Lds b.o.a?

[Marie5890]

The CES letter is the go to document these days. John Dehlin posted his interview with the author Jeremy Runnels a couple of weeks ago on Mormon Stories.

Thanks for the info…

 

[Porknpie]

I have compassion for them.

Their leaders are and keep changing what has been well held beliefs.

It’s not easy to make those kinds of adjustments.

What the 21st leadership of the LDS church is doing basically undoes Joseph Smith’s teaching, the so-called “THE prophet” was is reportedly to have “restored” Christ’s church.

Clearly, the 21st century leaders are distancing themselves from Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith and what he taught. . The Prophet.

The LDS is changing so much of what it has taught as doctrine. So imagine a day…when the LDS Church truthfully says :

“there was no great apostasy”

“but our faith is not dependent on it”

Then what?

 

[SteveVH]

The LDS is changing so much of what it has taught as doctrine. So imagine a day…when the LDS Church truthfully says :

“there was no great apostasy”

“but our faith is not dependent on it”

Then what?

No apostasy - No need for a restoration - No need for Joseph Smith. That would pretty much do it and is why I consider the “Great Apostasy” question the lynch pin. Although the BOA, having been proved a fraud, also proves their “prophet” a fraud and that doesn’t seem to matter. The lack of response on this very thread is evidence that they would just prefer to ignore it.

 

[Marie5890]

No apostasy - No need for a restoration - No need for Joseph Smith. That would pretty much do it and is why I consider the “Great Apostasy” question the lynch pin. Although the BOA, having been proved a fraud, also proves their “prophet” a fraud and that doesn’t seem to matter. The lack of response on this very thread is evidence that they would just prefer to ignore it.

It’s hard, really hard, when one has given their ALL. Their time, their energy, their money, every fiber of their souls and their very being.

Then to find out you have been deceived.

It does something to you. It does something to your very soul. The betrayal is beyond words.

In someways you start doubting who you are, because you have defined yourself by your beliefs. And your beliefs, you have come to realize, are bogus.

I wish I could articulate the mind screw, the soul screw, that you go thru.
At least I did for a time.
It’s when a Mormon (or former Mormon) is the most vulnerable. The most likely to take Christ Himself, God, too, and go…“It’s ALL a lie. It’s ALL bogus”

Satan has a hay day with Mormons who have realized they have been deceived to the very core.

 

[SteveVH]

It’s hard, really hard, when one has given their ALL. Their time, their energy, their money, every fiber of their souls and their very being.

Then to find out you have been deceived.

It does something to you. It does something to your very soul. The betrayal is beyond words.

In someways you start doubting who you are, because you have defined yourself by your beliefs. And your beliefs, you have come to realize, are bogus.

I wish I could articulate the mind screw, the soul screw, that you go thru.
At least I did for a time.
It’s when a Mormon (or former Mormon) is the most vulnerable. The most likely to take Christ Himself, God, too, and go…“It’s ALL a lie. It’s ALL bogus”

Satan has a hay day with Mormons who have realized they have been deceived to the very core.

Marie, thank you for this post. I just went through a little exercise in my own mind as to how I would react. My faith is everything to me and I don’t know what I would do if I found that what I believed was, in fact, a fabrication. It would be completely devastating. I would much rather find out that I have a terminal disease. I have really never considered this seriously when it comes to the LDS. I’m a little ashamed of myself.

And so here I would like to make an apology to the Mormons who may read this thread for being a bit callous in my posting style. And, I make a pledge to pray for all of you on a daily basis.

Thanks for the wake up call, Marie, and I mean that most sincerely.

God bless.

Steve

 

[Marie5890]

Marie, thank you for this post. I just went through a little exercise in my own mind as to how I would react. My faith is everything to me and I don’t know what I would do if I found that what I believed was, in fact, a fabrication. It would be completely devastating. I would much rather find out that I have a terminal disease. I have really never considered this seriously when it comes to the LDS. I’m a little ashamed of myself.

And so here I would like to make an apology to the Mormons who may read this thread for being a bit callous in my posting style. And, I make a pledge to pray for all of you on a daily basis.

Thanks for the wake up call, Marie, and I mean that most sincerely.

God bless.

Steve

You are very welcome.

Thank you for taking the time to step back and consider what Mormons go thru when reality devastates them and everything they have ever known.

 

[PaulDupre1]

The LDS is changing so much of what it has taught as doctrine. So imagine a day…when the LDS Church truthfully says :

“there was no great apostasy”

“but our faith is not dependent on it”

Then what?

I doubt they’ll ever say that. But I am sure the day is coming when this will be the conclusion of a General Conference talk:

“Your membership in the church, and your worthiness to participate in its sacred ordinances, are not dependent upon your acceptance of the Book of Abraham as the actual personal writings of Abraham. The gospel is bigger than a single book…”

Then, several years later:

“Your membership in the church, and your worthiness to participate in its sacred ordinances, are not dependent upon your acceptance of the Book of Mormon as the actual recorded history of an ancient people. The gospel is bigger than a single book…”

Both statements will end the same:

“… What determines your worthiness and, ultimately, your exaltation is your willingness to follow the living prophet and obey the Lord’s commandments given through that prophet, as the early saints obeyed the commandments given by the prophets during their lifetimes and went on to their exaltations. May you and your families always be blessed by living the commandments as taught by the Lord’s own church in your own lifetime. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.”

And they (most of them) won’t see it…they really won’t see it.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[LivingWaters7]

The LDS on this forum seem to be very quiet these days, I don’t think it’s just limited to this thread.

Anyway, as I mentioned, one can read LDS thoughts on the article in question here, for example. Most of the posters there seem delighted by the article. Most LDS I’ve interacted with online believe either one of two things about the Book of Abraham: 1) we don’t have the actual papyri that Smith used to “translate” the Book of Abraham, or 2) we do have the papyri, but it was really just a “catalyst” for him to receive by inspiration the text of the Book of Abraham (and therefore they can dismiss the fact that the papyri as translated by Egyptologists certainly doesn’t match what Smith claimed were translations, such as with the facsimiles).

It’s funny, LDS can basically dismiss the need for any of the “artifacts” related to their faith, whether the gold plates or the papyri. Smith had the gold plates, but he translated what we now have as the Book of Mormon by using a stone in a hat. Smith had the papyri, but it was just a catalyst for him to receive the text of the Book of Abraham by revelation. And of course, we see in that thread that it doesn’t really matter how it was received, since God has confirmed to the individual that it is true. Very interesting.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I doubt they’ll ever say that. But I am sure the day is coming when this will be the conclusion of a General Conference talk:

“Your membership in the church, and your worthiness to participate in its sacred ordinances, are not dependent upon your acceptance of the Book of Abraham as the actual personal writings of Abraham. The gospel is bigger than a single book…”

Then, several years later:

“Your membership in the church, and your worthiness to participate in its sacred ordinances, are not dependent upon your acceptance of the Book of Mormon as the actual recorded history of an ancient people. The gospel is bigger than a single book…”

Both statements will end the same:

“… What determines your worthiness and, ultimately, your exaltation is your willingness to follow the living prophet and obey the Lord’s commandments given through that prophet, as the early saints obeyed the commandments given by the prophets during their lifetimes and went on to their exaltations. May you and your families always be blessed by living the commandments as taught by the Lord’s own church in your own lifetime. I say these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.”

And they (most of them) won’t see it…they really won’t see it.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

Very true. LDS very much focus on the concept of what the “living prophets” have to say now, and that’s how many of them can “deal” with difficulties in the past. So, in the future, the living prophets (and/or the apologists) can claim that the dead prophets were only giving their opinions on the matter, but now that more is known, we know they were incorrect, and should follow the current counsel from God.

 

[PaulDupre1]

Very true. LDS very much focus on the concept of what the “living prophets” have to say now, and that’s how many of them can “deal” with difficulties in the past. So, in the future, the living prophets (and/or the apologists) can claim that the dead prophets were only giving their opinions on the matter, but now that more is known, we know they were incorrect, and should follow the current counsel from God.

Exactly. This is what I am also told by JWs: “The past is the past. Now that the lord has granted us greater light and knowledge, we must adjust our teachings accordingly.”

And they don’t see it. They really don’t see it. (sigh).

Paul

 

[iepuras]

Marie, thank you for this post. I just went through a little exercise in my own mind as to how I would react. My faith is everything to me and I don’t know what I would do if I found that what I believed was, in fact, a fabrication. It would be completely devastating. I would much rather find out that I have a terminal disease. I have really never considered this seriously when it comes to the LDS. I’m a little ashamed of myself.

And so here I would like to make an apology to the Mormons who may read this thread for being a bit callous in my posting style. And, I make a pledge to pray for all of you on a daily basis.

Thanks for the wake up call, Marie, and I mean that most sincerely.

God bless.

Steve

Thanks, Marie for your thoughtful post. And thank you, Steve for putting yourself in our shoes for a moment.

From my own experience, it is devastating to learn everything you were taught is a lie. Many Mormons don’t want to know Mormonism is false. This is the case with my family. It is much easier to vilify and shun the apostate than to engage in some serious self-reflection and questioning.

Mormonism is abusive to souls. Trust is destroyed. Families are destroyed. Thomas Smith who was a Mormon now Catholic was on Catholic Answers Live last week and cited some stats. Only about 10% of Mormons who stop believing convert to Christianity.

It is hard to believe in God after Mormonism much less join an actual Christian church, especially the Catholic Church.

 

[Marie5890]

Thanks, Marie for your thoughtful post. And thank you, Steve for putting yourself in our shoes for a moment.

From my own experience, it is devastating to learn everything you were taught is a lie. Many Mormons don’t want to know Mormonism is false. This is the case with my family. It is much easier to vilify and shun the apostate than to engage in some serious self-reflection and questioning.

Mormonism is abusive to souls. Trust is destroyed. Families are destroyed. Thomas Smith who was a Mormon now Catholic was on Catholic Answers Live last week and cited some stats. **Only about 10% of Mormons who stop believing convert to Christianity.

It is hard to believe in God after Mormonism much less join an actual Christian church, especially the Catholic Church.**

That is the great tragedy of Mormonism.
And Satan laughs.

People who were so devoted to God (even with a distorted view) to the very souls of their beings, turn the back on God and completely and totally walk away.

 

[SteveVH]

That is the great tragedy of Mormonism.
And Satan laughs.

People who were so devoted to God (even with a distorted view) to the very souls of their beings, turn the back on God and completely and totally walk away.

Yes. Diabolical. If my faith was proven to be a fraud I doubt I would continue searching for God. Where would I go? This very fact gives me incredible admiration for those of you who left and found your way home. I wonder if I would have found my way home.

God bless all you.

Steve

 

[Marie5890]

Yes. Diabolical. If my faith was proven to be a fraud I doubt I would continue searching for God. Where would I go? This very fact gives me incredible admiration for those of you who left and found your way home. I wonder if I would have found my way home.

God bless all you.

Steve

Steve, I can be really honest here. My finding my way home was truly a grace of God. Nothing less. It has zero to do with me. zero.

Also I have no doubt that all the rosaries and Masses my grandmother had said for me (not because I had become Mormon, but because I ended up disabled at a very young age) had great influences. I know she was always submitting my name to the Shrine of St Jude and having masses offered up for me…

That is why I came home. It wasnt anything I did, and I know it.
God’s grace and my grandmother’s faith.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, I can be really honest here. My finding my way home was truly a grace of God. Nothing less. It has zero to do with me. zero.

Also I have no doubt that all the rosaries and Masses my grandmother had said for me (not because I had become Mormon, but because I ended up disabled at a very young age) had great influences. I know she was always submitting my name to the Shrine of St Jude and having masses offered up for me…

That is why I came home. It wasnt anything I did, and I know it.
God’s grace and my grandmother’s faith.

Praise God!

 

[lax16]

You are very welcome.

Thank you for taking the time to step back and consider what Mormons go thru when reality devastates them and everything they have ever known.

Marie - I had a very interesting thing happen this evening. I was eating at a favorite restaurant tonight sitting outside and the patio dining was full. At the table next to ours were four people two in their late 20’s and two about 40ish - and they were discussing a book that was written by a historian and how it could be a deal breaker for Mormons.

The young woman was very clear with her dilemma. She said she is reading this book (I couldn’t hear the title) that has shaken her faith to the very core. She says the book is written by a LDS historian who had access to church documents so she knows the book is based on fact. One of her friends has left the church over it and was devastated to find out she had been lied to. She says she is struggling with a “very heavy heart” and is not sure what she is going to do next.

The man she was talking to was listening carefully, pointing out that as engineers they were accustomed to dealing with facts. However, he claimed that she should not worry about getting all the facts to prove things 100% and that she should not throw in the towel yet.

She told him that he had obviously not read the book because if he had, he would have serious doubts as well.

In my 8 years living in Utah, I have NEVER heard anyone discuss the LDS faith with such passion (they were talking very loudly) and without concern if people could hear them say something negative about the Mormon church.

Any idea what book this is? She made it seem as if it was a recent publication and that the author may have been a female.

Oh - she also said that BY is very disturbing.

Thanks!

 

[Marie5890]

Marie - I had a very interesting thing happen this evening. I was eating at a favorite restaurant tonight sitting outside and the patio dining was full. At the table next to ours were four people two in their late 20’s and two about 40ish - and they were discussing a book that was written by a historian and how it could be a deal breaker for Mormons.

The young woman was very clear with her dilemma. **She said she is reading this book (I couldn’t hear the title) that has shaken her faith to the very core. She says the book is written by a LDS historian who had access to church documents so she knows the book is based on fact. ** One of her friends has left the church over it and was devastated to find out she had been lied to. She says she is struggling with a “very heavy heart” and is not sure what she is going to do next.

The man she was talking to was listening carefully, pointing out that as engineers they were accustomed to dealing with facts. However, he claimed that she should not worry about getting all the facts to prove things 100% and that she should not throw in the towel yet.

She told him that he had obviously not read the book because if he had, he would have serious doubts as well.

In my 8 years living in Utah, I have NEVER heard anyone discuss the LDS faith with such passion (they were talking very loudly) and without concern if people could hear them say something negative about the Mormon church.

Any idea what book this is? She made it seem as if it was a recent publication and that the author may have been a female.

Oh - she also said that BY is very disturbing.

Thanks!

Lax, based on the bolded part that I have highlighted, my guess would be Fawn Brody with her book “No Man Knows My History”…

If that is the book, however, it’s not new.

Fawn is a known and credible historian, niece of former LDS Pres. David O McKay, and she was given rights to the restricted documents of the LDS historical library because McKay was her uncle…

amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540

Off the top of my head, that would be my first and immediate guess.

(more on her)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fawn_M._Brodie

 

[lax16]

Lax, based on the bolded part that I have highlighted, my guess would be Fawn Brody with her book “No Man Knows My History”…

If that is the book, however, it’s not new.

Fawn is a known and credible historian, niece of former LDS Pres. David O McKay, and she was given rights to the restricted documents of the LDS historical library because McKay was her uncle…

amazon.com/No-Man-Knows-My-History/dp/0679730540

Off the top of my head, that would be my first and immediate guess.

(more on her)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fawn_M._Brodie

Marie - Is BY mentioned in this book? She was appalled at whatever she read about him.

 

[Marie5890]

Marie - Is BY mentioned in this book? She was appalled at whatever she read about him.

Don’t know to be honest.

It could also be Grant Palmer’s book… "An insiders 's View of Mormon Origins "

My understanding is he too had access to the LDS archieves?

 

[iepuras]

Don’t know to be honest.

It could also be Grant Palmer’s book… "An insiders 's View of Mormon Origins "

My understanding is he too had access to the LDS archieves?

Maybe she was referring to Kay Burningham and her book “An American Fraud: One Lawyer’s Case Against Mormonism”. I haven’t read her book, but it has some good reviews. It’s not a biography so she probably also addressed Brigham Young. She is an attorney, however, and not an historian.