LDS and The "New Jerusalem"

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Martwen

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I would like to anyone from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Where the “New Jerusalem” that John Smith made a prophecy about in D&C section 84:1-5. His generation has pasted and he has gone to his grave. He stated that his hand would Dedicate the City of New Jerusalem on the westren boundries of the State of Missouri. If John Smith has the gift of prophecy how come he was wrong on in stating this prophecy. Remeber that this is one of many times he made a false propgecy.
 
Martwen said:
I would like to anyone from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Where the “New Jerusalem” that John Smith made a prophecy about in D&C section 84:1-5. His generation has pasted and he has gone to his grave. He stated that his hand would Dedicate the City of New Jerusalem on the westren boundries of the State of Missouri. If John Smith has the gift of prophecy how come he was wrong on in stating this prophecy. Remeber that this is one of many times he made a false propgecy.
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You’ve got to give them time, martwen, to come up with a dissembling answer.

One tack of zerinus might be “No, you are wrong: JOHN Smith did not make that prophecy.”

Of course,*** we*** know you meant “Joseph” Smith.

Robert
 
You are right I did mean Joseph Smith. Iguess I am a little more tired then I thoutht. You should goto Z’s blog. It is intresting to say the least. I enjoy to debate with people. Just keep in civil.
 
Rbt_Southwell said:
You’ve got to give them time, martwen, to come up with a dissembling answer.

One tack of zerinus might be “No, you are wrong: JOHN Smith did not make that prophecy.”

Of course,*** we*** know you meant “Joseph” Smith.

Robert
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I sure hope we find more then zerinus to come up with a good reason for Joesph Smith’s many false prophecy. The way I look at it is False Prophecy, False Prophet!
 
The standard LDS reply is that Joseph’s prophecy was not wrong. But wicked people got in the way so their god was unable to complete his plan.

They have a very small god.

Paul
 
So the gods’ plan was for the Civil War to escalate into a World War that would end with Armageddon? And evil people got in the way of this plan being accomplished? How interesting.

:juggle:

Be still my fingers.
 
A quotation from the website:

In other words, not every word a prophet says is always considered prophesy. In addition, some prophesies are conditional in nature. For example, in the Holy Bible, the prophet Jonah prophesied that Ninevah would by overthrown within forty days:

“And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” (Jonah 3:4)

However, the people of Ninevah repented and the Lord withdrew the prophecy:

“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.” (Jonah 3:10)

Was Jonah a false prophet? No, the prophecy was simply a conditional one.

It’s rather common for anti-Mormons to try and turn every single statement ever said by any Church leader at any time into an official prophecy that has no conditions. What’s especially hypocritical about this technique is that they are using the same techniques that atheists use against them. If you want a good response as to why Fundamentalist Protestant attacks against LDS Church leaders are invalid, I suggest you go to a Fundamentalist Christian bookstore, buy a book written by a Fundamentalist Christian author that refutes the attacks of atheists against the Bible, and simply apply the same principles to LDS Church leaders (e.g., "Jonah wasn’t a false prophet because the prophesy was conditional in nature. Likewise Joseph Smith wasn’t a false prophet because the prophecy was conditional as well)

lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/false_prophesies.htm
 
why_me said:
A quotation from the website:

In other words, not every word a prophet says is always considered prophesy. In addition, some prophesies are conditional in nature. For example, in the Holy Bible, the prophet Jonah prophesied that Ninevah would by overthrown within forty days:

“And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.” (Jonah 3:4)

However, the people of Ninevah repented and the Lord withdrew the prophecy:

“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.” (Jonah 3:10)

Was Jonah a false prophet? No, the prophecy was simply a conditional one.

It’s rather common for anti-Mormons to try and turn every single statement ever said by any Church leader at any time into an official prophecy that has no conditions. What’s especially hypocritical about this technique is that they are using the same techniques that atheists use against them. If you want a good response as to why Fundamentalist Protestant attacks against LDS Church leaders are invalid, I suggest you go to a Fundamentalist Christian bookstore, buy a book written by a Fundamentalist Christian author that refutes the attacks of atheists against the Bible, and simply apply the same principles to LDS Church leaders (e.g., "Jonah wasn’t a false prophet because the prophesy was conditional in nature. Likewise Joseph Smith wasn’t a false prophet because the prophecy was conditional as well)

lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/false_prophesies.htm
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whyme, are you saying that the prophecies of JS found in the mormon D&C are not really prophecies? What else then, in mormon scriptures, is not really the word of God?
 
Martwen said:
I would like to anyone from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Where the “New Jerusalem” that John Smith made a prophecy about in D&C section 84:1-5. His generation has pasted and he has gone to his grave. He stated that his hand would Dedicate the City of New Jerusalem on the westren boundries of the State of Missouri. If John Smith has the gift of prophecy how come he was wrong on in stating this prophecy. Remeber that this is one of many times he made a false propgecy.
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If you’re asking where it is, it is supposed to be Independence Missouri. Unfortunately for Smith and his followers, they were run out of Jackson County(even after the site of the new temple
had been dedicated and all) before they could build ‘Zion’. Seems that Smith’s neighbors didn’t take too kindly to threats.
 
RebeccaJ said:
whyme, are you saying that the prophecies of JS found in the mormon D&C are not really prophecies? What else then, in mormon scriptures, is not really the word of God?
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I am not saying that at all. But did you read the links? I think that you will see just where mormons are coming from. This is why I posted the links. Better understanding can lead to dialogue.
 
Jonah teaches us that prophecies serve as a warning. I agree with WhyMe here. Too many people (including Mormons) see them as foregone conclusions. Jonah was a true prophet, however, and Joseph Smith was not.
 
ApostateRLDS said:
If you’re asking where it is, it is supposed to be Independence Missouri. Unfortunately for Smith and his followers, they were run out of Jackson County(even after the site of the new temple
had been dedicated and all) before they could build ‘Zion’. Seems that Smith’s neighbors didn’t take too kindly to threats.
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Yes, in Missouri the citizens were very welcoming of african-americans:

Early Plans Abandoned

At the same time the Kirtland Temple was being built, a group of several temples was being planned for Independence (Jackson County), Missouri. These plans were thwarted when Mormons and Missourians proved unable to get along with each other. The political, social, economic, and religious gulf between the two groups was too wide to breach, **especially when Mormons published an editorial in their newspaper in 1833 inviting free men of color to join the church. Slave-state Missourians responded by forcibly pushing Mormons out of Jackson County. Several church members died in the process. **As a result, the planned temples in Independence were not built. Later, temples were conceived for Far West (Caldwell County) and Adam-ondi-Ahman (Daviess County), Missouri, but these too were abandoned. In the fall of 1838, problems between Missourians and Mormons escalated into in a series of armed skirmishes that historians call the Missouri Mormon War of 1838. The result was that Mormons were expelled from the state and fled to Nauvoo, Illinois, and elsewhere.

signaturebookslibrary.org…rmontemple.htm
 
why_me said:
I am not saying that at all. But did you read the links? I think that you will see just where mormons are coming from. This is why I posted the links. Better understanding can lead to dialogue.
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In that article, it sites the prophecy of David as unfulfilled. If you read the footnotes in the NAB, it states:

“The prophecy to David contained in these verses is cited again, in poetic form, in Psalm 89:20-38, and alluded to in Psalm 132. The promise regarding the people of Israel, 2 Sam 7:10-11, is a part of the promise to David at least as old as the composition of this chapter of Samuel, where it is anticipated in 2 Sam 7:6-7, and alluded to in David’s thanksgiving, 2 Sam 7:23-24; it applies to the people an expression used of David in Psalm 89:23.The prophecy to David is the basis for Jewish expectation of a Messiah, son of David, which Jesus Christ fulfilled in a transcendent way; cf Acts 2:30; Hebrews 1:5.”

So in essence, your site is claiming that Christ did not fulfill this prophecy.

Makes me question the validity of the rest of it. I don’t have the time to go researching every prophecy they brought up to determine how right or wrong they are about everything they are claiming.

The rules stated have a lot of wiggle room and keep saying the same thing in different ways.

Also, one test of a true prophecy is that is says something that is of grave importance to Christ’s Church or people’s souls. By the very fact that this prophecy did not come true it says that God didn’t really care where the mormons lived. It comes across as a rather humdrum prophecy, and oh well, maybe better luck next time, we’ll live somewhere else of our choosing. Was there ever a “follow up” prophecy, where God determined a new spot for the “City of Jerusalem”? Or did God just drop the subject altogether?

With this particular prophecy of Smith’s, it appears as nothing more than his own personal desire, and not of a prophetic nature at all.
 
RebeccaJ said:
In that article, it sites the prophecy of David as unfulfilled. If you read the footnotes in the NAB, it states:

“The prophecy to David contained in these verses is cited again, in poetic form, in Psalm 89:20-38, and alluded to in Psalm 132. The promise regarding the people of Israel, 2 Sam 7:10-11, is a part of the promise to David at least as old as the composition of this chapter of Samuel, where it is anticipated in 2 Sam 7:6-7, and alluded to in David’s thanksgiving, 2 Sam 7:23-24; it applies to the people an expression used of David in Psalm 89:23.The prophecy to David is the basis for Jewish expectation of a Messiah, son of David, which Jesus Christ fulfilled in a transcendent way; cf Acts 2:30; Hebrews 1:5.”

So in essence, your site is claiming that Christ did not fulfill this prophecy.
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You gave a catholic interpretation of the scripture. And that is okay. But what is the NAB?

The problem with christianity is that many sects have their own interpretation of scriptures. At times there seems to be no unity only division.

I can’t say that the interpretation you posted is wrong. But neither perhaps is the mormon interpretation. It all depends on perspective as it does for many others.
 
why_me said:
You gave a catholic interpretation of the scripture. And that is okay. But what is the NAB?

The problem with christianity is that many sects have their own interpretation of scriptures. At times there seems to be no unity only division.

I can’t say that the interpretation you posted is wrong. But neither perhaps is the mormon interpretation. It all depends on perspective as it does for many others.
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NAB = New American Bible

Well, I believe and make it a practice to really read and research. I did that with mormonism, found a lot of mind bending of reality had to be done in order to believe it, and left. I did that with atheism, and found a few disturbing logical dead ends. I have done it with Catholicism starting with studying what, exactly, is a “Trinity”. I don’t find I have to bend reality, I don’t find logical dead ends. Every question or issue or hard struggle I have had has had an answer.

And no, I haven’t been alone on this journey. I have friends who have helped me and I found something I never knew as a mormon and obviously not as an atheist…Faith.

You seem to have the same problem I had, and still have to some extent…trusting religion.
 
why_me said:
You gave a catholic interpretation of the scripture. And that is okay. But what is the NAB?

The problem with christianity is that many sects have their own interpretation of scriptures. At times there seems to be no unity only division.

I can’t say that the interpretation you posted is wrong. But neither perhaps is the mormon interpretation. It all depends on perspective as it does for many others.
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Do you know where the Bible came from! All scriptures are from the Catholic interpretation. The Bible came from the Catholic Church. The King James version which the LDS uses was brought about long after the supposed apostasy happened so how can the teach of this bible be true if their was no longer any authority for Christ on earth?:eek:
 
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