sins and renewing that sacred relationship (last part Jane-Doe speaking).

So that’s why we’re having such a disconnect.

No it’s not, you don’t understand how different it is. In the LDS paradigm 2,3,5 and 6 come into play and the bishop decides if the “confessor” meets the criteria, it the bishop determines the confessor meets the criteria it’s okay if not he withholds forgiveness and places restrictions or actions on the person until he decides the conditions have been met. In the Catholic church the act of confession assumes 2, 3, 5 and 6. In the Catholic church the very act of confessing assume the best in the person, in the LDS church the act of confessing leave the person having to prove they are worthy.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Ah ha! I now realize that we are talking about two different things.

I’m referring to “repentance” as the whole processing (shown below in blue/red), and you’re referring to “repentance” to mean specifically the part where ecclesiastical authority is involved (shown below in red)

(This is my list from earlier)

1. Recognizing that what you’re doing is a sin.
2. Feeling godly sorrow and the need for your savior. Invite Him into your heart.
3. Forsaking the sin.
4. Confessing the sin to the Lord, and in some cases other people (depending on the sin and who’s involved).
   New addition: 4.5) In the sin is serious (mortal in Catholic wording), confession includes talking to ecclesiastical authority. In Catholicism this is simply go to confession. In Mormonism a bishop may have additional steps involved.
5. When possible, make reconciliation. Example: returning something you stole.
6. Accepting the Lord’s forgiveness and forgiving yourself. Part of this is partaking of the Lord’s Supper for absolution of sins and renewing that sacred relationship (last part Jane-Doe speaking).

So that’s why we’re having such a disconnect.

We are encouraged to confess venial sins as well as mortal sins, but unconfessed venial sin does not preclude someone from receiving communion. Unconfessed mortal sins do.

Regarding 6. One of the graces of the Eucharist is the forgiveness of venial sins. Mortal sins need to be confessed.

 

[RebeccaJ]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

As I said earlier, there are many sins which could require a bishop’s involvement, my earlier list certainly didn’t cover them all.

I would say that someone whom has a gossip problem should talk to a bishop about it (and if you’re gossiping bad enough to drive someone to suicide, than it certainly is a problem)

Gossiping is an act against charity, regardless of how bad the gossiper perceives it themselves. Not a mortal sin, but confessing will help overcome the sin.

 

[zaffiroborant]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Gossiping is an act against charity, regardless of how bad the gossiper perceives it themselves. Not a mortal sin, but confessing will help overcome the sin.

I’ve seen gossiping that meets the criteria for mortal sin.

 

[RebeccaJ]

leave the person having to prove they are worthy.

That’s a big one. We know we are not worthy and can never merit what God has given us.

 

[jane_doe]

It is a different understanding. Honestly, in my entire experience as a Mormon, I never felt sure that I was absolved of my sins. Ever.

While I don’t think it was ever “official” LDS doctrine, there is a common belief among Mormons that if a sin is committed again, all the previous instances of that sin come back upon that person. Basically, forgiveness is conditional on completely forsaking the sin. I don’t know that it is a common belief among younger Mormons. .

For what it’s worth, here’s my two cents on the matter:

“Sinning” and “Forgiveness” is not about keeping a tally in God’s book, rather is about us coming closer to God. Sinning obviously is us turning away from Him, and repenting the change of heart to draw close unto Him. Sinning and living God-like are both habit forming. When we screw up and repeat a previous bad sin, it is not “oh you screwed up and now you have all these old bad tally’s re-appearing on your record”. Rather, when we repeat a previous sin, we are falling back on bad habits, and it can be so hard to re-break out of them-- like a recovering alcoholic who get incredibly drunk and fails in their sobriety goals. Climbing out of the hole is possible, with the Savior’s help, but it is much easier simply for a “alcoholic” just not get drunk.

I have also noticed a rising trends in General Conference talks about realizing when Christ forgives us, and at that point we certainly should forgive ourselves.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’ve seen gossiping that meets the criteria for mortal sin.

Sad!

 

[zaffiroborant]

Sad!

It is really beyond sad, it affects children I’ve know since the first weeks of life. The gossip has had a deleterious effect on them for their whole lives and unfortunately it is snowballing now.

 

[jane_doe]

No it’s not, you don’t understand how different it is. In the LDS paradigm 2,3,5 and 6 come into play and the bishop decides if the “confessor” meets the criteria, it the bishop determines the confessor meets the criteria it’s okay if not he withholds forgiveness and places restrictions or actions on the person until he decides the conditions have been met. In the Catholic church the act of confession assumes 2, 3, 5 and 6. In the Catholic church the very act of confessing assume the best in the person, in the LDS church the act of confessing leave the person having to prove they are worthy.

I feel that again we are having a disconnect.

Let’s take hypothetical minor sin: one that would not likely involve a Catholic priest or Mormon bishop. My list would be:

1. Recognizing that what you’re doing is a sin.
2. Feeling godly sorrow and the need for your savior. Invite Him into your heart.
3. Forsaking the sin.
4. Confessing the sin to the Lord, and in some cases other people (depending on the sin and who’s involved). (Notice: no priest involved, this is a minor sin).
5. When possible, make reconciliation. Example: returning something you stole.
6. Accepting the Lord’s forgiveness and forgiving yourself. Part of this is partaking of the Lord’s Supper for absolution of sins and renewing that sacred relationship.

Would your steps be any different? If so, specifically how? Again, minor sin that doesn’t require a priest.

Now, moving onto a major sin which requires priest involvement. I am specifically going to speak as myself right here, and make no claims of Mormon orthodoxy. Zaff, I don’t think an LDS bishop can withhold forgiveness when God decides its warranted. A bishop is there to be your repentance coach, but coaches can be wrong. And if the bishop is missing God’s memo that you’re forgiven, then that doesn’t change the fact that you are. The repent-er should be listening to God first and foremost.

 

[RebeccaJ]

For what it’s worth, here’s my two cents on the matter:

“Sinning” and “Forgiveness” is not about keeping a tally in God’s book, rather is about us coming closer to God. Sinning obviously is us turning away from Him, and repenting the change of heart to draw close unto Him. Sinning and living God-like are both habit forming. When we screw up and repeat a previous bad sin, it is not “oh you screwed up and now you have all these old bad tally’s re-appearing on your record”. Rather, when we repeat a previous sin, we are falling back on bad habits, and it can be so hard to re-break out of them-- like a recovering alcoholic who get incredibly drunk and fails in their sobriety goals. Climbing out of the hole is possible, with the Savior’s help, but it is much easier simply for a “alcoholic” just not get drunk.

I have also noticed a rising trends in General Conference talks about realizing when Christ forgives us, and at that point we certainly should forgive ourselves.

Jesus paid for our sins already. We are forgiven, already. That realization is before going to Confession, where we receive absolution, which gives the penitent a formal forgiveness of their sins. The graces of the Sacrament are of healing, and strengthening to sin no more.

With regards to the Eucharist, we are intimately united to Christ, which among many things, strengthens us.

Having been to both Mormon and Catholic confessions, as has already been pointed out, a Mormon confession just makes you feel worse than you already felt. Very judged and unloved by God. A Catholic confession is a healing, where God’s love is poured out in abundance. The same love that the Son was sent in, by the Father.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I feel that again we are having a disconnect.

Let’s take hypothetical minor sin: one that would not likely involve a Catholic priest or Mormon bishop. My list would be:

1. Recognizing that what you’re doing is a sin.
2. Feeling godly sorrow and the need for your savior. Invite Him into your heart.
3. Forsaking the sin.
4. Confessing the sin to the Lord, and in some cases other people (depending on the sin and who’s involved). (Notice: no priest involved, this is a minor sin).
5. When possible, make reconciliation. Example: returning something you stole.
6. Accepting the Lord’s forgiveness and forgiving yourself. Part of this is partaking of the Lord’s Supper for absolution of sins and renewing that sacred relationship.

Would your steps be any different? If so, specifically how? Again, minor sin that doesn’t require a priest.

Now, moving onto a major sin which requires priest involvement. I am specifically going to speak as myself right here, and make no claims of Mormon orthodoxy. Zaff, I don’t think an LDS bishop can withhold forgiveness when God decides its warranted. A bishop is there to be your repentance coach, but coaches can be wrong. And if the bishop is missing God’s memo that you’re forgiven, then that doesn’t change the fact that you are. The repent-er should be listening to God first and foremost.

Catholics don’t confess in private prayer, though, nothing is wrong with that. We confess our sins, at Mass. Not in detail, but call to mind our sins and confess that we have sinned.

 

[jane_doe]

Catholics don’t confess in private prayer, though, nothing is wrong with that. We confess our sins, at Mass. Not in detail, but call to mind our sins and confess that we have sinned.

Is the prayer you say just to yourself in mass, not a private prayer? If not, how so?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Is the prayer you say just to yourself in mass, not a private prayer? If not, how so?

We say it out loud, together. Catholics are a people in communion. I posted the prayer, called the Confiteor.

 

[jane_doe]

We say it out loud, together. Catholics are a people in communion. I posted the prayer, called the Confiteor.

Is the physical recitation is required?

How about a person whom cannot attend mass and doesn’t go to confessional? Are they just accumulating sins that can’t be resolved until they go to mass/confessional? If not, how does it work?

 

[zaffiroborant]

I feel that again we are having a disconnect.

Let’s take hypothetical minor sin: one that would not likely involve a Catholic priest or Mormon bishop. My list would be:

1. Recognizing that what you’re doing is a sin.
2. Feeling godly sorrow and the need for your savior. Invite Him into your heart.
3. Forsaking the sin.
4. Confessing the sin to the Lord, and in some cases other people (depending on the sin and who’s involved). (Notice: no priest involved, this is a minor sin).
5. When possible, make reconciliation. Example: returning something you stole.
6. Accepting the Lord’s forgiveness and forgiving yourself. Part of this is partaking of the Lord’s Supper for absolution of sins and renewing that sacred relationship.

Would your steps be any different? If so, specifically how? Again, minor sin that doesn’t require a priest.

Now, moving onto a major sin which requires priest involvement. I am specifically going to speak as myself right here, and make no claims of Mormon orthodoxy. Zaff, I don’t think an LDS bishop can withhold forgiveness when God decides its warranted. A bishop is there to be your repentance coach, but coaches can be wrong. And if the bishop is missing God’s memo that you’re forgiven, then that doesn’t change the fact that you are. The repent-er should be listening to God first and foremost.

I’ve got to to sleep so this will be my last post about this tonight.

THERE ARE NO STEPS!

There is no idea of perfect and imperfect contrition in LDS thought.

And as to that imperfect contrition which is called attrition, because it is commonly conceived either from the consideration of the turpitude of sin, or from the fear of hell and of punishment, the council declares that if with the hope of pardon, it excludes the wish to sin, it not only does not make man a hypocrite and a greater sinner, but that it is even a gift of God, and an impulse of the Holy Spirit, who does not indeed as yet dwell in the penitent, but who only moves him whereby the penitent, being assisted, prepares a way for himself unto justice, and although this attrition cannot of itself, without the Sacrament of Penance, conduct the sinner to justification yet does it dispose him to receive the grace of God in the Sacrament of Penance. For smitten profitably with fear, the Ninivites at the preaching of Jonas did fearful penance and obtained mercy from Lord.

In Catholic teaching your criteria does not have to be met in order to receive absolution, no Godly sorrow, no restitution. It is a totally different understanding of confession and forgiveness. There are probably better explanations of imperfect contrition out there but I am way tired and brain dead. I will come back and look and see if others haven’t explained the Catholic approach, I’m betting many will explain it better than I ever could.

Night.