LDS and the bible vs BOM

[RebeccaJ]

Who said repentance = going to confession? Is that assumed?

The Sacraments are not utilities. They are an outward sign of an inward grace, instituted by Christ.

Absolution is why we go to confession.

Repentance is an interior change of the person, away from sin and towards discipleship of Christ. The interior change instills a desire to seek absolution. But these are not steps, more of a process, one of living in Christ and seeking the will of God. We are imperfect, and sin. It is God who heals us.

Penance is not a punishment or payment for forgiveness. God forgives us unconditionally, repeatedly. This does not mean we are to sin as often as we like.

The two sins against the Holy Spirit are presumption and despair. Presumption is sinning with the belief that it doesn’t matter, God forgives you. Despair is not accepting that God has forgiven you. Both are interior to the person but can be seen outwardly, in nonchalant sinning (presumption) or worrying that one needs to do something more, to be truly forgiven.

 

[iepuras]

Yeah, it crosses too many lines. I know they fancy themselves to be the judges of the tribes and all, but there are soooooo many scriptures saying hat it’s not our place. That only God alone has the right to judge our heart. We have one job as humans. One. To forgive.

Trying to separate a mother and child is wrong. Unless the child is at risk of course, but under normal circumstances, even if conception was caused by an act of sin, trying to strong arm her into adoption is flat out wrong. I hope she didn’t give the child up. No one deserves to be treated like that

Nope. She kept her baby. The bishop was so aggressive with adoption that even LDS Social Services told him to lay off. She is also now out of the LDS church for good. She is a wonderful mother and works hard to take care of her children. She is an inspiration!

Ugh, I went once for something that most would call a minor sin. I had acted in anger in a way I wasn’t proud of but not a mortal sin. I had already apologized to the other party and I was still told I had to abstain from the sacrament for two months, pending a second interview. Where I was then interrogated as though I wasn’t sincere. Unfortunately, over 15 years this was the normal experiance with confession or even asking advice in a hard situation.

So sorry you were treated this way. This is why so many Mormons don’t bother confessing even serious sins unless they get caught.

 

[Stephen168]

By your questions, I’m wondering if Mormons only go to confession after they are caught in sin by others.

So sorry you were treated this way. This is why so many Mormons don’t bother confessing even serious sins unless they get caught.

I guess that answers my question

 

[RebeccaJ]

Mormon excommunication is odd to me. A Mormon seeking forgiveness can be excommunicated.

What penitent sinner ever approached Jesus, and received the response, “Get away from me!”

 

[iepuras]

Mormon excommunication is odd to me. A Mormon seeking forgiveness can be excommunicated.

What penitent sinner ever approached Jesus, and received the response, “Get away from me!”

Exactly! Jesus also forgave immediately. He didn’t tell them that they needed to not partake of the sacrament or not pray publicly for 3 months and then come back then to see if their repentance is sufficient for forgiveness.

 

[iepuras]

I guess that answers my question

There are also experiences that are manufactured to guilt people (especially teenagers) into confessing. This happens quite a bit when teenagers are sent out on missions. It is not uncommon for someone to not confess something (usually masturbation or getting a little too hot and heavy with the girlfriend) until feelings of guilt and shame are heaped on them in the Missionary Training Center or by their mission president. I know of quite a few young men who were sent home from the MTC or even from the mission field for a few months to “resolve some issues” and then they are sent back out on the mission. It is not uncommon for a missionary to not have success, listen to the mission president talk to all the missionaries about how they will not be successful unless they repent of all their sins and then go to the mission president to confess something that they did prior to the mission.

 

[RebeccaJ]

come back then to see if their repentance is sufficient for forgiveness.

 

[iepuras]

I’ve known bishops who were working with someone on the “repentance process” for a serious sin and told the person to come back for an interview periodically (often every month) to see how things are going and to determine if the person has repented enough for God to forgive him. Sometimes the person believes that God has forgiven him only to be told by the bishop that he hasn’t repented enough and that he needs to spend more time repenting.

 

[jane_doe]

Guys, I’m trying to talk about repentance as a change of heart (my opinion of true repentance), and understand Catholic view of things. But you guys keep trying to tie it back to the actions of men, which is not repentance at all. It is becoming frustrating.

 

[Jerusha]

Repentance IS a change of heart. Just like there are some sins which occur in our thought-lives. What we are pointing to is that in Mormonism, the repentance process is in the actions of men. The sacrament of Reconciliation in Catholicism is an outward sign of that inward change.

Unless we have the humility to confess our sins to another human being, especially when they are serious, odds are that we are not truly repentant, and will commit those sins again. And a bit of advice doesn’t hurt.

 

[SteveVH]

Guys, I’m trying to talk about repentance as a change of heart (my opinion of true repentance)

The decision to confess one’s sins is a change of heart; one who wishes to reconcile with God and one who, as part of the sacrament, says something similar to this:

*O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended you. And I detest all of my sins because of your just punishments, but most of all because they offend you, my God, who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of your grace, to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin. *

Repentance is the prodigal son humbly returning to his father. That is exactly what we do when we confess our sins in the sacrament of Reconciliation. No change of heart, no reconciliation.

and understand Catholic view of things.

Not sure about that or you wouldn’t have made the comments you did above.

But you guys keep trying to tie it back to the actions of men, which is not repentance at all. It is becoming frustrating.

The actions of men are on the part of LDS. It is the men who make the judgments as to whether or not one is “righteous” and if they have repented enough. Things aren’t necessarily confessed and forgotten.

Our Father waits for us, looking down the road for our return. And when we do he runs to us. He cannot wait to forgive us. It isn’t something held over our head by men. The priest can never repeat what he has heard.

 

[jane_doe]

Repentance IS a change of heart. Just like there are some sins which occur in our thought-lives. What we are pointing to is that in Mormonism, the repentance process is in the actions of men. The sacrament of Reconciliation in Catholicism is an outward sign of that inward change.

Unless we have the humility to confess our sins to another human being, especially when they are serious, odds are that we are not truly repentant, and will commit those sins again. And a bit of advice doesn’t hurt.

This is a prime example of why I’m getting confused / frustrated. Jerusha in red, me in blue (speaking as myself).

Repentance IS a change of heart. Yes, I totally agree!!

What we are pointing to is that in Mormonism, the repentance process is in the actions of men.

Ummm… no. There is no Mormon sacrament of “Confession” or “Repentance”. Repentance is the change that occurs in your heart (as stated right above). >99% of repentance in Mormon-dom never involves anyone by but you on your knees with the Lord. There is no confession booth, there in no special prayer to recite, you don’t even have to go to church for it. Just you+Lord.

For the <1% of sins which do require someone to help you, it is because they are supposed to coach/support you in reconciling with the Lord. A Mormon bishop does not “decide” if you’ve been forgiven or not, that’s the Lord’s call

The sacrament of Reconciliation in Catholicism is an outward sign of that inward change.

Ok.

Unless we have the humility to confess our sins to another human being, especially when they are serious, odds are that we are not truly repentant, and will commit those sins again. And a bit of advice doesn’t hurt.

Now I’m once again confused about the Catholic position: you say don’t need another person, but then say it’s not true repentance unless you confess to another human being.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Now I’m once again confused about the Catholic position: you say don’t need another person, but then say it’s not true repentance unless you confess to another human being.

A priest ministers the Sacrament in persona Christi.

 

[SteveVH]

Oh my goodness! That’s it!

I knew there was an even greater significance to that expression (“to look upon the nakedness of your father”), and to the whole passage, but I could not for the life of me remember what it was. I must admit that I’m much more familiar with the NT than the OT, which apparently shows in this case. You certainly have a greater knowledge and understanding of scripture than I do. This is a perfect example of how we have to understand the significance of the terminology used in the Bible, in the context of what it meant to the people of that time period, or we can come to a completely incorrect conclusion. So, I am very glad you shared that much deeper meaning with us, that you’ve learned by studying it in more detail. Thank you!

I would highly recommend the Book “Walking With God” (Ascension Press). It takes you from Genesis to Revelation and really lays out the story of salvation history. Dr. Tim Gray is a great theologian who is currently the President of the Augustine Institute in Denver. You may know Jeff Cavins of EWTN fame. This is pretty much a summation of their Bible Study “The Great Adventure” which is an excellent resource.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Unless we have the humility to confess our sins to another human being, especially when they are serious, odds are that we are not truly repentant, and will commit those sins again. And a bit of advice doesn’t hurt.

Now I’m once again confused about the Catholic position: you say don’t need another person, but then say it’s not true repentance unless you confess to another human being.

That is not what the sentence says.

 

[XuDan]

Were you told to go to confession?

No, I went of my own accord. I felt really bad and wanted to work things out so I wouldn’t react like that again. So I went of my own accord. But after the first interview a penence was put in place of abstaining from the sacrament until my next interview with the bishop. It was jaw dropping. He didn’t even really give me anything to work with or talk much about how to remedy the issue other than pray and abstain from the sacrament.

 

[Stephen168]

No, I went of my own accord. I felt really bad and wanted to work things out so I wouldn’t react like that again. So I went of my own accord. But after the first interview a penence was put in place of abstaining from the sacrament until my next interview with the bishop. It was jaw dropping. He didn’t even really give me anything to work with or talk much about how to remedy the issue other than pray and abstain from the sacrament.

So would the following agree with your experience?

For the <1% of sins which do require someone to help you, it is because they are supposed to coach/support you in reconciling with the Lord. A Mormon bishop does not “decide” if you’ve been forgiven or not, that’s the Lord’s call

 

[jane_doe]

So would the following agree with your experience?

Personally, I would say that XuDan’s bishops was quite likely missing the memo and was out of line. (Obviously I can’t be sure cause I wasn’t there).

 

[Stephen168]

Personally, I would say that XuDan’s bishops was quite likely missing the memo and was out of line. (Obviously I can’t be sure cause I wasn’t there).

I’m asking because your explanation doesn’t seem to be consistent with Posts #155 and #203 or anything I’ve ever heard about Mormon Confession.

 

[iepuras]

Personally, I would say that XuDan’s bishops was quite likely missing the memo and was out of line. (Obviously I can’t be sure cause I wasn’t there).

Actually, XuDan’s experience is consistent with my own experience as well as the experience of many of my friends. Anecdotal? Sure, but consistent with everything I have ever heard or experienced with confessing to a Mormon bishop.

I guess there are an awful lot of Mormon bishops who haven’t gotten “the memo”.