LDS apostle belittles non-LDS in world wide conference broadcast

[Marie5890]

No I haven’t. But I also am not an atheist who seeks to destroy other faith traditions.

I am aware of Tom Phillips and his case against TSM as well as his interaction with Pres Holland. The path the TP has taken and the losses he has experienced is different from mine.

I have never have had a need to have any Mormon prove anything to me. When I left Mormonism, it was a clean break. I still have former roomates of mine when I lived in Provo who are still very TBM and we get along just fine.

WIth that in mind, I have really dont think there would be a problem. Remember, TP no longer believes in Christ, no longer seeks discipleship.

I still do. And based on Pres Holland’s talk, so does he. We have that in common.

 

[JamesCollins]

So Marie, were you LDS when you had personal interactions with Mr. Holland? Have you interacted with him since your disaffection from the LDS church and conversion to Catholic Christianity?

I ask because since I left the LDS church, my LDS friends and family have changed their treatment of me. I am now anathema. My so-called friends from my last ward barely say hi to me and act uncomfortable when they see me. I have not said anything publicly other than that I no longer believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. I have been respectful of their beliefs, but they now act like I have two heads.

I have also learned that my very LDS mother does not love me unconditionally as a mother should. I had a good relationship with my parents before I left the LDS church but apparently a good relationship is only possible with their children who are LDS. Since then, my mother taught my young children about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon behind my back. She knew that was a line not to be crossed, but she did it anyway and lied about it when confronted. Since I left the LDS church, my mother became very intrusive into our marriage and family and tried to manipulate us to get what she wanted (access to our children to teach them about Mormonism so she could save them from the evil Catholic Church). I constantly gave her the benefit of the doubt until I found out what she did with my children. We knew something was up when our children were acting out and when we talked to them, we found out what was going on. My mother had the gall to tell me that my children were mistaken and didn’t know what they were talking about! Fortunately, my siblings have not followed my parents’ lead in how to treat me.

As you know, many of us who have left the LDS church have experienced first hand how LDS friends and family can change in their behavior towards those who leave.
Tom Phillips, who was managing editor of MormonThink for a time, experienced this with Mr. Holland when he asked him via email regarding the truth claims of the LDS church, especially concerning the Book of Mormon. Mr. Phillips published his emails to Mr. Holland on the MormonThink website. He did not publish Mr. Holland’s entire response to his initial email on questions related to the truth claims of the LDS church due to a very corporate legal warning at the bottom of his response to Mr. Phillips; however, he did include select quotations from Mr. Holland’s email in his response. Link is below:

mormonthink.com/tomphillips.htm#letters

In full disclosure, Tom Phillips was involved in the UK lawsuit against Thomas Monson. While I do not agree with what he did in that case, Mr. Phillips nonetheless has done good in spreading truth about Joseph Smith through MormonThink and other venues.

I left Mormonism and the Mormons I know don’t hesitate to shake my hand when I attend the LDS Church with my family. We still talk to each other, and I am comfortable with all of them. I think Holland was talking about a lax Christianity in which people don’t live their faith. I would guess he respects sincere Christians who are striving to follow Christ according to their understanding especially including faithful Catholics.

 

[Marie5890]

I left Mormonism and the Mormons I know don’t hesitate to shake my hand when I attend the LDS Church with my family. We still talk to each other, and I am comfortable with all of them. I think Holland was talking about a lax Christianity in which people don’t live their faith. I would guess he respects sincere Christians who are striving to follow Christ according to their understanding especially including faithful Catholics.

That would be in keeping with the man I knew.

 

[JamesCollins]

That would be in keeping with the man I knew.

I know a lot of Mormons who love Billy Graham, John Paul II, and Mother Teresa …
They even quote them in their sacrament meeting talks.

 

[Marie5890]

I know a lot of Mormons who love Billy Graham, John Paul II, and Mother Teresa …
They even quote them in their sacrament meeting talks.

I can well believe that.

 

[JamesCollins]

I can well believe that.

I attended a multi-stake conference when President Benson spoke highly of Billy Graham who he had met while serving in the Eisenhower Administration. He followed that by having his daughter (maybe granddaughter) sing “How Great Thou Art.”

 

[iepuras]

I left Mormonism and the Mormons I know don’t hesitate to shake my hand when I attend the LDS Church with my family. We still talk to each other, and I am comfortable with all of them. I think Holland was talking about a lax Christianity in which people don’t live their faith. I would guess he respects sincere Christians who are striving to follow Christ according to their understanding especially including faithful Catholics.

I’m glad others have better relationships with Mormons than I have upon leaving. I thought it was going to be ok at first because I tried to be respectful and supportive of them, especially with my LDS family, and hoping they would reciprocate. I attended a sister’s out of town temple wedding only to sit outside in the Texas heat. I constantly gave my mother the benefit of the doubt when she behaved badly even when my husband didn’t want to be so charitable. And it all came back to bite me! My experiences are not uncommon and by no means the worst ex-Mormons have experienced.

Based on Mr. Holland’s public statements, which is really all we have to go on, he was clearly criticizing “lax Christianity”. However, many LDS have misconceptions of what Christianity asks of Christians. As I have stated before, many LDS (myself included when I was LDS) incorrectly believe all Protestants have it easy and are lax because they all believe in once saved always saved and Catholics have it easy and are lax because all they have to do is go to confession without actually putting in any effort to “be good”. Mr. Holland was not only going after lax Mormons and Christians, he was also playing into the misconception that Christianity is lax in general.

 

[JamesCollins]

I’m glad others have better relationships with Mormons than I have upon leaving. I thought it was going to be ok at first because I tried to be respectful and supportive of them, especially with my LDS family, and hoping they would reciprocate. I attended a sister’s out of town temple wedding only to sit outside in the Texas heat. I constantly gave my mother the benefit of the doubt when she behaved badly even when my husband didn’t want to be so charitable. And it all came back to bite me! My experiences are not uncommon and by no means the worst ex-Mormons have experienced.

Based on Mr. Holland’s public statements, which is really all we have to go on, he was clearly criticizing “lax Christianity”. However, many LDS have misconceptions of what Christianity asks of Christians. As I have stated before, many LDS (myself included when I was LDS) incorrectly believe all Protestants have it easy and are lax because they all believe in once saved always saved and Catholics have it easy and are lax because all they have to do is go to confession without actually putting in any effort to “be good”. Mr. Holland was not only going after lax Mormons and Christians, he was also playing into the misconception that Christianity is lax in general.

Dietrich Bonhoffer might have agreed with Holland. With church attendance among Christians falling, Holland may have a point. I am sure what he is describing does not apply to the Catholics attending mass weekly at our local parishes, but those Catholics are a minority.

 

[PaulDupre1]

So Marie, were you LDS when you had personal interactions with Mr. Holland? Have you interacted with him since your disaffection from the LDS church and conversion to Catholic Christianity?

I ask because since I left the LDS church, my LDS friends and family have changed their treatment of me. I am now anathema. My so-called friends from my last ward barely say hi to me and act uncomfortable when they see me. I have not said anything publicly other than that I no longer believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. I have been respectful of their beliefs, but they now act like I have two heads.

I have also learned that my very LDS mother does not love me unconditionally as a mother should. I had a good relationship with my parents before I left the LDS church but apparently a good relationship is only possible with their children who are LDS. Since then, my mother taught my young children about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon behind my back. She knew that was a line not to be crossed, but she did it anyway and lied about it when confronted. Since I left the LDS church, my mother became very intrusive into our marriage and family and tried to manipulate us to get what she wanted (access to our children to teach them about Mormonism so she could save them from the evil Catholic Church). I constantly gave her the benefit of the doubt until I found out what she did with my children. We knew something was up when our children were acting out and when we talked to them, we found out what was going on. My mother had the gall to tell me that my children were mistaken and didn’t know what they were talking about! Fortunately, my siblings have not followed my parents’ lead in how to treat me.

As you know, many of us who have left the LDS church have experienced first hand how LDS friends and family can change in their behavior towards those who leave.

My experiences with LDS after I left were similar to yours.

I discovered two things about the LDS:

1: Their love is always conditional - conditioned upon your testimony of Joseph Smith.

2: They lie. Lying is the one thing for which you can depend on a Mormon.

Paul

 

[zaffiroborant]

I left Mormonism and the Mormons I know don’t hesitate to shake my hand when I attend the LDS Church with my family. We still talk to each other, and I am comfortable with all of them. I think Holland was talking about a lax Christianity in which people don’t live their faith. I would guess he respects sincere Christians who are striving to follow Christ according to their understanding especially including faithful Catholics.

Could you point out the part in his speech where he voices his respect for sincere, striving non-LDS Christians, thanks.

 

[JamesCollins]

Could you point out the part in his speech where he voices his respect for sincere, striving non-LDS Christians, thanks.

You point out the part in his speech where he said his words apply to all Christians. Note the word “sometimes” which prefaces his remarks about lax Christianity. There is no reason to look for offense in his remarks when none was intended unless you consider yourself to be a lax Christian.

 

[Mumbles140]

Could you point out the part in his speech where he voices his respect for sincere, striving non-LDS Christians, thanks.

I stepped away from this, but I’m back after reading this post. Look, there are several people who are former LDS who seem to know the man personally or through his teachings ‘as Mormons’ and accept that he is talking about a general lax in Christianity. You and several others, who are aware of him as only Catholics, and in light of previous statements he has made, believe he was taking a shot at all who were not Mormon, correct?

I am a Catholic - always have been, always will be. I know nothing about this man, and have neither heard nor read a single word of his until this quote. I did not find any offense in it, but I don’t even want to focus on that. I want to focus on whether or not, if a Catholic said it, we would consider it sound advice.

It’s as simple as this - is it a characteristic of our time (not necessarily unique to our time, as we have already discussed) for people to act like God is a friend who doesn’t ask anything more than to say that we believe in Him and go about our lives as if He didn’t exist? As if He asks nothing more than a one-time profession of faith and that punches one’s ticket? If so, then we can ignore the context and say, as Catholics, how can we continue to combat this. If it isn’t an issue in these times, then I would deduce he is talking solely about Mormons, as he would (presumably) be the expert on that population.

 

[Mumbles140]

Thanks for that, Marie. I, for one, appreciate the information. However, I know the Mormon concept of God, and I know fairly well how Mormons view apostate Christianity and the Catholic Church. I have no doubt that Holland’s reference to
people who gods who do not demand much (such as obedience, paying a full tithe, keeping your covenants, attending your meetings, holding family prayer, magnifying your callings, etc.), gods who pat us on the head (once saved, always saved, no matter what you do afterwards, unlike Mormonism which requires constant diligence and effort), is a reference to “other” churches. I’ve sat through enough such talks and firesides to know this. "These folks invoke the name of Jesus as one who was this kind of ‘comfortable’ God. Really?” A "comfortable God would be one who doesn’t require much. The Mormon God requires much. He was talking about non-Mormons.

However, I don’t feel belittled by his remarks because my faith and my relation to God are not dependent on his beliefs or on what he tells people. Besides, I think his remarks may not be true; and anyway, Mormonism is not the exception to his condemnation that he thinks it is. So, (1) Yes, he was condemning other churches, whether directly to their face, or in vague camouflage, and (2) it doesn’t bother me, and it shouldn’t bother anyone else. Let him believe what he wants, and I’ll live according to what I believe God wants.

Sorry to go back so far in the thread, but I was just re-reading through it and wanted to make a couple of points. You talk about how he is clearly referring to Christians who are not Mormons (ignoring in my statement the argument of whether Mormons are truly ‘Christians’) - does that necessarily mean he is talking about ALL Christians who are not Mormons? Or can we say there are some denominations that preach OSAS and other ‘feel good’ messages that were perhaps targeted, but those views may not apply to Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, or High Anglicans?

Also, you are dead-to-rights about now letting his comments bother you. Personally, I didn’t find it insulting to the Church. If I did, I’d think “Well, he may be misguided, but he isn’t slanderous or misleading (unlike others who shamelessly attack the Church), so let me live a life of service to God so that, hopefully, by my example, members of the Mormon church will come to know the full truth revealed through Jesus Christ.”

 

[zaffiroborant]

I stepped away from this, but I’m back after reading this post. Look, there are several people who are former LDS who seem to know the man personally or through his teachings ‘as Mormons’ and accept that he is talking about a general lax in Christianity. You and several others, who are aware of him as only Catholics, and in light of previous statements he has made, believe he was taking a shot at all who were not Mormon, correct?

I am a Catholic - always have been, always will be. I know nothing about this man, and have neither heard nor read a single word of his until this quote. I did not find any offense in it, but I don’t even want to focus on that. I want to focus on whether or not, if a Catholic said it, we would consider it sound advice.

It’s as simple as this - is it a characteristic of our time (not necessarily unique to our time, as we have already discussed) for people to act like God is a friend who doesn’t ask anything more than to say that we believe in Him and go about our lives as if He didn’t exist? As if He asks nothing more than a one-time profession of faith and that punches one’s ticket? If so, then we can ignore the context and say, as Catholics, how can we continue to combat this. If it isn’t an issue in these times, then I would deduce he is talking solely about Mormons, as he would (presumably) be the expert on that population.

Why would he be speaking about Mormons when he is talking to the Mormons who will go out to convert everyone else? The whole speech is a rah rah go convert the slacker believers in a marigold god.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Sorry to go back so far in the thread, but I was just re-reading through it and wanted to make a couple of points. You talk about how he is clearly referring to Christians who are not Mormons (ignoring in my statement the argument of whether Mormons are truly ‘Christians’) - does that necessarily mean he is talking about ALL Christians who are not Mormons? Or can we say there are some denominations that preach OSAS and other ‘feel good’ messages that were perhaps targeted, but those views may not apply to Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox, or High Anglicans?

Also, you are dead-to-rights about now letting his comments bother you. Personally, I didn’t find it insulting to the Church. If I did, I’d think “Well, he may be misguided, but he isn’t slanderous or misleading (unlike others who shamelessly attack the Church), so let me live a life of service to God so that, hopefully, by my example, members of the Mormon church will come to know the full truth revealed through Jesus Christ.”

While I certainly don’t see that those views apply to Catholicism or Orthodoxy or a number of other religions, I don’t see where Holland made any exceptions. I have had a number of people who told me that Catholicism was basically easy peasy since you could just, sin fess up, sin fess up, sin fess up, and you’re good to go no change required. Sounds pretty marigoldy to me.

 

[iepuras]

While I certainly don’t see that those views apply to Catholicism or Orthodoxy or a number of other religions, I don’t see where Holland made any exceptions. I have had a number of people who told me that Catholicism was basically easy peasy since you could just, sin fess up, sin fess up, sin fess up, and you’re good to go no change required. Sounds pretty marigoldy to me.

Yes! I would say that in reality the majority of Christian churches are not easy peasy, marigold picking churches. However, many Mormons believe that all Christians are some type of easy peasy marigold pickers because they either subscribe to OSAS or they go to confession but never really change. Most Mormons don’t know what Christianity really teaches. When I was Mormon, I thought I was pretty smart and knew what Christians believed better than other Mormons. Come to find out, I’m really not all that knowledgeable or smart and that I actually knew next to nothing of the Bible or what Christianity is really all about. Once I started to actually learn what Christianity is really about, I started RCIA.

 

[JamesCollins]

Why would he be speaking about Mormons when he is talking to the Mormons who will go out to convert everyone else? The whole speech is a rah rah go convert the slacker believers in a marigold god.

I don’t believe he was talking about Mormons. He was talking about Christians of other denominations. I just don’t think he was talking about all Christians or even most Christians. I’d guess he was talking about the kind of Christian that goes to church on Sunday, parties and sins all week as if God wasn’t going to judge his/her actions, and then comes back the next Sunday to see his/her buddy Jesus.

 

[Mumbles140]

Why would he be speaking about Mormons when he is talking to the Mormons who will go out to convert everyone else? The whole speech is a rah rah go convert the slacker believers in a marigold god.

In that specific point, the logical deduction would be as follows:

If his point really is characteristic of our age, then it presumes he is talking about the whole world (or some sub-set thereof).

If his point is not characteristic of our age, then he is either incredibly misinformed, or he is not talking about the greater world. Since anyone can read and form an opinion about global trends, and if the majority of people felt his views had not merit, it would lead to believe he was not talking about the whole world. And, since he is more of an expert on Mormons than the majority of us, I would deduce that the comment would be directed towards them, meaning the problem would only exist in Mormon society, as the determination was that it was not a problem in this world.

However, all of that is moot if you accept the point as valid - that this problem exists in our current times, which I do accept. The question posed was whether you do as well?

 

[Mumbles140]

While I certainly don’t see that those views apply to Catholicism or Orthodoxy or a number of other religions, I don’t see where Holland made any exceptions. I have had a number of people who told me that Catholicism was basically easy peasy since you could just, sin fess up, sin fess up, sin fess up, and you’re good to go no change required. Sounds pretty marigoldy to me.

But the absence of a distinction doesn’t mean one isn’t implicit. I go back to my statement regarding “Americans prefer fast food over steamed vegetables”. While I didn’t state any qualifications, wouldn’t you presume that it would not apply to vegetarians, vegans, people on the Paleo diet, etc? Isn’t the point of a generalization to draw attention to either a growing trend or a majority opinion, not labeling that on every single person who falls in the category (if a category is even named)?

Also, I know you are making a point, but the very fact that you have to try and intentionally minimize the process of Reconciliation isn’t beneficial for your argument. Compare three sample alternatives of Reconciliation among Christian beliefs:

1. I don’t need to be sorry for my sins because I believe in Jesus Christ, who died on the Cross for me, and that is enough.
2. I don’t need to dwell on my sins or try to amend my life because I can just think that I feel bad about that and tell God “Sorry” and all will be forgiven.
3. I must reflect upon my sins, confess them to a spiritual leader, make an oath to avoid sin and even the temptation of sin, perform a penitential act, and have the mental resolve to really try and stop sinning.

Which sounds like picking marigolds? Which sounds like the human idea of an undemanding God? And which sounds like Divine Revelation, from a God who willfully created us with free will, and loves us so much that He will allow us to damn ourselves if we choose not to reconcile with Him?

Also, I addressed the Corporal Works of Mercy in a previous post. Add on to that the 6 Precepts of the Church and I think we are moving farther and farther away from ‘picking marigolds’. The very fact that we believe in different severity of sins leads to the idea that ours is a God asks us to follow Him to salvation, not one where we determine how we will be saved through Him.

 

[Sabacthani]

Jeffery Holland member of the quorum of the quorum of the twelve apostles in the LDS church had this to say about non-LDS people who are seeking God.

“Sadly enough, my young friends, it is a characteristic of our age that if people want any gods at all, they want them to be gods who do not demand much, comfortable gods and smooth gods who not only don’t rock the boat but don’t even row it, gods who pat us on the head, make us giggle, then tell us to run along and pick marigolds. Talk about man creating God in his own image! Sometimes — and this seems the greatest irony of all — these folks invoke the name of Jesus as one who was this kind of ‘comfortable’ God. Really?”

How exactly do you read that as talking about “non-LDS people”?

He’s talking about people generally. LDS and nonLDS. I’m sure that if we looked around we’d find Catholic clergy making the same true observation that God demands more from us than cafeteria comfort. Holland is telling Mormons not to slack off.

You’re reading something into this quote that isn’t there.