LDS Baptizes and Seals St. Damien to a "wife"

[kalt]

Nope, or we wouldn’t do it.

After all, you guys don’t think OUR baptisms are legitimate. Hasn’t it ever occured to you that a Mormon converting to Catholicism doesn’t NEED to be baptized, because of course he already was, legitimately?

And there you have it. Someone who chose to be baptized (confirmed) has said yes to God and no to the Mormons. What right do you think you have to take that person’s name and add it to a list in your church?

If these lists mean nothing, please change your ID from LDS to Catholic, because I have baptized you by proxy.

 

[kimmielittle]

Those were questions: I asked…no claim

You asked me where I got that stuff.

I replied.

 

[Janet1983]

(sigh)

You claimed that he said we did genealogy because we want to make some prophecy come true, and to find all the people of the earth in order to account for the twelve tribes.

Well now you can easily answer to the claims because the sources have been laid out in post #175.
There is no more need to discuss whether or not these sources have to be laid open because they have been laid open in post #175.

Here is the quote that directly refers to what you just pointed out:

As prophesied by Peter and Paul, all things were to be restored in this dispensation. Therefore, there must come, as part of that restoration, the long-awaited gathering of scattered Israel. It is a necessary prelude to the Second Coming of the Lord.

If you do however want more information on this topic I also have more sources from lds.org:

Gathering Scattered Israel:
Then and Now
By Paul K. Browning

…]
To answer, we need only go back to Abraham’s commission. His “seed”—both his literal posterity and all those who accept the gospel—was charged to bless all the families of the earth with the gospel and the priesthood. In 1834 the Lord emphasized through the Prophet Joseph Smith that the Latter-day Saints “are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham” (D&C 103:17). In 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received from the ancient prophet Elias the keys of the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham (see D&C 110:12). Thus, the blessings and responsibilities of the Abrahamic covenant have been restored to us.

Whatever might have been the shortcomings of ancient Israel, today all Church members have the opportunity to carry out the assignment outlined so long ago. The assignment is inherent with their receiving gospel covenants. Latter-day Saints thus see themselves as performing some of the concluding scenes of an anciently prophesied plan that was put into motion thousands of years ago. As the seed of Abraham, all of us have the responsibility to gather both our kindred and all others who are willing to gather. By offering them a chance to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ, we help them receive the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant and the opportunity of exaltation, and we further prepare ourselves to receive the blessings of eternal life.

 

[kalt]

Really?

This, from someone who has called me and my faith dishonest, dishonorable and secretive, and who has made fun of me because I refuse to do your job for you?

How very odd.

It is dishonest and dihonorable if it is taking dead people’s names and adding it to their roles without that person’s permission. No one gets to choose a faith for someone else - especially someone who’s dead, for crying out loud.

A child doesn’t have the right to change the listed faith of this parents. If his parents chose to be Catholic, for example, the kid has no right to add his name to the list of Mormons, even if the parents are listed as baptized by proxy.

No one has explained to me how the Mormons are offering baptism to the dead. God offers salvation. Why do Mormons think that they can change the person’s yes to God to a no, and make it a yes to the Mormons instead - in real life by LDS thinking but merely on paper?

LDS is all about geneology, but this is about revisionist history. You can’t change the factual reality that these people said yes to God and were baptized in the Catholic Church or were Jewish, so you change the records. Calling someone baptized by proxy doesn’t make it a reality.

No one is complaining that you are baptizing anyone - because you’re not. We are telling you that it is dishonest and disrespectful to change the records of people’s faith after they are dead. They made their choice, but you disregard that choice and put their names on a list that suits your own desires. (You being the LDS as a whole.)

This practice is indefensible. I can’t believe that otherwise normal people would support this. But since you do, please change your designation to Catholic on this site. That word means nothing, right, because you have the right to say no. Putting Catholic on this site only denotes that fact that you’ve been baptized Catholic by proxy. If you want, you may put that in. “Baptized Catholic by proxy”

 

[dianaiad]

Well after you seem to be somewhat incapable to find the appropriate references I spend 2 minutes of my time to find it and 3 to read it (thanks to the search engine on lds.org).

Does that finally help you?

For those who are not familiar with some of the terms: the living are on this side of the “veil” and the dead are on the other… That’s what both sides of the veil refer to…

Thank you. Now, WHAT WAS SO HARD ABOUT THAT, and WHY SHOULD I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FIND IT? There isn’t anything IN here that says what Kimmie claims it says!

Here is what Kimmie claimed for this article:

kimmielittle:

Their teachings teach that by ‘binding’ and ‘gathering’ The Twelve Tribes Of Israel…It will cause a Biblical prophesy to occur.

They are trying to count everyone on earth AND "bind’ “gather” them to LDS to account for the Ten Lost Tribes…

In other words, she claimed that the reason we do the genealogy and Temple work is specifically to find the twelve tribes of Israel and to cause a biblical prophecy to come true.

I asked her where she got that, and she said: “Elder Nelson.”

There is NO way I could have found THIS article using those ideas, for crying out loud! They simply aren’t IN there!

Yes, we believe that the gathering of Israel is going to happen in ‘this dispensation,’ but there isn’t anything in this article that states that we are CAUSING it by doing temple work, or that this is the purpose for Temple work.

Kimmie already provided the only quote that relates to Temple work, and I agreed with her at that time; it was accurate. We DO do genealogy and Temple work 'vicariously to gather individuals unto the Lord and into their families." That’s it; it’s personal and family related, not to find the lost ten tribes or to make some prophecy come true.

Quite the opposite. We believe that our genealogical work, and perhaps even the increasing popularity of genealogy in general, is the fulfilment of a prophecy,(Malachi 4:5-6) not the cause of one, and if we find the ten tribes (and so far it doesn’t look like we have…) then that would be a side issue, not the purpose. The lost ten tribes remain…lost. Wouldn’t you think that, if this were the PURPOSE of Temple work, we’d have had some clue by now?

Especially if, as you and Kimmie claim, we are dishonest and dishonorable? Wouldn’t we have manufactured evidence of finding one or two of those lost tribes by now? It has been considerably over a century of Temple work and genealogy, after all.

Thank you, however, for finding this reference. As I said, I would never have found it, since the article you reference simply does not support the claims that Kimmie made for it. I would have been using entirely the wrong search terms.

 

[dianaiad]

And there you have it. Someone who chose to be baptized (confirmed) has said yes to God and no to the Mormons. What right do you think you have to take that person’s name and add it to a list in your church?

If these lists mean nothing, please change your ID from LDS to Catholic, because I have baptized you by proxy.

Same rules apply to your list as apply to ours. You wait until a year after I’m dead. I get to say no thank you, and then you go right ahead and baptize me by proxy.

I don’t mind a bit.

In fact, I would be rather upset if my descendents decided that they had the right to make my decisions about my eternal life for me.

 

[dianaiad]

Those were questions: I asked…no claim

You asked me where I got that stuff.

I replied.

I have quoted you a couple of times now, Kimmie. They weren’t questions. Questions have question marks. You made definite statements and claims, including some rather insulting ones.

 

[Anna_Scott]

It is dishonest and dihonorable if it is taking dead people’s names and adding it to their roles without that person’s permission. No one gets to choose a faith for someone else - especially someone who’s dead, for crying out loud.

. . . .LDS is all about geneology, but this is about revisionist history. You can’t change the factual reality that these people said yes to God and were baptized in the Catholic Church or were Jewish, so you change the records. Calling someone baptized by proxy doesn’t make it a reality.

. . . No one is complaining that you are baptizing anyone - because you’re not. We are telling you that it is dishonest and disrespectful to change the records of people’s faith after they are dead. They made their choice, but you disregard that choice and put their names on a list that suits your own desires. (You being the LDS as a whole.)

. … . This practice is indefensible. I can’t believe that otherwise normal people would support this.

kalt:

It really will not matter what we say to the LDS forum members. They will defend their actions to baptize, marry, etc., by proxy.

If the Mormon Church cannot keep an agreement with the Jewish people, or respect the call from the Vatican to stop these baptisms by proxy; we will never be able to convince the LDS Forum Members that these rituals by proxy are dishonest, disrespectful, anti-Jewish, anti-Catholic, anti-any other religion that is not Mormon.

What greater insult or lack of respect to one’s faith exists, aside from the altering of history to deceitfully record a Jew or Christian, as a convert to Mormonism. The baptism by proxy is a desecration of the memory of the deceased, and an insult to their descendants.

Ironically, the Mormons complain that they are mistreated, and they complain about what they perceive to be anti-Mormonism, within other Religions.

We are wasting our time.

 

[kimmielittle]

I have quoted you a couple of times now, Kimmie. They weren’t questions. Questions have question marks. You made definite statements and claims, including some rather insulting ones.

Since you seem to want to take me to school…I’ll return the favor.

You answered in 147…a question post.

You can not get the correct answer IF you don’t answer the correct post.

As they say on the school grounds…"You’ve been schooled’

…

As for the post after that: Based on what your Elder says…I stand by my claims.

 

[kimmielittle]

kalt:

It really will not matter what we say to the LDS forum members. They will defend their actions to baptize, marry, etc., by proxy.

If the Mormon Church cannot keep an agreement with the Jewish people, or respect the call from the Vatican to stop these baptisms by proxy; we will never be able to convince the LDS Forum Members that these rituals by proxy are dishonest, disrespectful, anti-Jewish, anti-Catholic, anti-any other religion that is not Mormon.

What greater insult or lack of respect to one’s faith exists, aside from the altering of history to deceitfully record a Jew or Christian, as a convert to Mormonism. The baptism by proxy is a desecration of the memory of the deceased, and an insult to their descendants.

Ironically, the Mormons complain that they are mistreated, and they complain about what they perceive to be anti-Mormonism, within other Religions.

We are wasting our time.

 

[twopekinguys]

I used to be a girl scout, and I don’t remember trying to sell cookies in cemetaries.

That is probably the best statement I have heard in my entire life!!!


:clapping::clapping:
:dancing::dancing:
:extrahappy::extrahappy:

 

[dianaiad]

Well now you can easily answer to the claims because the sources have been laid out in post #175.
There is no more need to discuss whether or not these sources have to be laid open because they have been laid open in post #175.

Here is the quote that directly refers to what you just pointed out:

As prophesied by Peter and Paul, all things were to be restored in this dispensation. Therefore, there must come, as part of that restoration, the long-awaited gathering of scattered Israel. It is a necessary prelude to the Second Coming of the Lord.

Yes. He wrote this.

Would you kindly point out where he claims that we do genealogy and Temple work in order to CAUSE this? That is what Kimmie claimed, remember.

“cum hoc, ergo propter hoc” is a fallacy.

Perhaps we are talking past each other.

I saw Kimmie claim that the reason we do genealogy and Temple work is to cause the gathering of Israel, to find the lost ten tribes, and to cause an OT prophecy to happen. I have never heard that taught as the reason we do either.

…and nothing you have come up with so far indicates that anybody has claimed that the reason we do genealogy and Temple work is to CAUSE the gathering of Israel and the finding of the lost ten tribes.

We do believe that this gathering will happen in ‘this dispensation.’ We do believe that the lost ten tribes will be found…and we do believe that that prophecy that Kimmie referred to (she didn’t mention the exact one, but I suspect that it is the Malachi ‘hearts of the parents to their children and the hearts of the children to their parents’ one) is happening.

However, genealogy and Temple work is not the cause of either. Nor do we believe it to be the cause of either, and when describing our doctrine, it is what WE believe that counts.

We believe that the urge to do genealogy and Temple work is the fulfillment of that prophecy; after all, it isn’t just Mormons who are going gaga over genealogy. More people of all types are engaging in it now than ever have, and unfortunately for your claim, many, if not most, of them are NOT Mormons. Non-Mormons would have absolutely no interest in ‘making’ a prophecy come true in order to help the Mormons out.

Elder Nelson told you why we do genealogy and Temple work. That’s it. Not to find the ten tribes. Not to “make” a prophecy come true.

Now. Can you understand my position on this? What Kimmie claimed is not accurate. We do not do genealogy and Temple work for the reason she claimed we do. simple.

If you do however want more information on this topic I also have more sources from lds.org:

Got this one, and this doesn’t support the claim that we do genealogy and Temple work in order to find the ten lost tribes, either.

 

[dianaiad]

kalt:

It really will not matter what we say to the LDS forum members. They will defend their actions to baptize, marry, etc., by proxy.

If the Mormon Church cannot keep an agreement with the Jewish people, or respect the call from the Vatican to stop these baptisms by proxy; we will never be able to convince the LDS Forum Members that these rituals by proxy are dishonest, disrespectful, anti-Jewish, anti-Catholic, anti-any other religion that is not Mormon.

What greater insult or lack of respect to one’s faith exists, aside from the altering of history to deceitfully record a Jew or Christian, as a convert to Mormonism.

I’m sorry, but that is a lie.

Nothing we do 'records [anybody] as a convert to Mormonism," unless that person actually IS a convert to Mormonism. The recording of a proxy baptism does not do that. All THAT does is state that the vicarious work was done. It has nothing to do with the way that person lived his or her life, or how he or she worshipped, or what he or she wanted, or was. It is simply a note that the vicarious work was done. That’s only half of the operation; the other half, the vital one, is done by the person involved; acceptance or rejection.

WE don’t believe that these ordinances force anything upon anybody. It doesn’t make a Mormon out of a Catholic, or a Mormon out of a Jew, or a Mormon out of anybody who does not want to be one. Ever.

Unlike infant baptism, which according to those who engage in it believe has an effect on the soul whether the infant wants anything to do with it or not, and which record follows the life of that infant throughout mortality and after (whether he or she appreciates it or not), a Temple proxy baptism is ONLY effective if the person for whom it is done wants it.

Given this, I don’t think Catholics have any right to criticize us. At least when we put the baptism on record, the person for whom it is done has all the say in whether it does anything but takes up font space on a form.

The baptism by proxy is a desecration of the memory of the deceased, and an insult to their descendants.

Only if you think that’s all the deceased is; a memory, or that his or her descendents have total control over the eternal life of those who have passed before them. If you happen to believe in an actual afterlife, in which your ancestors continue to exist and have any individuality or freedom of choice, then the ‘desecration,’ if any, is yours, not ours. After all, WE believe that everybody has the right to make up their own minds about this issue. We do not assume that people become incapable of thought or decision making upon the instant of death, as you, evidently, do.

Ironically, the Mormons complain that they are mistreated, and they complain about what they perceive to be anti-Mormonism, within other Religions.

I see. We offer someone one last choice…and it IS a choice…and you equate that with, oh…what Ed Decker and the like do?

We are wasting our time.

I don’t think we will ever understand each other in this, no.

I honestly do not see the insult in this. I wouldn’t see it if it were my name on the list. I would not be insulted, or consider my ancestors/descendents insulted, if someone were to do proxy work for me in any other faith.

I might laugh at them if they claimed that what they did made me do something against my inclinations, but be insulted?

Nope.

since that is so, Since I honestly and sincerely do NOT understand where there is any insult here to any other faith, (because I honestly do not see where turning the tables would be in any way an insult to me) I guess you are wasting your time.

 

[Janet1983]

“cum hoc, ergo propter hoc” is a fallacy.

At different times and by a variety of Christian authors the Other Tribes of Israel have been identified with the Japanese, Chinese, Turks, Ethiopians, Persians, Yemenites, Nestorians, Afghans, Arabians, Britons, Kassites of Russia, Hindus and Buddhists of India, Scythians, Cimmerians, Celts, Kareens of Burma, North and South American Indians, Australians, and Eskimos. **Attempts to locate and identify the Other Tribes have been numerous. **Indeed it is possible that remnants of the Other Tribes may have spread out and became part of all these peoples in fulfillment of the prophecies that Israel would spread itself throughout many countries.
In the last days, then, the Other Tribes are to come to Zion, “upon the American continent,” there to receive blessings from Ephraim. The keys of the “gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north” were committed to the Prophet Joseph Smith by Moses on 3 April 1836 in the Kirtland Temple.
As we look toward our common future, we see that, as foretold, the great gathering, or restoration, of all the peoples of Israel who have spread themselves throughout the world will be accomplished and distinct remnants of all of the tribal units of Israel will at last be united again in fellowship under Christ.
Just as the Lord had gathered the house of Israel the first time under the leadership of Moses,** he promised to gather them a second time after their long dispersion.**
; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts” (D&C 29:7).**How can Israel be gathered if they are dispersed among all nations and have no sense of their identity? How can anyone know who Israel is? And to what do they return?**The Lord said to the Latter-day Saints, “And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect
” (quoting Bruce R. McConkie in “Strengthen the Stakes of Zion,” Ensign, July 1973, 4).The gathering of Israel consists of joining the true church; of coming to a knowledge of the true God and of his saving truths
As the seed of Abraham, all of us have the responsibility to gather both our kindred and all others who are willing to gather.Latter-day Saints thus see themselves as performing some of the concluding scenes of an anciently prophesied plan that was put into motion thousands of years ago.
As prophesied by Peter and Paul, all things were to be restored in this dispensation. Therefore, there must come, as part of that restoration, the long-awaited gathering of scattered Israel.** It is a necessary prelude to the Second Coming of the Lord.**

Ergo: There are numerous attempts that have been made to localize the tribes and they have spread throughout the nations. The keys for their gathering have been committed to J.S. by Moses. The Lord promised to gather the tribes again, but the tribes do not realize who they are. The LDS are commissioned to bring the tribes together.
The gathering of Israel / the tribes consists of joining the “true church” and are some of the concluding scenes of an ancient prophecy.
This is necessary for the second coming of the Lord…

This would sum the main point up that are written in above passages wouldn’t it?
Dispersion - Commission - Gathering through the church - 2nd coming

 

[dianaiad]

Since you seem to want to take me to school…I’ll return the favor.

You answered in 147…a question post.

You can not get the correct answer IF you don’t answer the correct post.

As they say on the school grounds…"You’ve been schooled’

…

Kimmie.

In post # 136 you write:

So all this is done in the name of genealogy?

An innocent sounding project…BUT

Doesn’t the real reason go to;… the teachings of LDS to "bind’ and ‘gather’ the 12 Tribes?

In post #243, you wrote:

"Their teachings teach that by ‘binding’ and ‘gathering’ The Twelve Tribes Of Israel…It will cause a Biblical prophesy to occur.

They are trying to count everyone on earth AND “bind’ “gather” them to LDS to account for the Ten Lost Tribes.”

In post # 147, after having read your post #136 AND 143, I wrote, quoting one and referring to the other:

WHERE do you get this stuff?

You then responded with the back stepping, trying to avoid giving me the reference, claiming that I had to go find it and prove your point for you. After your insults and inaccurate presentation of my beliefs, I found it a little odd to be told that because I asked you for the reference, I was the stupid and unreasonable one.

It irritated me considerably. Now, since you seem to have made your age an issue in this matter, (“I found it, and I’m a kid!” you wrote in post #166) I think I’m within my rights to ask you how old you are, or what grade or level of school you are in. It will help me decide just how to react to you.

As for the post after that: Based on what your Elder says…I stand by my claims.

You can if you want to, of course. You’d be completely wrong, and look rather silly, but that’s entirely up to you.

We do not do genealogy and Temple work for the reasons you claim we do, and Elder Russel’s article doesn’t support your claims. If your goal is to get Mormons to leave, your claiming that we do genealogy and Temple work in order to make an OT prophecy come true and in order to find the lost ten tribes (or 'gather Israel) is going to get you laughed right out of the arena. It’s like claiming that people build windmills in order to get the wind to blow.

If your goal is to keep other people from joining, then it’s also a dumb thing to say. Why? Because when they find out you are out to lunch on that one, they are going to start wondering what ELSE you are wrong about, and start looking closer.

We get more converts that way…

Nope, Kimmie…it’s always a good idea to find out what the truth is about beliefs, and then disagree with THAT. Building strawmen to disagree with only gets you itchy.

 

[dianaiad]

**Attempts to locate and identify the Other Tribes have been numerous. **At different times and by a variety of Christian authors the Other Tribes of Israel have been identified with the Japanese, Chinese, Turks, Ethiopians, Persians, Yemenites, Nestorians, Afghans, Arabians, Britons, Kassites of Russia, Hindus and Buddhists of India, Scythians, Cimmerians, Celts, Kareens of Burma, North and South American Indians, Australians, and Eskimos. Indeed it is possible that remnants of the Other Tribes may have spread out and became part of all these peoples in fulfillment of the prophecies that Israel would spread itself throughout many countries.
In the last days, then, the Other Tribes are to come to Zion, “upon the American continent,” there to receive blessings from Ephraim. The keys of the “gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north” were committed to the Prophet Joseph Smith by Moses on 3 April 1836 in the Kirtland Temple.
As we look toward our common future, we see that, as foretold, the great gathering, or restoration, of all the peoples of Israel who have spread themselves throughout the world will be accomplished and distinct remnants of all of the tribal units of Israel will at last be united again in fellowship under Christ.
Just as the Lord had gathered the house of Israel the first time under the leadership of Moses,** he promised to gather them a second time after their long dispersion.**
How can Israel be gathered if they are dispersed among all nations and have no sense of their identity? How can anyone know who Israel is? And to what do they return? Modern scriptures provide the answers. The Lord said to the Latter-day Saints, “And ye are called to bring to pass the gathering of mine elect; for mine elect hear my voice and harden not their hearts” (D&C 29:7).
In 1836 Moses appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith in the Kirtland Temple to restore the keys for the “gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north” (D&C 110:11). President Harold B. Lee explained the nature of the gathering in the last days: “The gathering of Israel consists of joining the true church; of coming to a knowledge of the true God and of his saving truths” (quoting Bruce R. McConkie in “Strengthen the Stakes of Zion,” Ensign, July 1973, 4).
In 1834 the Lord emphasized through the Prophet Joseph Smith that the Latter-day Saints “are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham” (D&C 103:17)… The assignment is inherent with their receiving gospel covenants. Latter-day Saints thus see themselves as performing some of the concluding scenes of an anciently prophesied plan that was put into motion thousands of years ago. As the seed of Abraham, all of us have the responsibility to gather both our kindred and all others who are willing to gather.
As prophesied by Peter and Paul, all things were to be restored in this dispensation. Therefore, there must come, as part of that restoration, the long-awaited gathering of scattered Israel.** It is a necessary prelude to the Second Coming of the Lord.**

Ergo: There are numerous attempts that have been made to localize the tribes and they have spread throughout the nations. The keys for their gathering have been committed to J.S. by Moses. The Lord promised to gather the tribes again, but the tribes do not realize who they are. The LDS are commissioned to bring the tribes together.
The gathering of Israel / the tribes consists of joining the “true church” and are some of the concluding scenes of an ancient prophecy.
This is necessary for the second coming of the Lord…

This would sum the main point up that are written in above passages wouldn’t it?
Dispersion - Commission - Gathering through the church - 2nd coming

BUT NONE OF THAT SUPPORTS KIMMIES CLAIM THAT THIS IS THE REASON WE DO GENEALOGY AND TEMPLE WORK!!!

That’s what I mean by “cum hoc, ergo propter hoc” being a fallacy. Simply because something occurs at the same time as something else, it does NOT mean that it CAUSES that something else.

Genealogy and Temple work are a part of this 'gathering…" even part of the RESULT of it, but that’s not the reason we DO it.

Nor does anything you have quoted here, or that Kimmie quoted, supports that.

 

[Janet1983]

What greater insult or lack of respect to one’s faith exists, aside from the altering of history to deceitfully record a Jew or Christian, as a convert to Mormonism. The baptism by proxy is a desecration of the memory of the deceased, and an insult to their descendants.

This is simply not true… You see me debating the LDS members as much as you do, but this is not factual.
On the sheets of the Family Group Record (that is what this information sheet is called) all important dates are being inserted.
Here is a link to the one that is generally used: LINK to Family Group Record

Here would be an example of the contents:
(this data is a figment of my imagination, but it could happen and be written down this way)
Family Group Record
Husband

Given name(s): James Robert; Last name: Smith
Born: 03 Jan 1879; Place: Lancaster, CA
Christened: 04 Jan 1879; Place: Sacred Heart Catholic Church, Lancaster, CA
Died: 19 Apr 1964; Place: Lancaster, CA
Buried: 25 Apr 1964; Place: Good Shepherd Catholic Cemetery, Lancaster, CA
Married: 10 May 1899; Place: Sacred Heart Catholic Church, Lancaster, CA

LDS ordinances:
Baptized: 03 Jan 1986; Temple: Los Angeles
Endowment: 03 Sep 1987; ; Temple: Los Angeles
Sealed to Parents: 10 Jun 1991; Temple: Los Angeles
Sealed to Spouse: 14 Aug 1994; Temple: Los Angeles

Husbands Father given name(s): John Michael; Last name: Smith
Husband’s Mother given name(s): Mary Ann; Last name: Miller

Same information goes for his spouse… With the information given one can conclude that James Robert Smith, son of John Michael Smith and Mary Ann Smith nee Miller was a Catholic all his life from the day he was born till the day he passed away. Due to the information presented there is no question about this. The LDS ordinances were obviously given postmortem and there is therefore no reasonable way to claim that he was LDS during his lifetime.
Because of this it is just not factually correct to accuse LDS members who collect information and apply their ordinances of deceitfully trying to change history.

 

[kimmielittle]

BUT NONE OF THAT SUPPORTS KIMMIES CLAIM THAT THIS IS THE REASON WE DO GENEALOGY AND TEMPLE WORK!!!

That’s what I mean by “cum hoc, ergo propter hoc” being a fallacy. Simply because something occurs at the same time as something else, it does NOT mean that it CAUSES that something else.

Genealogy and Temple work are a part of this 'gathering…" even part of the RESULT of it, but that’s not the reason we DO it.

Nor does anything you have quoted here, or that Kimmie quoted, supports that.

Maybe, you could get the Good Elder to explain what he meant…seeing it’s HIS words…ohhhhh wait…I think hes dead.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m sorry, but that is a lie.

Nothing we do 'records [anybody] as a convert to Mormonism," unless that person actually IS a convert to Mormonism. The recording of a proxy baptism does not do that. All THAT does is state that the vicarious work was done. It has nothing to do with the way that person lived his or her life, or how he or she worshipped, or what he or she wanted, or was. It is simply a note that the vicarious work was done. That’s only half of the operation; the other half, the vital one, is done by the person involved; acceptance or rejection.

WE don’t believe that these ordinances force anything upon anybody. It doesn’t make a Mormon out of a Catholic, or a Mormon out of a Jew, or a Mormon out of anybody who does not want to be one. Ever.

Unlike infant baptism, which according to those who engage in it believe has an effect on the soul whether the infant wants anything to do with it or not, and which record follows the life of that infant throughout mortality and after (whether he or she appreciates it or not), a Temple proxy baptism is ONLY effective if the person for whom it is done wants it.

Given this, I don’t think Catholics have any right to criticize us. At least when we put the baptism on record, the person for whom it is done has all the say in whether it does anything but takes up font space on a form.

Only if you think that’s all the deceased is; a memory, or that his or her descendents have total control over the eternal life of those who have passed before them. If you happen to believe in an actual afterlife, in which your ancestors continue to exist and have any individuality or freedom of choice, then the ‘desecration,’ if any, is yours, not ours. After all, WE believe that everybody has the right to make up their own minds about this issue. We do not assume that people become incapable of thought or decision making upon the instant of death, as you, evidently, do.

I see. We offer someone one last choice…and it IS a choice…and you equate that with, oh…what Ed Decker and the like do?

I don’t think we will ever understand each other in this, no.

I honestly do not see the insult in this. I wouldn’t see it if it were my name on the list. I would not be insulted, or consider my ancestors/descendents insulted, if someone were to do proxy work for me in any other faith.

I might laugh at them if they claimed that what they did made me do something against my inclinations, but be insulted?

Nope.

since that is so, Since I honestly and sincerely do NOT understand where there is any insult here to any other faith, (because I honestly do not see where turning the tables would be in any way an insult to me) I guess you are wasting your time.

dianaiad:

Your statement, “I honestly do not see the insult in this,” is precisely the problem.

Jews and Christians are telling the Mormon Church–every way possible–how insulting, disrespectful, and deceitful these by-proxy, rituals really are.

This quote from the following article articulates the insult to the Jewish people, "Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers."

Yet, you continue to ignore; you continue to disrespect; you continue these rituals.

Add the relentless Mormon rituals to the fact that you consider all of Christianity to be “Apostate,” and you have a full circle of discrimination and persecution of both Jews and Christians. Yet, Mormons complain that they are “persecuted.” Please have some respect for those outside your religion.

This is all I have to say on the subject.

It is truly a waste of time to continue—as the Mormon church will surely do as it wishes, regardless of those whom the Mormon church has injured and offended.

haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1036093.html

Last update - 00:00 10/11/2008
U.S. Jewish group to Mormons: Stop baptizing Holocaust victims
By Associated Press
Tags: Holocaust, Mormons

Only the Jews have an agreement with the church limiting who can be baptized, though the agreement covers only Holocaust victims, not all Jewish people.** Jews are particularly offended by baptisms of Holocaust victims because they were murdered specifically because of their religion.**
**
Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers.

“They tell me, that my parents’ Jewishness has not been altered but?100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?” Michel said Monday.**

 

[Janet1983]

BUT NONE OF THAT SUPPORTS KIMMIES CLAIM THAT THIS IS THE REASON WE DO GENEALOGY AND TEMPLE WORK!!!

That’s what I mean by “cum hoc, ergo propter hoc” being a fallacy. Simply because something occurs at the same time as something else, it does NOT mean that it CAUSES that something else.

Genealogy and Temple work are a part of this 'gathering…" even part of the RESULT of it, but that’s not the reason we DO it.

Nor does anything you have quoted here, or that Kimmie quoted, supports that.

Calm it… I am of the opinion that this is part of the reason. The other one is of course that “families are forever” but I’m sure you know that better than I do.
I am actually trying to find the truth… Come on, if you look down a few posts you’ll see how I vigorously try do defend you against people who try to accuse you of deceit.
I actually do not see any problem in a belief of trying to gather the “lost tribes” by gathering them into the church… and I do not see any problem in trying to keep the family together.
From my perspective it does not harm anybody if you have a paper stating that someone was endowed or sealed to someone else years after he passed away.
I do not agree with these beliefs, but I do not see how this could make you so upset.