LDS Baptizes and Seals St. Damien to a "wife"

[ParkerD]

Jay,
I didn’t answer your long post because it was more than I had time for and I had already answered all of the questions in the course of this thread. Mostly what you would need to understand very precisely is that authority counts in heaven, meaning the priesthood authorized among men to be used in ordinances of the gospel in the name of God. Ordinances done without completely authorized sanction by God would be well-intended by the person, but not valid for the purpose designed by God for the ordinance.

As to these quotes:

Quote:
Quote:
“I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.” (JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844)

Quote:
"Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead. . " (JD 6:4, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844)

I don’t think they are misquoted. From other quotes in that “King Follett Sermon”, the teaching that God the Father was once a man who lived on an earth just like Jesus Christ did on this earth is quite plain. I think it is also quite plain that He lived a perfect life just like Jesus Christ did. It is also plainly taught in the Bible that humankind have the capacity to become like God through the merits and atoning grace of Jesus Christ, and thus be “joint-heirs” with Him on a “joint throne”, and be made perfect in Christ.

 

[Jay53]

I don’t think they are misquoted. From other quotes in that “King Follett Sermon”, the teaching that God the Father was once a man who lived on an earth just like Jesus Christ did on this earth is quite plain. I think it is also quite plain that He lived a perfect life just like Jesus Christ did. It is also plainly taught in the Bible that humankind have the capacity to become like God through the merits and atoning grace of Jesus Christ, and thus be “joint-heirs” with Him on a “joint throne”, and be made perfect in Christ.

Can you show me where anyone, before Joseph Smith and the Mormons, believed this and interpreted scripture in this way?

I don’t think I have ever heard these interpretations before - particularly that we can become gods ourselves. I seriously had no idea LDS members believed this, but I’m sure that is just part of my upbringing and the fact that I have very little contact with Mormons.

Do LDS members study or use any quotations from the Early Church Fathers?

 

[Anna_Scott]

ParkerD:

This is not a case of “selective memory.” The “Mormon” experience will forever be etched in my memory. It was all the more painful, because the Mormon Bishop and his wife were neighbors and personal friends.

As I said yesterday, I called Member Records Division, LDS Church. I told the guy in the Records Division, I am aware that baptisms and other rites are performed by proxy. I told him I did not want any done in my name. He told me this would not be done, "while you are still living."

So, it’s still not over. Now I have to write a letter to the Member Records Division, of the LDS Church, stating no proxy baptism or any other rites are to be performed for me, now or after my death. And, even when I send the letter, there is no guarantee proxy work will not be done, in spite of my wishes.

You stating, “I didn’t believe the story either time I read it;” is just one more assault from the LDS church.

I just want it to be over.

Anna

Anna,
I have no idea what you have been told by other members, but my understanding is that a baptized person such as yourself (in the LDS church at some point in your life) would certainly not have a “baptism for the dead” ordinance done ever for them, nor other temple ordinances unless some descendant of yours does the research about you and thinks they should have your other ordinance work done. If you will make it clear to your descendants that you made a knowledgeable decision and understood exactly what you were doing and want them not to submit for any of those ordinances to be done for you, then if I were one of them I would take your word for it and leave things be. But I of course can’t speak for them.

ParkerD:
It’s not what other members have told me that is the cause for my concern. It is the conversation with the Member Records Division, of the LDS Church, that has me concerned. (See my previous post above.)

I told the Records Division I did not want any proxy rites performed in my name. I was told this would not be done, and I quote: "while you are still living."

I told him I do not want any rites performed using my name, after my death; and that I would send a letter stating my wishes. He gave me no assurances whatsoever that my wishes would be honored.

If the LDS Church believes they have the right to perform proxy rites, after my death—knowing, in life, I resigned from the Mormon Church; what is to stop them from using my name anyway, after I am deceased—despite my wishes? They have my name in the system already.

This is a very disturbing situation. How could you possibly defend this?

Anna

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD:
It’s not what other members have told me that is the cause for my concern. It is the conversation with the Member Records Division, of the LDS Church, that has me concerned. (See my previous post above.)

I told the Records Division I did not want any proxy rites performed in my name. I was told this would not be done, and I quote: "while you are still living."

I told him I do not want any rites performed using my name, after my death; and that I would send a letter stating my wishes. He gave me no assurances whatsoever that my wishes would be honored.

If the LDS Church believes they have the right to perform proxy rites, after my death—knowing, in life, I resigned from the Mormon Church; what is to stop them from using my name anyway, after I am deceased—despite my wishes? They have my name in the system already.

This is a very disturbing situation. How could you possibly defend this?

Anna

Anna,
I guess I had misunderstood if what you were saying is that you told someone in the Member Record Division that you had been a baptized member. I think perhaps they misunderstood you. I think they would have responded in a similar way to what I posted about your descendants. Wouldn’t that be a good thing to communicate your wishes to them, and let them know of your love for them and your strong feelings about this issue? They could feel your sincerity, your love for them, and that you really had full knowledge of what you are doing.

If you think your name is going to come up automatically on some list at some point for ordinances, I just don’t think that is ever going to happen. There is no system that is set up to do that, nor do I think one will ever be set up to do that. The families do the research, especially in a case like yours.

 

[ParkerD]

Can you show me where anyone, before Joseph Smith and the Mormons, believed this and interpreted scripture in this way?

I don’t think I have ever heard these interpretations before - particularly that we can become gods ourselves. I seriously had no idea LDS members believed this, but I’m sure that is just part of my upbringing and the fact that I have very little contact with Mormons.

Do LDS members study or use any quotations from the Early Church Fathers?

Jay,
We think Abraham had that knowledge, but that what he wrote as scripture was lost from the common records passed on by the Jews.

You would want to re-read all of the verses in the book of Revelation where the words “he that overcometh” are used, since each of them specify promises that relate to becoming like Jesus Christ. John always uses the phrase after those passages, “he that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” Conversely, he that doesn’t have “ears to hear”, won’t “hear”–meaning they won’t understand even though the words are plainly written.

To look up all those verses quickly, you could go to lds.org and pull up Scriptures online and type in the phrase and the search would find all the passages with that phrase. It would be the King James Version of the Bible online that was being “searched”.

As far as “Early Church Fathers,” I can’t speak for anyone but myself and I have read a couple of things on this website but that’s all. I think what John wrote and what Christ taught take much more significant precedent than anything any subsequent writer attempted to tell about what Christ and the apostles taught (or what they were told by others who said what they themselves understood to have been taught in the original church). In other words, go to the source. The source is the Bible, coupled with inspiration from the Holy Spirit that you yourself can receive.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Can you show me where anyone, before Joseph Smith and the Mormons, believed this and interpreted scripture in this way?

I don’t think I have ever heard these interpretations before - particularly that we can become gods ourselves. I seriously had no idea LDS members believed this, but I’m sure that is just part of my upbringing and the fact that I have very little contact with Mormons.

Do LDS members study or use any quotations from the Early Church Fathers?

Jay53:

In the LDS Journal of Discourses (JD) 6:3-4, April 6, 1844, The Mormon founder and first Prophet Joseph Smith stated the following:

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man. . .”

“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea. . .”

"Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead. . "

The Mormon picture of salvation is very different from that of Christianity.

Journal of Discourses Volume 1:50-51, April 9, 1852
Mormon Prophet, Brighan Young, proclaimed that Adam is “MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken–HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do.”

So, the Mormon God is Adam. Adam is not the God of Christianity.

Journal of Discourses Volume 1:50-51, April 9, 1852, the Mormon Prophet, Brigham Young also proclaimed regarding Jesus, “He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family.”

So in Mormonism, Jesus is the son of Adam.

More than 20 years later, in 1873: The Desert News, Discourse, By President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, June 8th, 1873.) Brigham Young proclaimed, again:

Adam is God.
God revealed this to him.
He learned this from Joseph Smith: “But I could not find any man on the earth who could tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith.”

Brigham Young also proclaimed,
“Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth.”

ParkerD: you said you did not believe my story of being baptized into the Mormon church, only to leave after finding out what the true Mormon beliefs are. The proof of Mormonism is in Mormon sources. Everything I have quoted here is from Mormon sources.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . . …It didn’t end there; members of the church kept calling me and showing up at my door. I kept telling them I was not coming back to the church and to please stop contacting me.

It still didn’t stop. I received phone calls. I received things in the mail-which I marked “return to sender” and left for the Postman. Then, I started receiving things in the mail with no return address-a clear attempt to get me to open the package.

I finally had to write a formal letter to the church–telling them I wanted my name removed from their records, and would consider any further contact harassment—(though I had been harassed, since the moment I told them I was not coming back.)

I recently found some websites that give guidance and sample letters for those who wish to leave the LDS Church. One letter included a statement, “The LDS church shall NOT use my name in baptismal (or other) ordinances for the dead.”

**Today, I called the Member Records Division, LDS Church, 1-800-453-3860, x22053. Brother ??? (refused to give his name) looked up my name and said they received my letter of resignation, and it was processed in May 1997.

I asked Brother ??? if he would send me a copy of my letter of resignation. He refused, saying my letter is now “property of the church.”

I asked him how my name appeared in LDS baptismal records, or any other rites performed for me. He said he was not allowed to give me that information.

I told him I am aware that baptisms and other rites are performed by proxy. He told me this would not be done,** “while you are still living.”**** I told him I did not want rites performed by proxy after my death; and that I would send a letter stating the same. He was silent on the issue.

So, even though I clearly rejected Mormonism in life, my name would still be there for the LDS church to use as they see fit, once I am deceased. This is so disturbing. The disrespect is astounding. IMHO, this is a violation of religious freedom in our great country.

I am working on my letter to forbid any LDS proxy work, on by behalf, after my death.

Anna,
I didn’'t believe the story either time I read it. I still don’t. It just does not match the reality of what happens in LDS ward meetings nor what a child would say about their beliefs.

Anna,
I guess I had misunderstood if what you were saying is that you told someone in the Member Record Division that you had been a baptized member. I think perhaps they misunderstood you. I think they would have responded in a similar way to what I posted about your descendants. Wouldn’t that be a good thing to communicate your wishes to them, and let them know of your love for them and your strong feelings about this issue? They could feel your sincerity, your love for them, and that you really had full knowledge of what you are doing.

If you think your name is going to come up automatically on some list at some point for ordinances, I just don’t think that is ever going to happen. There is no system that is set up to do that, nor do I think one will ever be set up to do that. The families do the research, especially in a case like yours.

The Mormon Church knows exactly what my wishes are. See my post above.

Anna

 

[ParkerD]

Anna,
I understand your sincerity about leaving the LDS church, and that is fine. What I had disagreed with was the assertion that the name of Jesus Christ was “rarely” mentioned in the meetings you attended. I think we covered that issue pretty well, so I hope you will forgive me for having led you to believe at any point that I was accusing you of something that I was not accusing you of. If you will do that, then we can both forget about that particular exchange and I am fine with your attempts to show people what you have “found out,” since you have given good source documentation and that is helpful. Peace to you, sincerely, and to your family.

PS. Now I’ve read your other post. I think we just aren’t communicating. The church doesn’t institutionally do the submittals for temple ordinance work. They don’t do the names again of people who left the church. What you have described is a non-issue as regards any ordinance work in your name, unless your descendants do it.

 

[twopekinguys]

Anna,
I have no idea what you have been told by other members, but my understanding is that a baptized person such as yourself (in the LDS church at some point in your life) would certainly not have a “baptism for the dead” ordinance done ever for them, nor other temple ordinances unless some descendant of yours does the research about you and thinks they should have your other ordinance work done. If you will make it clear to your descendants that you made a knowledgeable decision and understood exactly what you were doing and want them not to submit for any of those ordinances to be done for you, then if I were one of them I would take your word for it and leave things be. But I of course can’t speak for them.

But by your own admission. After her kids are gone, any other family member can step in and have them done.

Remember our discussion earlier?

 

[ParkerD]

But by your own admission. After her kids are gone, any other family member can step in and have them done.

Remember our discussion earlier?

Yes, I suppose they could, but I don’t think they would if she will communicate with the family members and let them know to put her on a “do not do any ordinance work” list, if she thinks any of them would ever perchance join the LDS church.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,
I understand your sincerity about leaving the LDS church, and that is fine. What I had disagreed with was the assertion that the name of Jesus Christ was “rarely” mentioned in the meetings you attended. I think we covered that issue pretty well, so I hope you will forgive me for having led you to believe at any point that I was accusing you of something that I was not accusing you of. If you will do that, then we can both forget about that particular exchange and I am fine with your attempts to show people what you have “found out,” since you have given good source documentation and that is helpful. Peace to you, sincerely, and to your family.

PS. Now I’ve read your other post. I think we just aren’t communicating. The church doesn’t institutionally do the submittals for temple ordinance work. They don’t do the names again of people who left the church. What you have described is a non-issue as regards any ordinance work in your name, unless your descendants do it.

ParkerD:

**Red flags: **

1. The guy at Member Records Division refused to give his name;
2. and refused to give me any information regarding how my name appeared in LDS baptismal records, or any other rites performed for me;
3. and refused to send me a copy of my resignation letter, stating it is now “property of the church.”
4. The only assurance he gave me, regarding whether any proxy rites would be performed in my name, was that none would be done—and I quote, “while you are still living.” That tells me my name is theirs after I die, and he would not deny that.
5. I told him I did not want any rites performed by proxy, before or after my death, and that I would send him a letter regarding my wishes. He was silent on the issue. He gave me no assurances.

ParkerD:

I’m not trying to be difficult.

It should not be this difficult to resign from a church. There are laws that protect our religious rights in life. It seems we are fair game, after death.

My experiences with the Mormon Church were very traumatic. I really want it to be over. I want to know, with certainty, that my name will not be used in proxy rites after my death. I don’t think that is an unreasonable thing to ask.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

But by your own admission. After her kids are gone, any other family member can step in and have them done.

Remember our discussion earlier?

Yes, I suppose they could, but I don’t think they would if she will communicate with the family members and let them know to put her on a “do not do any ordinance work” list, if she thinks any of them would ever perchance join the LDS church.

ParkerD:

Does this mean, even if I send a letter to the LDS Records Division, clearly stating that no ordinance work is to be done, after my death; my descendants could override my wishes?

Anna

 

[twopekinguys]

Yes, I suppose they could, but I don’t think they would if she will communicate with the family members and let them know to put her on a “do not do any ordinance work” list, if she thinks any of them would ever perchance join the LDS church.

But if you look a Z’s answers to this very issue, his stance is basically, I’ll do it if I want, and you can’t stop me.

Doesn’t seem like much consitency there, and I think that is something else that bugs people about this.

My one cousin, who is an inactive mormon, has been told in no uncertain terms that if she ever submitted a family member for proxy work, there wouldn’t be enough of her left to go to the spirit world.

Now, here is the thing about her. Yes, she is inactive, and her daughter resigned. They are the only two in our entire family, and yes, I mean entire family We have the research that goes back well before mormonism began, so all we have to do is out live her, and our family should be home free. Unless of course some rogue mormon hits our family like they did St. Damien.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD:

Does this mean, even if I send a letter to the LDS Records Division, clearly stating that no ordinance work is to be done, after my death; my descendants could override my wishes?

Anna

Anna,
I don’t have any particular inside information regarding the Records Division, but I am familiar enough with name submissions for temple work that I think that if a relative of yours tries to do other ordinance work besides your baptism and confirmation, I doubt that a system block would block the name from clearing, but I may be wrong and there may be a new mechanism in place that I’m not aware of.

I would think you would want your extended family and their descendants to know of your strong feelings, and especially that you have made a knowledgeable choice and there is no chance of your ever changing your mind.

But you can send a letter as you have described and hope that a system block will be put in place at some point and be effective for your particular case, if any distant relative did happen to want to do your other ordinance work years and years down the road.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,
I don’t have any particular inside information regarding the Records Division, but I am familiar enough with name submissions for temple work that I think that if a relative of yours tries to do other ordinance work besides your baptism and confirmation, I doubt that a system block would block the name from clearing, but I may be wrong and there may be a new mechanism in place that I’m not aware of.

I would think you would want your extended family and their descendants to know of your strong feelings, and especially that you have made a knowledgeable choice and there is no chance of your ever changing your mind.

But you can send a letter as you have described and hope that a system block will be put in place at some point and be effective for your particular case, if any distant relative did happen to want to do your other ordinance work years and years down the road.

Thank you, ParkerD:

I appreciate your patience and willingness to help me. I will write a letter to the Records Division and attached a copy to my Last Will & Testament. I suppose that is all I can do.

I want to get this settled. I do not want to harbor any ill feelings toward the Mormon Church, regardless of what I experienced.

In Christ,
Anna

 

[twopekinguys]

ParkerD:

**Red flags: **

1. The guy at Member Records Division refused to give his name;
2. and refused to give me any information regarding how my name appeared in LDS baptismal records, or any other rites performed for me;
3. and refused to send me a copy of my resignation letter, stating it is now “property of the church.”
4. The only assurance he gave me, regarding whether any proxy rites would be performed in my name, was that none would be done—and I quote, “while you are still living.” That tells me my name is theirs after I die, and he would not deny that.
5. I told him I did not want any rites performed by proxy, before or after my death, and that I would send him a letter regarding my wishes. He was silent on the issue. He gave me no assurances.

ParkerD:

I’m not trying to be difficult.

It should not be this difficult to resign from a church. There are laws that protect our religious rights in life. It seems we are fair game, after death.

My experiences with the Mormon Church were very traumatic. I really want it to be over. I want to know, with certainty, that my name will not be used in proxy rites after my death. I don’t think that is an unreasonable thing to ask.

Anna

Anna, I think you know that I am not on board with the whole proxy ordinance thing. But…(you knew that was coming right )

In all fairness, If you submitted a letter of resignation to the lds, you should have kept a copy, and he is correct that the letter is their property.

At this point, I would document that you spoke with someone in that department who wouldn’t identify themselves, and they confirmed the letter was received and processed.

Also, since you resigned, you would be considered a member of the general public, and not a member of their church. Therefore, they wouldn’t legally be obligated to disclose the information as far as baptism, etc. The same would apply to any other church, including the Catholic church. I can’t tell you how many times I have had to tell people that I couldn’t release some of that information.

If we think about this, there has to be some sort of record of you there, even if it is only your letter of resignation. Your name will always be on file there in some sense, even if it is only your letter of resignation. There just isn’t any way around that.

As far as the guy not giving his name, now that is poor business etiquette, no matter how you look at it. Also, if he went silent on the issue you mentioned, I would imagine you either caught him off guard and he wasn’t prepared for an answer, or he is of the same mindset as Zerinus. (we’ll do it if we want) Another option would have been to ask for his supervisor/superior, and asked for his/her name so you could address the letter to them personally.

I’m sure that you can tell from Parker’s responses versus some of the other mormons on here, there isn’t really a unified position. Some think it won’t happen, while others say they’ll do it no matter what.

Trust me, I don’t want them done for me or my family members any more than you do. But when it comes to the records, fair is fair. I know it is a very emotionally charged thing, but sometimes we have to take emotions out of the equation.

God Bless.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, I think you know that I am not on board with the whole proxy ordinance thing. But…(you knew that was coming right )

In all fairness, If you submitted a letter of resignation to the lds, you should have kept a copy, and he is correct that the letter is their property.

At this point, I would document that you spoke with someone in that department who wouldn’t identify themselves, and they confirmed the letter was received and processed.

Also, since you resigned, you would be considered a member of the general public, and not a member of their church. Therefore, they wouldn’t legally be obligated to disclose the information as far as baptism, etc. The same would apply to any other church, including the Catholic church. I can’t tell you how many times I have had to tell people that I couldn’t release some of that information.

If we think about this, there has to be some sort of record of you there, even if it is only your letter of resignation. Your name will always be on file there in some sense, even if it is only your letter of resignation. There just isn’t any way around that.

As far as the guy not giving his name, now that is poor business etiquette, no matter how you look at it. Also, if he went silent on the issue you mentioned, I would imagine you either caught him off guard and he wasn’t prepared for an answer, or he is of the same mindset as Zerinus. (we’ll do it if we want) Another option would have been to ask for his supervisor/superior, and asked for his/her name so you could address the letter to them personally.

I’m sure that you can tell from Parker’s responses versus some of the other mormons on here, there isn’t really a unified position. Some think it won’t happen, while others say they’ll do it no matter what.

Trust me, I don’t want them done for me or my family members any more than you do. But when it comes to the records, fair is fair. I know it is a very emotionally charged thing, but sometimes we have to take emotions out of the equation.

God Bless.

twopekinguys:

You made some very good points. And I think you are probably right about the issue of a copy of the letter and the records.

You hit the nail on the head, when you said to take the emotions out of it. That has been difficult. I felt deceived by my Mormon friends, and I felt foolish for allowing myself to join in the first place-very out-of-character for me.

Then, it was so hard to leave. They kept calling and showing up at my door and sending me things in the mail.

So, now 12 years later, I find they could still do proxy work after I die, knowing my choice to reject Mormonism in life.

I do think it has helped to express my feelings about this on the Forums.

I appreciate those who have given helpful suggestions and words of support–you “two” included.

Thanks,
Anna

 

[twopekinguys]

twopekinguys:

You made some very good points. And I think you are probably right about the issue of a copy of the letter and the records.

You hit the nail on the head, when you said to take the emotions out of it. That has been difficult. I felt deceived by my Mormon friends, and I felt foolish for allowing myself to join in the first place-very out-of-character for me.

Then, it was so hard to leave. They kept calling and showing up at my door and sending me things in the mail.

So, now 12 years later, I find they could still do proxy work after I die, knowing my choice to reject Mormonism in life.

I do think it has helped to express my feelings about this on the Forums.

I appreciate those who have given helpful suggestions and words of support–you “two” included.

Thanks,

Anna

It’s all good.

I know how hard it is to convert from one religion to another, and it does wear your emotions thin when people won’t respect your decision.

Being Irish, I have to count to 10 alot of times before I comment or say something…lol

Just remember, breathe in through your nose, and out through your mouth, count to 10, and go from there.

 

[Anna_Scott]

It’s all good.

I know how hard it is to convert from one religion to another, and it does wear your emotions thin when people won’t respect your decision.

Being Irish, I have to count to 10 alot of times before I comment or say something…lol

Just remember, breathe in through your nose, and out through your mouth, count to 10, and go from there.

You are “two” funny. lol I think the “count to 10 rule” could help in many situations.

How do I know which one of you I am talking to?

Anna

 

[twopekinguys]

You are “two” funny. lol I think the “count to 10 rule” could help in many situations.

How do I know which one of you I am talking to?

Anna

Actually, you’ve been talking to both of us. (no, it isn’t a medication issue

Both of us share the same view on this issue, as well as many others that have been discussed on here.