LDS and the bible vs BOM

[RebeccaJ]

Is the physical recitation is required?

How about a person whom cannot attend mass and doesn’t go to confessional? Are they just accumulating sins that can’t be resolved until they go to mass/confessional? If not, how does it work?

Yeah, we NEED Christ. Missing Mass, is a mortal sin, unless of course a person is ill or other factors. But just not going, because you don’t feel like it, is a mortal sin. A person needs to confess a mortal sin before receiving communion again, but should not skip Mass again if they haven’t made it to Confession (for whatever reason).

People who are bed ridden or housebound should let a priest know so he can facilitate whatever that person needs. Eucharist (consecrated host) taken to their home or hospital, which can be done by laity. Request a priest hear confession, administer the Sacrament of Anointing the sick, or any other non-Sacramental needs the person may have.

(Sorry, I’m noticing typos in my posts after the fact. If those errors in typing make something unclear, let me know. )

 

[Jerusha]

 

[iepuras]

Now, moving onto a major sin which requires priest involvement. I am specifically going to speak as myself right here, and make no claims of Mormon orthodoxy. Zaff, I don’t think an LDS bishop can withhold forgiveness when God decides its warranted. A bishop is there to be your repentance coach, but coaches can be wrong. And if the bishop is missing God’s memo that you’re forgiven, then that doesn’t change the fact that you are. The repent-er should be listening to God first and foremost.

But the reality is that LDS bishops do this frequently. A friend of mine was told by our bishop that she had to put her baby up for adoption in order to repent and be forgiven when she got pregnant as a teen out of wedlock. Oh, and the baby daddy continued to bless the sacrament. She was shamed and shunned even 10+ years later. There are many stories of people who work with their LDS bishop on the repentance process and believe they have been forgiven by God only to be told by the bishop that they haven’t yet been forgiven. Regardless of what God says, the person is still disfellowshipped and not allowed to partake of the sacrament, pray in public or serve in callings. The theory sounds nice, but it frequently does not happen in real life.

So the Mormon penitent should be listening to God before the bishop? Well, the bishop is a judge in Israel. His word stands unless someone convinces the stake president to get the bishop to change. And Mormons are supposed to sustain their leaders, which includes obedience and not complaining. There have been people who have been excommunicated from the LDS church because they believe they were listening to God when they stood up to LDS church leadership. The problem is that LDS leaders from the president on down to the bishop are “called of God” and given authority from God to do their jobs. That makes it a bit difficult to defy them, doesn’t it?

 

[iepuras]

Jesus paid for our sins already. We are forgiven, already. That realization is before going to Confession, where we receive absolution, which gives the penitent a formal forgiveness of their sins. The graces of the Sacrament are of healing, and strengthening to sin no more.

With regards to the Eucharist, we are intimately united to Christ, which among many things, strengthens us.

Having been to both Mormon and Catholic confessions, as has already been pointed out, a Mormon confession just makes you feel worse than you already felt. Very judged and unloved by God. A Catholic confession is a healing, where God’s love is poured out in abundance. The same love that the Son was sent in, by the Father.

Absolutely!

I only went to Mormon confession once. It was such a horrible experience, I never went again. It didn’t help me at all. I felt judged and unloved. I was wracked with guilt weeks after confession. Catholic confession is extraordinarily healing. I hate going because I hate the fact that I sin. However, I am always very grateful when I do go. After confession, I know I am healed and loved. God certainly pours out His love and grace upon penitents who avail themselves of the sacrament of Confession. It is a wonderful sacrament!

 

[iepuras]

We say it out loud, together. Catholics are a people in communion. I posted the prayer, called the Confiteor.

Yes, we are a people in communion with each other and with the angels and saints in heaven. The Confiteor is a beautiful and fitting penitential prayer recited at Mass. It is appropriate that we all proclaim our sinfulness together. We are all in it together, after all.

I frequently pray the Jesus Prayer - Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner. It is a beautiful Eastern Christian tradition that has brought me much peace.

We are Byzantine Catholics so instead of the Confiteor, we proclaim the following prior to receiving the Eucharist:

O God, be merciful to me, a sinner.
O God, cleanse me of my sins and have mercy on me.
O Lord, forgive me, for I have sinned without number.

 

[jane_doe]

I’ve got to to sleep so this will be my last post about this tonight.

THERE ARE NO STEPS!

There is no idea of perfect and imperfect contrition in LDS thought.

In Catholic teaching your criteria does not have to be met in order to receive absolution, no Godly sorrow, no restitution. It is a totally different understanding of confession and forgiveness. There are probably better explanations of imperfect contrition out there but I am way tired and brain dead. I will come back and look and see if others haven’t explained the Catholic approach, I’m betting many will explain it better than I ever could.

Night.

I’m now officially mega-confused.

(I like examples to visualize things, so I’m going with an example of a harmful gossiper / bully )

“Sally” is a blatent gossiper/bully. If Sally wants to repent of her ways, are you saying that in the Catholic view, she doesn’t need to realize what she’s doing is wrong? That she doesn’t need to feel bad about it? That she shouldn’t apologize to those she’s wrong? That even if she’s repentant, she can just keep on gossiping?

I have more questions, but let’s start with the above. Wait, one more-- skimming the Catholic replies in the thread again, I see the words “forgiveness” used a lot, but not a lot of “repentance”. Why is that?

(Note: please forgive me if I said something not quite politically correct, I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but I am just mega confused).

 

[XuDan]

I’m now officially mega-confused.

(I like examples to visualize things, so I’m going with an example of a harmful gossiper / bully )

“Sally” is a blatent gossiper/bully. If Sally wants to repent of her ways, are you saying that in the Catholic view, she doesn’t need to realize what she’s doing is wrong? That she doesn’t need to feel bad about it? That she shouldn’t apologize to those she’s wrong? That even if she’s repentant, she can just keep on gossiping?

I have more questions, but let’s start with the above. Wait, one more-- skimming the Catholic replies in the thread again, I see the words “forgiveness” used a lot, but not a lot of “repentance”. Why is that?

(Note: please forgive me if I said something not quite politically correct, I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but I am just mega confused).

Let’s define some things:

re·pent·ant
rəˈpent(ə)nt/
adjective
expressing or feeling sincere regret and remorse; remorseful.
“he is truly repentant for his incredible naivety and stupidity”
synonyms: penitent, contrite, regretful, rueful, remorseful, apologetic, chastened, ashamed, shamefaced, guilt-ridden
“there are two repentant children in there waiting to talk to you”

That’s the definition at the top of google when you type in “repentant.” Now let’s look at your example with the term applied and clarified.

“Sally” is a blatent gossiper/bully. If Sally wants to repent of her ways, are you saying that in the Catholic view, she doesn’t need to realize what she’s doing is wrong? That she doesn’t need to feel bad about it? That she shouldn’t apologize to those she’s wrong? That even if she’s repentant, she can just keep on gossiping?

By definition if she want’s to repent, then she realizes that she is wrong and feels regret and remorse.

If she didn’t, by definition meet the conditions of what it meant to be repentant, she cannot undergo any form of repentance be it LDS or Catholic because she wouldn’t want too! Why would the unrepentant repent? I think this is all being over complicated. I think that it is generally assumed that an individual is repentant when they go to Catholic confession. It is the experience of myself and others that the LDS confession does not make this assumption since they take a lot of time and effort to rub your face in it.

 

[SteveVH]

I’m now officially mega-confused.

(I like examples to visualize things, so I’m going with an example of a harmful gossiper / bully )

“Sally” is a blatent gossiper/bully. If Sally wants to repent of her ways, are you saying that in the Catholic view, she doesn’t need to realize what she’s doing is wrong?

If she didn’t realize what she was doing was wrong then there would be no sin to confess. In order to sin, we must be aware that we are sinning.

That she doesn’t need to feel bad about it? That she shouldn’t apologize to those she’s wrong? That even if she’s repentant, she can just keep on gossiping?

No one has said this. The very act of going to confess one’s sins and carrying out the penance given by the priest is repentance; a turning away from sin toward God. If one has no intention of changing those things that caused them to sin in the first place, then there is no forgiveness.

This is demonstrated very well by the common scenario of one cohabitating with another outside of the bonds of marriage. One may very well confess the sin but unless he or she has the intention of changing their situation the priest will not (or should not) give them absolution. The same applies even if the priest unknowingly gives absolution when the one confessing is not sincere in their desire to avoid the sin. We are confessing our sins to God who knows everything, even the depths of our heart. Anyone who thinks they can fool God is a fool indeed.

Peace.

Steve

 

[iepuras]

I’m now officially mega-confused.

(I like examples to visualize things, so I’m going with an example of a harmful gossiper / bully )

“Sally” is a blatent gossiper/bully. If Sally wants to repent of her ways, are you saying that in the Catholic view, she doesn’t need to realize what she’s doing is wrong? That she doesn’t need to feel bad about it? That she shouldn’t apologize to those she’s wrong? That even if she’s repentant, she can just keep on gossiping?

I have more questions, but let’s start with the above. Wait, one more-- skimming the Catholic replies in the thread again, I see the words “forgiveness” used a lot, but not a lot of “repentance”. Why is that?

(Note: please forgive me if I said something not quite politically correct, I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but I am just mega confused).

I think you are making it more complicated than it needs to be. Someone who is unrepentant at all is not going to go to confession. It takes repentance and humility to go to confession, admit to being a sinner and confess sins. The repentance and contrition may be imperfect because the penitent is confessing out of fear of hell rather than out of love of God, but God will still forgive and graces are still given through the sacrament of Confession.

We talk about forgiveness a lot because, well, we are sinners and desperately NEED God’s forgiveness.

 

[iepuras]

I think that it is generally assumed that an individual is repentant when they go to Catholic confession.

Pretty much. Otherwise, why would someone go to confession?

It is the experience of myself and others that the LDS confession does not make this assumption since they take a lot of time and effort to rub your face in it.

Especially since with certain sins that can have a very public consequence, i.e., fornication that results in pregnancy, an LDS bishop can haul the woman into his office and grill her about it even if she is “unrepentant”, i.e., refuses to give the baby up for adoption to a “worthy” LDS couple, out the father (so he can be hauled into the bishop’s office), or give explicit details on exactly how the baby was conceived.

 

[Stephen168]

I’m now officially mega-confused.

(I like examples to visualize things, so I’m going with an example of a harmful gossiper / bully )

“Sally” is a blatent gossiper/bully. If Sally wants to repent of her ways, are you saying that in the Catholic view, she doesn’t need to realize what she’s doing is wrong? That she doesn’t need to feel bad about it? That she shouldn’t apologize to those she’s wrong? That even if she’s repentant, she can just keep on gossiping?

By your questions, I’m wondering if Mormons only go to confession after they are caught in sin by others.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m now officially mega-confused.

(I like examples to visualize things, so I’m going with an example of a harmful gossiper / bully )

“Sally” is a blatent gossiper/bully. If Sally wants to repent of her ways, are you saying that in the Catholic view, she doesn’t need to realize what she’s doing is wrong? That she doesn’t need to feel bad about it? That she shouldn’t apologize to those she’s wrong? That even if she’s repentant, she can just keep on gossiping?

I have more questions, but let’s start with the above. Wait, one more-- skimming the Catholic replies in the thread again, I see the words “forgiveness” used a lot, but not a lot of “repentance”. Why is that?

(Note: please forgive me if I said something not quite politically correct, I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but I am just mega confused).

Feeling sorrow for one’s sin is not a step that needs to be taken, it is a result of sin, which wounds our relationships with God, the Church and each other. It’s like saying, a step to good parenting is to love your child. If one views love as a step, then is that love? We feel sorrow for our sins because we love God, and rightly should love our neighbor. (My experience is that people are less likely to gossip about those who they love.)

Restitution is a penitential act. A person is absolved of their sins, and then any penance is given.

We examine our conscience, especially before confession, but a good priest once recommended that we do it every evening. This is not an exercise of guilt, but of discipleship, in love for God. We don’t do this alone, the Psalmist prays, cleanse me oh Lord of my hidden faults. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is for our benefit, not God’s. God is not looking for steps, but a heart that is predisposed to Him, in love.

 

[jane_doe]

I get the vibe that you guys equate repentance = going to confession? Is that correct?

 

[Jerusha]

That she doesn’t need to feel bad about it? That she shouldn’t apologize to those she’s wrong? That even if she’s repentant, she can just keep on gossiping?

I have more questions, but let’s start with the above. Wait, one more-- skimming the Catholic replies in the thread again, I see the words “forgiveness” used a lot, but not a lot of “repentance”. Why is that?

Penance is a combination of practicing the opposite virtue, smiling through the consequences of our sins, and doing what we need to do to prevent ourselves from committing that sin again. For a person who sins as a result of use of excessive alcohol, therefore, part of such a process might include the practice of sobriety. Without that, the practice of Reconciliation is the merry-go-round that Protestants often mock. That process is included in the Act of Contrition, in its simplest form

O my God, I am sorry for my sins because I have offended you. I know I should love you above all things. Help me to do penance, to do better, and to avoid anything that might lead me to sin. Amen.

Repentance is incomplete without those things.

 

[Jerusha]

Who said repentance = going to confession? Is that assumed?

Yes, in the case of mortal sin.

 

[XuDan]

Yeah, it crosses too many lines. I know they fancy themselves to be the judges of the tribes and all, but there are soooooo many scriptures saying hat it’s not our place. That only God alone has the right to judge our heart. We have one job as humans. One. To forgive.

Trying to separate a mother and child is wrong. Unless the child is at risk of course, but under normal circumstances, even if conception was caused by an act of sin, trying to strong arm her into adoption is flat out wrong. I hope she didn’t give the child up. No one deserves to be treated like that

Ugh, I went once for something that most would call a minor sin. I had acted in anger in a way I wasn’t proud of but not a mortal sin. I had already apologized to the other party and I was still told I had to abstain from the sacrament for two months, pending a second interview. Where I was then interrogated as though I wasn’t sincere. Unfortunately, over 15 years this was the normal experiance with confession or even asking advice in a hard situation.

 

[Jerusha]

I had acted in anger in a way I wasn’t proud of but not a mortal sin. I had already apologized to the other party and I was still told I had to abstain from the sacrament for two months, pending a second interview.

So harsh and judgmental!

 

[iepuras]

Feeling sorrow for one’s sin is not a step that needs to be taken, it is a result of sin, which wounds our relationships with God, the Church and each other. It’s like saying, a step to good parenting is to love your child. If one views love as a step, then is that love? We feel sorrow for our sins because we love God, and rightly should love our neighbor. (My experience is that people are less likely to gossip about those who they love.)

Restitution is a penitential act. A person is absolved of their sins, and then any penance is given.

We examine our conscience, especially before confession, but a good priest once recommended that we do it every evening. This is not an exercise of guilt, but of discipleship, in love for God. We don’t do this alone, the Psalmist prays, cleanse me oh Lord of my hidden faults. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is for our benefit, not God’s. God is not looking for steps, but a heart that is predisposed to Him, in love.

Jane, repentance does not involve a checklist that we mark off as we complete the “steps”. Becoming holy is not a result of checking off all the boxes and doing everything we are “supposed” to do like getting baptized, going to the temple, reading the scriptures every day, getting married, holding Family Home Evening, etc. Holiness is a result of allowing God to change us. He cleanses us of our sins and makes us holy. All we need to do is turn our hearts to Him in love.

 

[Stephen168]

I get the vibe that you guys equate repentance = going to confession? Is that correct?

yes, or at the Penitential Rite during Mass, see post #163

 

[Stephen168]

Ugh, I went once for something that most would call a minor sin. I had acted in anger in a way I wasn’t proud of but not a mortal sin. I had already apologized to the other party and I was still told I had to abstain from the sacrament for two months, pending a second interview. Where I was then interrogated as though I wasn’t sincere. Unfortunately, over 15 years this was the normal experiance with confession or even asking advice in a hard situation.

Were you told to go to confession?