LDS and the bible vs BOM

[TOmNossor]

1. You are purposely not answering the question that was stated.
2. You have, once again, made this about what “TOm” thinks, not what the Mormon church teaches or believes as a whole.
3. This is done over and over to confuse, conflate, and twist words so that the original meaning is lost.
4. This is done intentionally.

Lax,
I think I did answer your question.

I tried to imbed all the quotes so I could show how I saw this develop, but I have given up.
I responded to your question by saying (bolding added):

I think the CoJCoLDS has published essays to deal with controversial issues, but I would have never claimed the purpose of those essays was to unveil the great secret that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. There are difficult truths in the historical record that are IMO the purpose of the essays on polygamy. These truths certainly are open to multiple interpretations and I largely follow Brian Hales and Don Bradley in my thoughts about these though I am happy to be in a church with Richard Bushman and Todd Compton too.
In addition to being in a church with Hales, Bradly, Bushman, and Compton; I am glad to be in a church with folks that were shocked to discover that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.

So my answer was the essay was not “to make an official announcement” concerning Joseph Smith’s polygamy, but rather was to discuss, “difficult truths in the historical record” (and I could have said “difficult truths related to Polygamy”).
I have just looked at some folks who have posted referencing the NYT article. I will ask a few folks at church about their discovery of Joseph Smith polygamy. My brief review of the response to the NYT article has resulted in my deleting of few paragraphs I was about to offer. I may be much farther out of the norm concerning the discovery of this issue (though I still think it unlikely MOST folks didn’t know). I joined the church when I was 24-25. I was exposed to a little material critical of the church before I joined. At 26 I became fascinated by the wrangling back and forth concerning the church and I read all the critical material I could find. I walked into the local LDS bookstore and picked up Todd Compton’s book (read for about 1 hour). I remember being surprised at negativity with which Compton spoke about polygamy, but my conclusion was that such was within the spectrum of allowable responses (I even briefly thought that most people held his negative view).
My review of the NYT article responses show me that there are folks who rather bombastically claim what seemed obvious to me based on my experience with this issue. There are other folks who cogently explain how their experiences are very different than mine.
Why do you get TOm when you ask about Mormon’s? Outside of the Internet, I have NEVER met anyone who claimed to be surprised by the fact that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. It is in D&C 132 for goodness sake. But, I do not want to be like those who “bombastically claim what seemed obvious to me.” I simply only know me and the 0% of folks who claimed this was a huge reveal. I will try to educate myself some more as I am not in the habit of asking folks at church if they knew Joseph Smith was a polygamist. My son never returned from HS and asked why they teased him about having multiple moms, he knew why he was teased (and he does not have multiple moms). My daughter is a little young, but I do not expect her to be surprised when it happens to her.
Charity, TOm

 

[iepuras]

In my time as LDS (I understand that this is anecdotal.), I would assert that most of the people I encountered (not just at the ward level), knew Smith was a polygamist, many of those most were aware that it was in the dozens. That said most that I encountered did not know (or kept it hush hush, which I doubt) that he was married to many (~11) women who had living husbands (thus polyandrous). Most also did not know that at least one of his wives is known to have been 14 at the time of the wedding, which was young even for that day.

It wasn’t a subject much discussed nor emphasized. It wasn’t avoided, but most people were either ignorant to those two points or simply didn’t believe them. The few who did struggled deeply with it.

While anecdotal, this was my experience as well. I totally knew about Brigham Young’s polygamy. Everyone knew. I sort of knew Smith was a polygamist, but it was rarely discussed and I really had know idea as to the extent of Smith’s polygamy. I guessed he had maybe a dozen or so wives, not 30+. Nor did I have a clue about his stealing of other men’s wives or the teenagers when he was in his mid-30’s. Ew. There was far more discussion about how great his marriage to Emma was. No one really wanted to discuss Smith’s polygamy. I admit I was in denial about it. Polygamy was always a huge struggle for me.

 

[TOmNossor]

Why then, in your opinion, did the Mormon church have to make an official statement and why are (were?) so many Mormons discussing it on blogs/boards/Facebook?

I believe most General Authorities encountered numerous problems with Mormonism, but they like Cardinal Newman can confidently say, “Ten thousand problems do not a doubt make.” I can say such things with them too though I think for me it is a little different. I am not a spiritual giant. I am just conservative and cautious. When if find something that I didn’t expect, I study, learn, and insert it into a framework of pluses and minuses. I do not think this EXPLICIT procedure is how most church leaders engaged these issues (though I think some did).

What I think the church failed to recognize was that most folks who knew about polyandry, fourteen year old wives, … 20 years ago knew because they were in the top 10% of folks interested in their church. They sought this info precisely because they were invested and committed more than most. Some small percentage of these folks from 20 years ago were so troubled by the info the found they left the church. Today 50% of church members discover things about the church that are troubling and they are not the self-selected ultra-committed LDS. The percentage of people very troubled by these issues is greater than it once was when only the very committed cared enough to do the reading and learning.
This is the reason the church has produced the essays IMO. I doubt the percentage of people who find these issues very troubling and leave is as high as some claim or some wish, but since so many folks know all these issues and are still fully committed LDS it seems openness and education are best.
Charity, TOm

 

[lax16]

I am not, was not, and do not think I have ever made a claim that the liberality of my parish is evidence that the Holy Spirit is not “protecting the Church that Jesus Christ himself started, the Catholic Church.”

Why would you say that a priest is/was intentionally giving communion to known Wiccan, agnostics and Mormons?
Mormons teach that error crept into the Catholic Church and in my experience with Mormons (and I have LOTS) these are the types of situations they will use as proof that the Catholic Church is apostate.

When I talk about my departure from the Catholic faith I often try to extend an olive branch that is also honestly part of what I think is there and this was what I was doing.

So you are saying you left the Catholic church to become a Mormon because a priest was giving communion to non-Catholics and because the parish was liberal?

I pointed out that my preconceptions shared with Catholics who were reasonably well catechized would have changed just like I claim Catholics who mature in the faith or LDS who mature in the faith SHOULD engage their faulty preconceptions. The only communities that I think this would not happen in is communities like the UU’s where it MIGHT be possible to instill such a fluidity in understanding that preconceptions do not break but flow. This is what I meant when I said,

It seemed important to note at this time that unlike the departure stories most ex-Catholics and ex-Mormon share, my story is about leaving a church that I thought was just like all the other churches. I really didn’t recognize the unique place Catholicism inhabited in the family of Christianity. I was part of a “Catholic Community.” I attended youth group and was an altar boy. I was more involved than most. But the particulars of Catholic truth claims were so deemphasized I easily gave them up for the silliest of reasons.
That is all I was saying.

There is no excuse to go on believing that all Catholic parishes or priests are the same. It seems to me you are still using this rationale for leaving the Church that Jesus started.

I expect that in Utah the Catholic Church has very few laissez-faire parishes like mine. Just like NM has virtually no LDS who would treat you as you were treated in Utah. If you look up the church closest to my address you will find what I consider to be a wonderful and faithful parish that is not like the one I grew up in. If you go about the same distance in the wrong direction you might find yourself at the “Liberal Catholic Church” which the Arch -Bishop has declared does not meet ones Sunday obligation and should be avoided (my teenage parish has no such stigma upon it, but I do think our priest is much more liberal than the Arch-Bishop).

I have lived in three states and have seen many different parishes.

All this originally meant was that my departure from the Catholic Church was unconsidered and happened in large part because I had no idea what I had as a Catholic. It was and is an olive branch as compared to all the “Catholic Church did me wrong and this is how” stories and their “Mormon Church did me wrong and this is how” complements.
I am wondering if the bulk of your Catholicism has been Utah Catholicism. I imagine a parish like my teenage parish would not fare as well in Utah as it has across town from me.
Charity, TOm

I have lived in three states and have been to many parishes. I’ve lived in Utah for 9 years and have been in 3 parishes.
We should choose a religion based on knowledge, don’t you think?

 

[lax16]

I am not, was not, and do not think I have ever made a claim that the liberality of my parish is evidence that the Holy Spirit is not “protecting the Church that Jesus Christ himself started, the Catholic Church.”

Why would you even say that a priest is/was intentionally giving communion to known Wiccan, agnostics and Mormons?
Mormons teach that error crept into the Catholic Church and in my experience with Mormons (and I have LOTS) these are the types of situations they will use as proof that the Catholic Church is apostate.

When I talk about my departure from the Catholic faith I often try to extend an olive branch that is also honestly part of what I think is there and this was what I was doing.

So you are saying you left the Catholic church to become a Mormon because a priest was giving communion to non-Catholics and because the parish was liberal?

I pointed out that my preconceptions shared with Catholics who were reasonably well catechized would have changed just like I claim Catholics who mature in the faith or LDS who mature in the faith SHOULD engage their faulty preconceptions. The only communities that I think this would not happen in is communities like the UU’s where it MIGHT be possible to instill such a fluidity in understanding that preconceptions do not break but flow. This is what I meant when I said,

It seemed important to note at this time that unlike the departure stories most ex-Catholics and ex-Mormon share, my story is about leaving a church that I thought was just like all the other churches. I really didn’t recognize the unique place Catholicism inhabited in the family of Christianity. I was part of a “Catholic Community.” I attended youth group and was an altar boy. I was more involved than most. But the particulars of Catholic truth claims were so deemphasized I easily gave them up for the silliest of reasons.
That is all I was saying.

It seems to me you are still using this rationale for leaving the Catholic Church.

I expect that in Utah the Catholic Church has very few laissez-faire parishes like mine. Just like NM has virtually no LDS who would treat you as you were treated in Utah. If you look up the church closest to my address you will find what I consider to be a wonderful and faithful parish that is not like the one I grew up in. If you go about the same distance in the wrong direction you might find yourself at the “Liberal Catholic Church” which the Arch -Bishop has declared does not meet ones Sunday obligation and should be avoided (my teenage parish has no such stigma upon it, but I do think our priest is much more liberal than the Archbishop.

All this originally meant was that my departure from the Catholic Church was unconsidered and happened in large part because I had no idea what I had as a Catholic. It was and is an olive branch as compared to all the “Catholic Church did me wrong and this is how” stories and their “Mormon Church did me wrong and this is how” complements.
I am wondering if the bulk of your Catholicism has been Utah Catholicism. I imagine a parish like my teenage parish would not fare as well in Utah as it has across town from me.
Charity, TOm

I have lived in three states and have been to many parishes. I’ve lived in Utah for 9 years and have been in 3 parishes. I go where the priests are orthodox.
I’ve encountered a few very liberal parishes. But it doesn’t shake my faith. It does sadden me though.

 

[lax16]

I believe most General Authorities encountered numerous problems with Mormonism, but they like Cardinal Newman can confidently say, “Ten thousand problems do not a doubt make.” I can say such things with them too though I think for me it is a little different. I am not a spiritual giant. I am just conservative and cautious. When if find something that I didn’t expect, I study, learn, and insert it into a framework of pluses and minuses. I do not think this EXPLICIT procedure is how most church leaders engaged these issues (though I think some did).

What I think the church failed to recognize was that most folks who knew about polyandry, fourteen year old wives, … 20 years ago knew because they were in the top 10% of folks interested in their church. They sought this info precisely because they were invested and committed more than most. Some small percentage of these folks from 20 years ago were so troubled by the info the found they left the church. Today 50% of church members discover things about the church that are troubling and they are not the self-selected ultra-committed LDS. The percentage of people very troubled by these issues is greater than it once was when only the very committed cared enough to do the reading and learning.
This is the reason the church has produced the essays IMO. I doubt the percentage of people who find these issues very troubling and leave is as high as some claim or some wish, but since so many folks know all these issues and are still fully committed LDS it seems openness and education are best.
Charity, TOm

I beg to differ. The Mormon church has made it abundantly clear they are responding to what believing Mormons are finding on the Internet and what has been hidden from Mormons for years.

 

[jane_doe]

Why then, in your opinion, did the Mormon church have to make an official statement

Because we live in a world which will pester you about anything until you make an official statement.

and why are (were?) so many Mormons discussing it on blogs/boards/Facebook?

Why not? I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I found it kind of cool to have an official published essay, and talked about that with my other folks.

 

[lax16]

Because we live in a world which will pester you about anything until you make an official statement.

You think non-Mormons pestered the LDS church to make a statement about the many wives of Joseph Smith?

Why not? I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but I found it kind of cool to have an official published essay, and talked about that with my other folks.

Many comments I read did not find it cool at all. They were either defending JS despite his transgressions or feeling angry about being lied to.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I did not know we had to be so exact on a forum.

Many do not require it, most of the time. Some require it some of the time. And a few have no requirement at all.

 

[Tarquin]

MTC:

I had a friend who was a priest in the Old Catholic Church. As I searched into the differences between his church and the more well-known “Roman Catholic Church”, I discovered a large number of “catholic” churches, some in communion with the Vatican, some not. There are even churches whose members claim to be Catholic who currently ordain gas and women into their priesthood. On the other hand, I visited a Catholic church - a “regular” one - in California for a family affair; the priest there gave to each person who came to him, either a blessing or a sip from the Chalice. So from my experience there are radical priests among the traditional ones, as there are also radical sects deviating from Tradition.

 

[lax16]

Many do not require it, most of the time. Some require it some of the time. And a few have no requirement at all.

And some require it of others, but not of themselves.

 

[lax16]

MTC:

I had a friend who was a priest in the Old Catholic Church. As I searched into the differences between his church and the more well-known “Roman Catholic Church”, I discovered a large number of “catholic” churches, some in communion with the Vatican, some not. There are even churches whose members claim to be Catholic who currently ordain gas and women into their priesthood. On the other hand, I visited a Catholic church - a “regular” one - in California for a family affair; the priest there gave to each person who came to him, either a blessing or a sip from the Chalice. So from my experience there are radical priests among the traditional ones, as there are also radical sects deviating from Tradition.

Do you know for a fact that the priest intentionally gave non -Catholics the Chalice?

Am I the only person who does not watch WHO is receiving communion?!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Do you know for a fact that the priest intentionally gave non -Catholics the Chalice?

Am I the only person who does not watch WHO is receiving communion?!

I don’t know how a priest would know whether or not a visitor is a Catholic. We don’t have a counterpart to the LDS temple recommend, and there is no Q&A of each recipient while they are receiving.

 

[Tarquin]

Do you know for a fact that the priest intentionally gave non -Catholics the Chalice?

Yes.
I was surprised to hear that he did it routinely, not just that one time.

 

[lax16]

I don’t know how a priest would know whether or not a visitor is a Catholic. We don’t have a counterpart to the LDS temple recommend, and there is no Q&A of each recipient while they are receiving.

I believe the Eastern Orthodox are very strict on this as well, for good reason.

 

[lax16]

Yes.
I was surprised to hear that he did it routinely, not just that one time.

I have seen radical priests do some very odd things at mass, such as a Q&A session during mass instead of The Penitential Act, however I never pay attention to who is or is not receiving communion.

When I was in high school certain teens I knew were receiving communion and I knew that they were doing things they shouldn’t have been doing and receiving the Eucharist. When I mentioned this to my mother, she said two things to me that I still remember 33 years later:

1. What were you doing watching who was going to communion?
2. Weed your own garden!

I think of my mom’s words every time I am at mass and have said these things to my own children. Just yesterday, in fact.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I have seen radical priests do some very odd things at mass, such as a Q&A session during mass instead of The Penitential Act, however I never pay attention to who is or is not receiving communion.

When I was in high school certain teens I knew were receiving communion and I knew that they were doing things they shouldn’t have been doing and receiving the Eucharist. When I mentioned this to my mother, she said two things to me that I still remember 33 years later:

1. What were you doing watching who was going to communion?
2. Weed your own garden!

I think of my mom’s words every time I am at mass and have said these things to my own children. Just yesterday, in fact.

And then is as much time spent watching who goes to confession.

 

[Horton]

Remember the LDS is a church founded on the concept of value. How much value do I have in the church in compared to others in my ward/town/stake…whatever? While Catholic Christians see the value of where we are in our journey of faith compared to ourselves, not to some man made standard or each other.

 

[lax16]

And then is as much time spent watching who goes to confession.

The confession line is waaaay shorter than the communion line.

I don’t go to confession as often as I should either, so I am not throwing stones.

 

[XuDan]

So my answer was the essay was not “to make an official announcement” concerning Joseph Smith’s polygamy, but rather was to discuss, “difficult truths in the historical record” (and I could have said “difficult truths related to Polygamy”).

Agreed. The discussion however, was something that should have happened much earlier though. Unfortunately, by doing it this way, as a response to fierce and public criticisms (and people citing it as reasons they left the LDS faith) it has left the church with another perception problem (something Hinkley tried hard to overcome). In this case, people have the perception of disingenuous, that the only reason the church is having the conversation and “admitting” these things happened is because they were “called out” and it was affecting membership numbers. Weather or not that is the case is irrelevant, because that is the perception (form people outside of the LDS faith). So yes, it wasn’t an official announcement, that much we agree on.

What I think the church failed to recognize was that most folks who knew about polyandry, fourteen year old wives, … 20 years ago knew because they were in the top 10% of folks interested in their church. They sought this info precisely because they were invested and committed more than most. Some small percentage of these folks from 20 years ago were so troubled by the info the found they left the church. Today 50% of church members discover things about the church that are troubling and they are not the self-selected ultra-committed LDS. The percentage of people very troubled by these issues is greater than it once was when only the very committed cared enough to do the reading and learning.

Those are some very specific numbers. I would be interested in seeing the surveys you are citing, do you have a link?