LDS Baptizes and Seals St. Damien to a "wife"

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It makes me wonder what instructions that actually received from their church leaders.

It is amazing that Mormon forum members are calling the Mormon baptism and marriage, by proxy, of St. Damien, an accident.

Anna
Yeah, somebody **accidently **logged into the Temple Ready system, and **accidently **entered all the information, and he was **accidently **baptized posthumously, and an accidentlysealed to a fictious wife. Which I’m sure was an **accident **also.

Not to mention that all of this information **accidently **slipped passed their filtering systems.

Anyone besides me detecting a trend here?
 
TempleReady is a computer program that helps you prepare family names for temple ordinances.Because someone else could have performed ordinances for some of your ancestors, theTempleReady program checks the Ordinance Index to see if any of the ordinances you arerequesting have been completed. After going through TempleReady and then doing the templework, the individuals will become part of the International Genealogical Index on familysearch.org,the Church’s official temple index.

This makes it seem that anyone that is listed on familysearch.org has had some sort of temple work done. Notice, this is from BYU.

74.125.95.132/u/BYU?q=cache:7dNrS4DaY_IJ:261.byu.edu/pdf/lesson7.pdf+temple+ready&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&ie=UTF-8
 
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) believe that only they have the authority to validly baptize (or perform any other sacraments, which they call ‘ordinances’). Therefore, all converts, whether or not they were baptized before, are baptized. Related to this, they also believe that they can perform these ordinances for those who have died, by proxy (meaning that a living person stands in for the dead person). This allows the dead person to have a chance to hear the LDS gospel, and choose whether or not to accept it. Therefore, a dead person can be baptized, confirmed, be ordained to their priesthood, be sealed (eternally married), and receive their endowment, all by proxy. These rituals are done in their temples, which are only open to certain members that have been interviewed and are determined to be living to a certain standard (though this standard is different and less for those that simply want to baptize for the dead, and not receive rituals like the endowment or eternal marriage for themselves).
I’ve heard that you can refuse the baptism after death if you don’t want it, but the Church would still record that they did it, because how can a dead person communicate with the Church and say “no I don’t want your baptism - take me off your records”?:confused:
 
No it is not relativism. You completely missed my point. If someone believes I am headed for Hell, I would expect him to try and convert me.

And I stand by that baptizing for this Saint did no harm. It’s not like it sent St. Damien to Hell. It did not change the Mormon’s belief one whit. I am not saying Mormonism does not harm, only this action.
Actually, I think you missed my point. Of course it didn’t send St. Damien to hell. I never even suggested that. I’ve never even thought of that. That wasn’t the point. My point was that Mormons hold beliefs that will be no favor to them when they arrive at the Judgement. Of course, God is merciful but that doesn’t let the Church Militant of the hook; in fact it could put the Church Militant on the hook.

But, if I did indeed actually misunderstand you, I do apologize.
 
I’ve heard that you can refuse the baptism after death if you don’t want it, but the Church would still record that they did it, because how can a dead person communicate with the Church and say “no I don’t want your baptism - take me off your records”?:confused:
Yes, their belief is that you can say yes or no in the afterlife. However, yes, it does seem that they operate with the assumption (or more appropriately ‘hope’) that the person accepted the baptism, hence why they continue with the subsequent ordinances after baptism.
 
Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) believe that only they have the authority to validly baptize (or perform any other sacraments, which they call ‘ordinances’). Therefore, all converts, whether or not they were baptized before, are baptized. Related to this, they also believe that they can perform these ordinances for those who have died, by proxy (meaning that a living person stands in for the dead person). This allows the dead person to have a chance to hear the LDS gospel, and choose whether or not to accept it. Therefore, a dead person can be baptized, confirmed, be ordained to their priesthood, be sealed (eternally married), and receive their endowment, all by proxy. These rituals are done in their temples, which are only open to certain members that have been interviewed and are determined to be living to a certain standard (though this standard is different and less for those that simply want to baptize for the dead, and not receive rituals like the endowment or eternal marriage for themselves).
Hiyas TheosisM

Thank You!!!

Interesting…but scary, to me.

Mommy taught me…“If they say …‘it’s our secret’. or want you to hide…RUN”
 
I just found my father’s information on familysearch.org. Does that mean somebody “baptized” him by proxy? How could I find out?
You’ll probably need a mormon with access to temple ready to see if it has been done.

It is my understanding from other sites that this information is now hidden for most of the entries on family search.

But, if you look at the link I posted from BYU, it looks like he is cleared to have stuff done for him if his name is showing on family search.

I saw on another post, that the only way you could prevent these from happening is to “request” it not be done by writing to the First presidency. I’m thinking there isn’t any guarantee.
 
Here is an intersting news article showing that the LDS have posthumously baptized, and sealed St. Damien, who was recently canonized by Pope Benedict XVI, to a wife.

Let’s see, the name wasn’t submitted by a relative, and he was a celibate priest. Isn’t there also a rule of 1 generation before ordinances can be done? He passed away in 1989, 20 years is not 1 generation.

sltrib.com/ci_13546142
Well it was more than 20 years… he was born in 1840, died in 1889 and was “sealed” to his parents in 1983… that’s nearly 100 years after his death… By the way… sealing him to his parents and sealing him to a wife are 2 different things…
My husband is sealed to his parents, but we are not married in the Temple (mainly because he is an Ex-Mormon and I never was one).
The “sealing” to a wife happened more recently than 1983 in the case of Damian by the way…
 
We should look at it this way: if the work has been done and the mormons are right, our ancestors are grateful. If the mormons are wrong, our ancestors don’t really care. Either way, our ancestors can only gain. They certainly can not lose. 🙂
 
It makes me wonder what instructions that actually received from their church leaders.

It is amazing that Mormon forum members are calling the Mormon baptism and marriage, by proxy, of St. Damien, an accident.

Anna
It could be an accident. Anyone can submit a name for baptism if the work had been done and checked. And if this is the case, many mistakes would happen. This is not a carpet bombing of records to get dead people baptised. It is basically lds members doing the work for the dead.

My daughter does proxy baptisms at times. She is given a name and is submerged in water. Then it is all over. There is really nothing much to it.
 
catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=27825

Vatican Warns of Mormon 'Baptism of the Dead’
By Chaz Muth
5/3/2008

Catholic News Service (www.catholicnews.com)
**Vatican issues an order to Bishops to not allow Parish records to be given to genealogical societies of the Mormon Church.
**
Advertisement
WASHINGTON (CNS) - In an effort to block posthumous rebaptisms by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Catholic dioceses throughout the world have been directed by the Vatican not to give information in parish registers to the Mormons’ Genealogical Society of Utah.

An April 5 letter from the Vatican Congregation for Clergy, obtained by Catholic News Service in late April, asks episcopal conferences to direct all bishops to keep the Latter-day Saints from microfilming and digitizing information contained in those registers.

The order came in light of “grave reservations” expressed in a Jan. 29 letter from the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the clergy congregation’s letter said.

Father James Massa, executive director of the U.S. bishops’ Secretariat of Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, said the step was taken to prevent the Latter-day Saints from using records – such as baptismal documentation – to posthumously baptize by proxy the ancestors of church members.

Posthumous baptisms by proxy have been a common practice for the Latter-day Saints – commonly known as Mormons – for more than a century, allowing the church’s faithful to have their ancestors baptized into their faith so they may be united in the afterlife, said Mike Otterson, a spokesman in the church’s Salt Lake City headquarters.

In a telephone interview with CNS May 1, Otterson said he wanted a chance to review the contents of the letter before commenting on how it will affect the Mormons’ relationship with the Catholic Church.

“This dicastery is bringing this matter to the attention of the various conferences of bishops,” the letter reads. “The congregation requests that the conference notifies each diocesan bishop in order to ensure that such a detrimental practice is not permitted in his territory, due to the confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

The letter is dated 10 days before Pope Benedict XVI’s April 15-20 U.S. visit, during which he presided over an ecumenical prayer service attended by two Mormon leaders. It marked the first time Mormons had participated in a papal prayer service.

Father Massa said he could see how the policy stated in the letter could strain relations between the Catholic Church and the Latter-day Saints.

“It certainly has that potential,” he said. “But I would also say that the purpose of interreligious dialogue is not to only identify agreements, but also to understand our differences. As Catholics, we have to make very clear to them their practice of so-called rebaptism is unacceptable from the standpoint of Catholic truth.”

The Catholic Church will eventually open a dialogue with the Mormons about the rebaptism issue, Father Massa said, “but we are at the beginning of the beginning of a new relationship with the LDS. The first step in any dialogue is to establish trust and to seek friendship.”

The two faiths share intrinsic viewpoints on key issues the United States is facing, particularly the pro-life position on abortion and an opposition to same-sex marriage.

Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald – vicar general of the Diocese of Salt Lake City – said he didn’t understand why the Latter-day Saints church was singled out in this latest Vatican policy regarding parish records.

“We have a policy not to give out baptismal records to anyone unless they are entitled to have them,” Msgr. Fitzgerald said of his diocese. “That isn’t just for the Church of the Latter-day Saints. That is for all groups.”

Though he said the Salt Lake City Diocese has enjoyed a long-standing dialogue with the Latter-day Saints, Msgr. Fitzgerald said the diocese does not support giving the Mormons names for the sake of rebaptism.

Mormons have been criticized by several other faiths – perhaps most passionately by the Jews – for the church’s practice of posthumous baptism.

Members of the Latter-day Saints believe baptizing their ancestors by proxy gives the dead an opportunity to embrace the faith in the afterlife. The actual baptism-by-proxy ceremony occurs in a Mormon temple, and is intended to wash sins away for the commencement of church membership.

“Baptism by proxy is a fundamentally important doctrine of the Latter-day Saints,” Otterson said. “We have cooperative relationships with churches, governments – both state and national – going back to the last century. Our practice of negotiating for records and making them available for genealogical research is very well known.”

Father Massa said he is not aware of aggressive attempts to obtain baptismal records at Catholic parishes in any of the U.S. dioceses.

He also said the Catholic Church will continue to reach out to the Mormons and carry on the **efforts of understanding **that have already begun, especially in Salt Lake City.

**“Profound theological differences are not an excuse for avoiding dialogue, but a reason for pursuing dialogue,” **Father Massa said.

Copyright (c) 2007 Catholic News Service/U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops
Both Father Masa and Msgr. Fitzgerald seem like reasonable priests and both carry a great spirit inside them.
 
The baptism is silly on a theological level. Either the Mormons are right, and they just did St.Damien a favor; or the Mormon position is wrong, and nothing occurred.

What is more interesting to me is that this is a sociological problem that has theological implications.

Naturally, Mormons and Non-Mormons will clash on the effusiveness of grace from such practices. What also clashes is the definition of ownership that various religious groups have over the dead. Though we live in an information age, there is always the possibility that 1000 years from now, the ancestry records kept (and collected) by the LDS will be a window into the past age. These “baptisms” and these records could effectively skew history as a Mormon narrative. It is (despite well intentions) proselytizing as forced conversion. Which it is, though a difference of degree, a forced conversion that helps propagate the Mormon Church.

Catholics have done the same thing with the dead, even if it hasn’t been to the same official capacity or completed with a ceremony. Virgil, Socrates, the nebulous saints who before retirement were the gods and goddesses of pagan peoples converted by tribe; Catholics and Mormons alike have tried to claim something that wasn’t theirs to establish a further hold on their societies.

But to me, the extent to which the Mormons practice a ‘baptism of the dead’ is very telling as to the character of the Latter Day Saints. The Church suffered mightily with the Reformation by letting “the pagans” into the fold. In subsequent generations, it has sought to clean up a lot of these errors; and even then, none of them harmed actual doctrine and the sacredness of the faith.

The LDS, on the other hand, have made the practice doctrinal. They have to perform it, and it is apart of their liturgy. I’d imagine a Mormon who wished to rid of it would be like a Catholic who wished to rid of the Eucharist; both would find themselves out of their churches. This is because the Catholic is centered around his or her volition to take up their Cross and to become one in the Body of Christ. The Sacraments facilitate this, and the Church is its sacramental grace lead by the Holy Spirit. The Mormon is centered around the family and their connection to the tribal aspects that entails and it is his or her volition to grow that Mormon nationhood with its sacraments and ceremonies.

This latter approach seems to celebrate the imminent and doesn’t have the transcendental power of the former. A Catholic could easily say that his lineage have had its share of various beliefs but it has no immediate eternal bearing on standing before God as a member of the Church for there is “neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian nor Scythian, bond nor free. But Christ is all, and in all.”. Could a Mormon say the same thing? And what does such a position say about the Latter Day Saints in general? 🤷
 
We should look at it this way: if the work has been done and the mormons are right, our ancestors are grateful. If the mormons are wrong, our ancestors don’t really care. Either way, our ancestors can only gain. They certainly can not lose. 🙂
True.
It does not matter what they do to Damian…
I looked at my family history on my husbands side and found quite a few “Mormons” in there… looking at it more closely these folks were given these rituals by proxy from someone else in the family within the last 20 years.
They all got their baptism, endowment, got sealed to their parents and to their spouse years after they passed away…
It does not really matter however because it does not change the state of their soul.
I guess the only one who does have some negative impact out of this is the one who is receiving this for the deceased…
 
Naturally, Mormons and Non-Mormons will clash on the effusiveness of grace from such practices. What also clashes is the definition of ownership that various religious groups have over the dead. Though we live in an information age, there is always the possibility that 1000 years from now, the ancestry records kept (and collected) by the LDS will be a window into the past age. These “baptisms” and these records could effectively skew history as a Mormon narrative. It is (despite well intentions) proselytizing as forced conversion. Which it is, though a difference of degree, a forced conversion that helps propagate the Mormon Church.
No it actually wouldn’t… The family group records are given from generation to generation (and each add their information).
The dates like birth and death are noted there, but also the dates for all of the ceremonies.
Let’s assume there was someone named John Smith… He lived from 1801 to 1895 and was a Catholic. His record shows however that he was baptized into the LDS church in 2001. Nobody would assume that he actually lived to get baptized himself as the date for his baptism is a long time after he passed away.
 
There was a typo in my OP, he passed away in 1889. not 1989. So the 20 years wouldn’t apply.

I mean, come on, they have done Obama’s mother, Hitler, many Jews (even after they signed an agreement they wouldn’t). They even did Simon Wiesenthal, one of the most famous Jewish Nazi hunters in the world.

To me, it is just a blatant disrespect, from a group that screams they aren’t being respected.
It is disrespectful. Of course it means nothing - here on Earth or to God in Heaven. It’s all a game.

But what’s the point of the game. Are they hoping in years to come to “prove” that the whole of humanity is really Mormon?

These fake Baptisms from a religion that was founded by a man with a hat and a peeping stone. And a few posters here have wondered why this religion isn’t “respected”? 🤷
 
Well it was more than 20 years… he was born in 1840, died in 1889 and was “sealed” to his parents in 1983… that’s nearly 100 years after his death… By the way… sealing him to his parents and sealing him to a wife are 2 different things…
My husband is sealed to his parents, but we are not married in the Temple (mainly because he is an Ex-Mormon and I never was one).
The “sealing” to a wife happened more recently than 1983 in the case of Damian by the way…
I think you missed my post that is a couple down from the original, indicating that I had a typo.

But thanks anyway.

I understand the difference between the two types of sealings. I don’t think the article stated anything about being sealed to his parents did it? Or did I miss something?
 
It is disrespectful. Of course it means nothing - here on Earth or to God in Heaven. It’s all a game.

But what’s the point of the game. Are they hoping in years to come to “prove” that the whole of humanity is really Mormon?

These fake Baptisms from a religion that was founded by a man with a hat and a peeping stone. And a few posters here have wondered why this religion isn’t “respected”? 🤷
I agree that their proxy baptisms have no effect whatsoever, but I do believe that it can be misleading to people doing geneological research.

Most of all, I agree that it is disrespectful in the highest degree.
 
I understand the difference between the two types of sealings. I don’t think the article stated anything about being sealed to his parents did it? Or did I miss something?
“Radkey said research into the LDS Church’s FamilySearch database indicates that Damien, born in 1840 in Belgium, was baptized by proxy, given his “endowments” and sealed to his parents for eternity Oct. 22, 1983, in the Los Angeles Temple.
More recently, Damien was sealed to a wife, which Radkey calls “bogus,” on March 15, 2000, at the Jordan River Temple in South Jordan.”
 
I agree that their proxy baptisms have no effect whatsoever, but I do believe that it can be misleading to people doing geneological research.
Well it does not really mislead as they do write the exact dates into the Family Group Records… Someone who gets all of his ceremonies years after he passed away wa most likely not a Mormon at all…
 
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