LDS: Apostasy

[ParkerD]

Hello Parker:

I beg to disagree with your statement that the Book of Mormon is a purifier of Biblical understanding. Your statement reminds me of Mrs. Baker-Eddy of Christian Science “fame” who also claimed that her book “Key to The Scriptures” was a necessity in understanding the Bible and also of Charles T. Russell of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society ( Jehovahs Witnesses ) who claimed that unless anyone did not use his explanations as aguide would not understand the scriptures even if they studied them for more than two years.

The Bible stands alone and interprets itself. It needs no assistance or purification, especialy spurious books like those mentioned.

Peace to you.

Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,
I understand that one such as yourself would feel that God stopped talking to His children after the Revelation of the Apostle John, and hasn’t spoken since as some sort of trial of everyone’s faith in the church you profess as the ultimate authority for all things heavenly, but I simply disagree and I would disagree if the Bible were my only source for revealed knowledge. The Bible contradicts your position throughout its message of salvation.

Merry Christmas and peace to you also.

 

[Jay53]

JAVL,
I understand that one such as yourself would feel that God stopped talking to His children after the Revelation of the Apostle John, and hasn’t spoken since as some sort of trial of everyone’s faith in the church you profess as the ultimate authority for all things heavenly, but I simply disagree and I would disagree if the Bible were my only source for revealed knowledge. The Bible contradicts your position throughout its message of salvation.

Merry Christmas and peace to you also.

Catholics don’t believe that God stopped talking to His children, but we believe that God, through Jesus, gave us everything we need for salvation. There is no need for any more prophets. How do Mormons interpret Jesus’ final words on the cross, “It is finished.”?

 

[KathleenGee]

Private revelation continues among believers in the Catholic Church…all believers share in the kingship, role of prophet, and Messiah…

Full revelation, both public and private, is always of Jesus Christ and for His glory and the support of His Bride-- His church, not Joseph Smith.

Christ’s mercy infinitely exceeds any sins of the Church. Our liturgies daily cry out for the Lord’s forgiveness and mercy, and His help for us to be more like Him…

This has been going on for 2,000 years…He must have heard us.

 

[ParkerD]

Catholics don’t believe that God stopped talking to His children, but we believe that God, through Jesus, gave us everything we need for salvation. There is no need for any more prophets. How do Mormons interpret Jesus’ final words on the cross, “It is finished.”?

Jay53,
My goodness. I’m sorry, but I am quite surprised at this particular question.

He Who is the loving and redeeming Savior of us all, had just completed the most important act in all of human history (by far the most important)–suffering the incomprehensible pain and anguish and physical, emotional, as well as spiritual torment when He felt the weight of our sins alone without the succoring help of His Father during the moment when He felt He had been forsaken and asked “why?”–yet when He said with the greatest of relief and humility-yet-triumph, “It is finished”–could it be that some would not comprehend that what was finished for Him (the infinite atonement) did not mean He would not continue to be involved in human history just as He had before He came to this earth as the perfect baby Jesus?

The Bible does not teach that prophets would cease when Christ ascended. He still wants us to have the kind of guidance that He gave the world through the prophets of old. The notion that He would not want to provide that same kind of loving guidance, baffles my mind for anyone who has studied the Bible seriously and sincerely.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,
My goodness. I’m sorry, but I am quite surprised at this particular question.

He Who is the loving and redeeming Savior of us all, had just completed the most important act in all of human history (by far the most important)–suffering the incomprehensible pain and anguish and physical, emotional, as well as spiritual torment when He felt the weight of our sins alone without the succoring help of His Father during the moment when He felt He had been forsaken and asked “why?”–yet when He said with the greatest of relief and humility-yet-triumph, “It is finished”–could it be that some would not comprehend that what was finished for Him (the infinite atonement) did not mean He would not continue to be involved in human history just as He had before He came to this earth as the perfect baby Jesus?

The Bible does not teach that prophets would cease when Christ ascended. He still wants us to have the kind of guidance that He gave the world through the prophets of old. The notion that He would not want to provide that same kind of loving guidance, baffles my mind for anyone who has studied the Bible seriously and sincerely.

I don’t understand the second part of your interpretation at all. I agree with most of the first paragraph. If Jesus is the way to the Father and He completed the Ultimate Sacrifice for us, what need do we have of further prophets. I’m actually surprised that anyone would think we need more prophets? Certainly we need guidance, but that guidance is through Jesus Christ and His Church - not through anyone else or any prophets that come after Him!! What new message could they possibly have that tops Jesus? Studying the Bible “seriously and sincerely” has nothing to do with it. Even without the Bible, we still have Jesus, we still have His Sacrifice and we still have His Body and Blood in the Eucharist!

 

[TheosisM]

I would just like to correct what I see as a misrepresentation (or misunderstanding) of the traditional Christian position. I will speak for Catholics.

Catholics do not believe that God “stopped talking to His children”. We do not believe that prophets ceased, or that He does not provide us with loving guidance, or that He is not involved in human history.

Catholics believe that all public revelation is complete. Pope Benedict XVI defined public revelation nicely-"…the revealing action of God directed to humanity as a whole…", and “It is called ‘Revelation’ because in it God gradually made himself known to men, to the point of becoming man himself, in order to draw to himself the whole world and unite it with himself through his Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ. It is not a matter therefore of [merely] intellectual communication, but of a life-giving process in which God comes to meet man.”"

So, public revelation is God revealing Himself to man, culminating in God incarnate, Jesus Christ, on earth, and all that is necessary for salvation. We believe that all that is necessary for salvation, the basic “tools” for salvation, was already revealed to us. We call this the “deposit of Faith”. Now, even though this Deposit, this public revelation, has already been given once and for all, we as a Church can and do still come to deeper understandings, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, of that Deposit. Thus, we may come to a deeper understanding of the nature of God (i.e. the Trinitarian doctrines), what happens in the Eucharist, etc. This deeper understanding of the Deposit, a clarification of our beliefs, happens in the Catholic Church in two ways: through the inspiration of the Pope by the Holy Spirit (Papal Infallibility), and the inspiration of the College of Bishops as a whole, in a Council.

Catholics believe that there are still prophets and prophetesses (yes, there have been female prophets in Catholicism, just like in the Bible). If we read about the lives of many canonized saints of the Church, we will see many writings on revelations received from angels, Heavenly saints, and God. Many of these revelations are very important in the Catholic Church, and have been approved by Church authorities as actual spiritual encounters to be known by the Church as a whole.

So what is the difference between that and public revelation? Public revelation is what is necessary for salvation. Again, all that is necessary for salvation has already been revealed to us, and finds its human/divine expression in Jesus Christ. Private revelations may help us on our way to salvation, and may give us future knowledge about various events, however they are not required for us to believe to attain salvation. Many important private revelations from Heaven have been incorporated into the Church’s spiritual life.

So, Catholics do not believe that God has stopped talking to His children. We do not believe that prophets ceased (what we do believe is that there is no need for prophets to reveal things required for salvation, i.e. public revelation), or that God no longer provides loving guidance. We believe that God is active in the lives of believers. God is active through His Church. All revelation required for salvation has been revealed and is complete. God can inspire through the Spirit the Pope and the College of Bishops to help in clarifying and defining the Deposit of Faith. God talks to us individually through the Holy Spirit, as well as through Scripture. Heaven has revealed various messages throughout the history of the Church as proof that Catholics do not believe that revelation (as a whole) from God has ceased.

 

[ParkerD]

I don’t understand the second part of your interpretation at all. I agree with most of the first paragraph. If Jesus is the way to the Father and He completed the Ultimate Sacrifice for us, what need do we have of further prophets. I’m actually surprised that anyone would think we need more prophets? Certainly we need guidance, but that guidance is through Jesus Christ and His Church - not through anyone else or any prophets that come after Him!! What new message could they possibly have that tops Jesus? Studying the Bible “seriously and sincerely” has nothing to do with it. Even without the Bible, we still have Jesus, we still have His Sacrifice and we still have His Body and Blood in the Eucharist!

Jay,
I am still baffled. “New message?” Do you think every prophet who ever lived had an original and unique message? Why would the apostles and Luke write about prophets among them (not false prophets, but the real kind) after Christ had ascended, if that aspect of the true new covenant gospel had been withdrawn or completed by Christ? Christ is not the author of confusion (but men certainly are).

Why the need for prophets? Because Christ’s work is not yet completed on earth, and it will not be completed for a very long time. There is much yet to be done during the days and years ahead.

 

[Jay53]

I would just like to correct what I see as a misrepresentation (or misunderstanding) of the traditional Christian position. I will speak for Catholics.

Catholics do not believe that God “stopped talking to His children”. We do not believe that prophets ceased, or that He does not provide us with loving guidance, or that He is not involved in human history.

Catholics believe that all public revelation is complete. Pope Benedict XVI defined public revelation nicely-"…the revealing action of God directed to humanity as a whole…", and “It is called ‘Revelation’ because in it God gradually made himself known to men, to the point of becoming man himself, in order to draw to himself the whole world and unite it with himself through his Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ. It is not a matter therefore of [merely] intellectual communication, but of a life-giving process in which God comes to meet man.”"

So, public revelation is God revealing Himself to man, culminating in God incarnate, Jesus Christ, on earth, and all that is necessary for salvation. We believe that all that is necessary for salvation, the basic “tools” for salvation, was already revealed to us. We call this the “deposit of Faith”. Now, even though this Deposit, this public revelation, has already been given once and for all, we as a Church can and do still come to deeper understandings, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, of that Deposit. Thus, we may come to a deeper understanding of the nature of God (i.e. the Trinitarian doctrines), what happens in the Eucharist, etc. This deeper understanding of the Deposit, a clarification of our beliefs, happens in the Catholic Church in two ways: through the inspiration of the Pope by the Holy Spirit (Papal Infallibility), and the inspiration of the College of Bishops as a whole, in a Council.

Catholics believe that there are still prophets and prophetesses (yes, there have been female prophets in Catholicism, just like in the Bible). If we read about the lives of many canonized saints of the Church, we will see many writings on revelations received from angels, Heavenly saints, and God. Many of these revelations are very important in the Catholic Church, and have been approved by Church authorities as actual spiritual encounters to be known by the Church as a whole.

So what is the difference between that and public revelation? Public revelation is what is necessary for salvation. Again, all that is necessary for salvation has already been revealed to us, and finds its human/divine expression in Jesus Christ. Private revelations may help us on our way to salvation, and may give us future knowledge about various events, however they are not required for us to believe to attain salvation. Many important private revelations from Heaven have been incorporated into the Church’s spiritual life.

So, Catholics do not believe that God has stopped talking to His children. We do not believe that prophets ceased (what we do believe is that there is no need for prophets to reveal things required for salvation, i.e. public revelation), or that God no longer provides loving guidance. We believe that God is active in the lives of believers. God is active through His Church. All revelation required for salvation has been revealed and is complete. God can inspire through the Spirit the Pope and the College of Bishops to help in clarifying and defining the Deposit of Faith. God talks to us individually through the Holy Spirit, as well as through Scripture. Heaven has revealed various messages throughout the history of the Church as proof that Catholics do not believe that revelation (as a whole) from God has ceased.

Thank you, Theosis M! You definitely explained that better than I was attempting to!

 

[Jay53]

Jay,
I am still baffled. “New message?” Do you think every prophet who ever lived had an original and unique message? Why would the apostles and Luke write about prophets among them (not false prophets, but the real kind) after Christ had ascended, if that aspect of the true new covenant gospel had been withdrawn or completed by Christ? Christ is not the author of confusion (but men certainly are).

Why the need for prophets? Because Christ’s work is not yet completed on earth, and it will not be completed for a very long time. There is much yet to be done during the days and years ahead.

Please read Theosis M’s explanation. She explained it much better than I did!

 

[Jay53]

Jay,
I am still baffled. “New message?” Do you think every prophet who ever lived had an original and unique message? Why would the apostles and Luke write about prophets among them (not false prophets, but the real kind) after Christ had ascended, if that aspect of the true new covenant gospel had been withdrawn or completed by Christ? Christ is not the author of confusion (but men certainly are).

Why the need for prophets? Because Christ’s work is not yet completed on earth, and it will not be completed for a very long time. There is much yet to be done during the days and years ahead.

But as TheosisM said, we don’t need any of these prophets for salvation. Jesus Christ is our salvation!

 

[TheosisM]

Thank you, Theosis M! You definitely explained that better than I was attempting to!

No problem. I’m a he btw

 

[Xavierlives]

Jay53,
My goodness. I’m sorry, but I am quite surprised at this particular question.

He Who is the loving and redeeming Savior of us all, had just completed the most important act in all of human history (by far the most important)–suffering the incomprehensible pain and anguish and physical, emotional, as well as spiritual torment when He felt the weight of our sins alone without the succoring help of His Father during the moment when He felt He had been forsaken and asked “why?”–yet when He said with the greatest of relief and humility-yet-triumph, “It is finished”–could it be that some would not comprehend that what was finished for Him (the infinite atonement) did not mean He would not continue to be involved in human history just as He had before He came to this earth as the perfect baby Jesus?

The Bible does not teach that prophets would cease when Christ ascended. He still wants us to have the kind of guidance that He gave the world through the prophets of old. The notion that He would not want to provide that same kind of loving guidance, baffles my mind for anyone who has studied the Bible seriously and sincerely.

Not to throw a monkey wrench in your system of continuity of prophets, but could you point to a particular scripture (in the New Testiment) that proves this? Everything I see shifts to “anti-christs” and similar wordings.

 

[ParkerD]

I would just like to correct what I see as a misrepresentation (or misunderstanding) of the traditional Christian position. I will speak for Catholics.

Catholics do not believe that God “stopped talking to His children”. We do not believe that prophets ceased, or that He does not provide us with loving guidance, or that He is not involved in human history.

Catholics believe that all public revelation is complete. Pope Benedict XVI defined public revelation nicely-"…the revealing action of God directed to humanity as a whole…", and “It is called ‘Revelation’ because in it God gradually made himself known to men, to the point of becoming man himself, in order to draw to himself the whole world and unite it with himself through his Incarnate Son, Jesus Christ. It is not a matter therefore of [merely] intellectual communication, but of a life-giving process in which God comes to meet man.”"

So, public revelation is God revealing Himself to man, culminating in God incarnate, Jesus Christ, on earth, and all that is necessary for salvation. We believe that all that is necessary for salvation, the basic “tools” for salvation, was already revealed to us. We call this the “deposit of Faith”. Now, even though this Deposit, this public revelation, has already been given once and for all, we as a Church can and do still come to deeper understandings, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, of that Deposit. Thus, we may come to a deeper understanding of the nature of God (i.e. the Trinitarian doctrines), what happens in the Eucharist, etc. This deeper understanding of the Deposit, a clarification of our beliefs, happens in the Catholic Church in two ways: through the inspiration of the Pope by the Holy Spirit (Papal Infallibility), and the inspiration of the College of Bishops as a whole, in a Council.

Catholics believe that there are still prophets and prophetesses (yes, there have been female prophets in Catholicism, just like in the Bible). If we read about the lives of many canonized saints of the Church, we will see many writings on revelations received from angels, Heavenly saints, and God. Many of these revelations are very important in the Catholic Church, and have been approved by Church authorities as actual spiritual encounters to be known by the Church as a whole.

So what is the difference between that and public revelation? Public revelation is what is necessary for salvation. Again, all that is necessary for salvation has already been revealed to us, and finds its human/divine expression in Jesus Christ. Private revelations may help us on our way to salvation, and may give us future knowledge about various events, however they are not required for us to believe to attain salvation. Many important private revelations from Heaven have been incorporated into the Church’s spiritual life.

So, Catholics do not believe that God has stopped talking to His children. We do not believe that prophets ceased (what we do believe is that there is no need for prophets to reveal things required for salvation, i.e. public revelation), or that God no longer provides loving guidance. We believe that God is active in the lives of believers. God is active through His Church. All revelation required for salvation has been revealed and is complete. God can inspire through the Spirit the Pope and the College of Bishops to help in clarifying and defining the Deposit of Faith. God talks to us individually through the Holy Spirit, as well as through Scripture. Heaven has revealed various messages throughout the history of the Church as proof that Catholics do not believe that revelation (as a whole) from God has ceased.

TheosisM,
Of course Catholic leaders teach that doctrine. It is completely to be expected. They would know full well that they are not receiving revelations that they would dare call “public revelation”. They would know that the most effective way to preserve their position of authority is to assert that “God is active through His church.” That gives them the complete doctrinal blanket to do whatever they want and say it was inspired, and say only they have the authority to understand the Bible and teach others about it.

The Bible does not teach that kind of doctrine at all. Sorry. It is wrong doctrine.

 

[TheosisM]

Jay,
I am still baffled. “New message?” Do you think every prophet who ever lived had an original and unique message? Why would the apostles and Luke write about prophets among them (not false prophets, but the real kind) after Christ had ascended, if that aspect of the true new covenant gospel had been withdrawn or completed by Christ? Christ is not the author of confusion (but men certainly are).

Why the need for prophets? Because Christ’s work is not yet completed on earth, and it will not be completed for a very long time. There is much yet to be done during the days and years ahead.

They would write about prophets among them, because there were prophets! Many of the canonized saints in Catholicism were prophets and prophetesses. Many of their revelations have been incorporated into the spiritual life of Catholicism in a number of ways.

 

[Jay53]

No problem. I’m a he btw

Oh, sorry! I guess I just got the impression you were female from your name - not sure why, though. (I probably have alot of wrong impressions about people on here based on their names. )

 

[Jay53]

TheosisM,
Of course Catholic leaders teach that doctrine. It is completely to be expected. They would know full well that they are not receiving revelations that they would dare call “public revelation”. They would know that the most effective way to preserve their position of authority is to assert that “God is active through His church.” That gives them the complete doctrinal blanket to do whatever they want and say it was inspired, and say only they have the authority to understand the Bible and teach others about it.

The Bible does not teach that kind of doctrine at all. Sorry. It is wrong doctrine.

What are you suggesting? You make this sound like some sort of conspiracy theory!

 

[TheosisM]

TheosisM,
Of course Catholic leaders teach that doctrine. It is completely to be expected. They would know full well that they are not receiving revelations that they would dare call “public revelation”. They would know that the most effective way to preserve their position of authority is to assert that “God is active through His church.” That gives them the complete doctrinal blanket to do whatever they want and say it was inspired, and say only they have the authority to understand the Bible and teach others about it.

The Bible does not teach that kind of doctrine at all. Sorry. It is wrong doctrine.

The Bible does not teach what kind of doctrine? The things that you accuse Catholic leaders in this post can equally apply to Mormon leaders, I hope you can see that. The Mormon president asserts “only I can receive revelation for the entire church”. He knows full well that he is not receiving revelations, and knows that the most effective way to preserve his position of authority is to assert that “God is active through His church”. That gives them the complete doctrinal blanket to do whatever they want and say it was inspired. The Bible does not teach that kind of doctrine at all. Sorry it is wrong doctrine. See?

 

[TheosisM]

What are you suggesting? You make this sound like some sort of conspiracy theory!

ParkerD comes from a tradition that asserts a Great Apostasy of the original church. Therefore, because there was a falling away of the priesthood authority, something went wrong with how the church functions, including church structure. So, there is a frequent assertion that the leaders wanted to “trick” the people and claim authority where there was none.

 

[TheosisM]

Oh, sorry! I guess I just got the impression you were female from your name - not sure why, though. (I probably have alot of wrong impressions about people on here based on their names. )

It’s okay. “Theosis” is also called “deification” and is particularly emphasized in Eastern Catholicism and Orthodoxy. “M” is just a random letter I chose.

 

[zaffiroborant]

TheosisM,
Of course Catholic leaders teach that doctrine. It is completely to be expected. They would know full well that they are not receiving revelations that they would dare call “public revelation”. They would know that the most effective way to preserve their position of authority is to assert that “God is active through His church.” That gives them the complete doctrinal blanket to do whatever they want and say it was inspired, and say only they have the authority to understand the Bible and teach others about it.

The Bible does not teach that kind of doctrine at all. Sorry. It is wrong doctrine.

Nice! TheosisM writes a post explaining our belief without touching on yours at all and instead of responding with something like “thanks for the explanation though I still don’t agree” you come out with straight up ugly.