LDS Baptizes and Seals St. Damien to a "wife"

[dianaiad]

To all LDS: How would you feel if Orthodox priests went with their parishioners to cemeteries and prayed over the tombstones of individual Mormons that their souls would be released from Hell? Honestly.

In Christ,
Andrew

Honestly?

I wouldn’t have a problem with it at all. I’d be honored, actually, that they thought enough of me to do it.

I certainly wouldn’t feel insulted, if that’s what you are trying to get at.

Come to think of it, I don’t know about the Eastern Orthodox rites, but the Catholics pray for their dead, don’t they…in order to shorten the time spent in purgatory?

…I haven’t seen where they ask permission of the dead or the relatives of the dead in order to do that, come to think of it…and I haven’t seen where there is any hint that the dead person can say no, either…

 

[John_Larocque]

I take a philosophical attitude. The LDS ordinances done by proxy don’t prove anything other than someone went through with them. A Catholic or a Hindu who died as such, doesn’t suddenly become LDS because someone performed a proxy baptism. If these ceremonies have no value whatsoever, then nothing has occurred. If the LDS religion is true, then theoretically, they can choose to accept or deny what has been done on their behalf, but it doesn’t affect anything else. It’s interesting this is being juxtaposed with the ancient practice of praying for the dead. In any case, my only concern is that the LDS don’t load in suspect data - hopefully, with the number of users that contribute to their database, the errors can be pruned out, as in the case of the individual who decided to give St. Damien a wife… !

 

[twopekinguys]

OK, that was their choice. Again, the question is, how is it disrespect to YOU that people ignored their signs?

So, it was done, and now nobody is going to do it again. I repeat. How is it disrespect to YOU that anybody knocked on their doors?

Make your mind up. I understand that one of the biggest objections here is that people don’t want to see references to LDS baptisms on the family records. It’s 'disrespectful." So which is it? If you don’t SEE the references there, then there is no insult, is there–especially if you believe that nothing we do is effective in any way.

Ok, so your dad can tell the missionaries one last time to get off his lawn, and this time it will stick. How is anything that goes on between the missinaries and your father disrespect to YOU?

That’s a lot of supposition there.

I don’t know. I have no idea about this issue, or whether St. Damien’s birth records would HAVE him listed as “Father” something or other. It would be amazingly prescient of his parents if they did.

For someone that comes from a religion that is all about family, I would have thought it was obvious. But I guess I’ll have to explain it as simply as I can.

You mess with my family, and you mess with me. Mormons arent the only ones who take family seriously. Including family wishes before their death.

Was that clear enough for you?

I would love to see if there are any ordinances listed for my family members, because I would go after the lds and get them removed. I wouldn’t pussyfoot around like the Jewish community did.

You’ve heard the saying…Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned? Well, that is nothing compared to an Irishman that is honked off. Trust me.

But then again, it is obvious from the fiasco with the jewish community that the lds leaderships word isn’t worth the paper the agreement was signed on, so I wouldn’t expect anything more than mere lip service.

But Fr. Damien’s death certificate would contain both his birth name, and the name taken by his order.

 

[Harpazo]

I take a philosophical attitude. The LDS ordinances done by proxy don’t prove anything other than someone went through with them. A Catholic or a Hindu who died as such, doesn’t suddenly become LDS because someone performed a proxy baptism. If these ceremonies have no value whatsoever, then nothing has occurred. If the LDS religion is true, then theoretically, they can choose to accept or deny what has been done on their behalf, but it doesn’t affect anything else. It’s interesting this is being juxtaposed with the ancient practice of praying for the dead. In any case, my only concern is that the LDS don’t load in suspect data - hopefully, with the number of users that contribute to their database, the errors can be pruned out, as in the case of the individual who decided to give St. Damien a wife… !

My problem is this: I do NOT want my progeny to look up my ancestry down the line and “find out” that I was LDS, even though I am not and will never be. It could potentially cause great damage to their faith, possibly causing them to abandon God altogether! I find it highly insulting that they would do such a thing because it is a blatant lie, however well-intentioned it may be.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[dianaiad]

For someone that comes from a religion that is all about family, I would have thought it was obvious. But I guess I’ll have to explain it as simply as I can.

You mess with my family, and you mess with me. Mormons arent the only ones who take family seriously. Including family wishes before their death.

If they don’t want to be LDS strongly enough before they die to make their wishes known, I’m certain that they will make their wishes in that matter equally clear in the after life.

Was that clear enough for you?

Sure. Would your father have appreciated your putting a ‘get off my lawn’ sign in his front yard without asking his permission–or would he rather make his own decisions in this matter?

It’s not like we are kidnapping him, for crying out loud.

I would love to see if there are any ordinances listed for my family members, because I would go after the lds and get them removed. I wouldn’t pussyfoot around like the Jewish community did.

Ah…and here I thought that you were protesting an action already taken. (shrug) my bad.

You’ve heard the saying…Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned? Well, that is nothing compared to an Irishman that is honked off. Trust me.

But then again, it is obvious from the fiasco with the jewish community that the lds leaderships word isn’t worth the paper the agreement was signed on, so I wouldn’t expect anything more than mere lip service.

But Fr. Damien’s death certificate would contain both his birth name, and the name taken by his order.

Would it? I wouldn’t know. In case you haven’t figured it out yet, this thread went far beyond the specific case of Fr. Damien, and I haven’t been talking specifically about him. Even so, if you are correct, and Fr. Damien is St. Damien–and the Mormons are all wrong about this, Fr. Damien doesn’t even have a clue that this work was done. Even we don’t believe it would affect him unless he wanted it to.

you are taking offense that isn’t offered to you, in other words, and as far as your father is concerned, you are getting ‘honked off’ about something that didn’t happen.

I mean, really.

 

[dianaiad]

My problem is this: I do NOT want my progeny to look up my ancestry down the line and “find out” that I was LDS, even though I am not and will never be. It could potentially cause great damage to their faith, possibly causing them to abandon God altogether! I find it highly insulting that they would do such a thing because it is a blatant lie, however well-intentioned it may be.

In Christ,
Andrew

Oh, now THAT’S irony. I love it.

 

[PaulDupre]

Ok, let’s say that you and your family live in a ‘compound’ of sorts: that is, your parents live in one home, you live a block down, and your brothers and sisters live in varous houses between you.

One day a couple of Mormon missionaries (or Baptists, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, or the local Brownie Scout troup selling cookies…whatever.) walk down the street, knocking on all the doors.

Kindly tell me how it is disrespectful to YOU for them to knock on your parent’s door?

I don’t think your analogy holds here. The girl scouts bring cookies. They don’t try to convince my parents that their religion is an abomination.

 

[Prague]

So, here I am in heaven in the loving presence of God, and I get a notice I can now change my mind and become a mormon…

Just what level of the mormon heaven would I be sent off too???

Don’t tell me I already know.

A few years ago when I started doing research on my family, I was astounded and upset to find my very Catholic family listed as baptized, sealed, etc. Aunts, and Uncles that were nuns, and priests were givien husbands and wives.

 

[Harpazo]

Oh, now THAT’S irony. I love it.

I’m no iron!

But seriously, can you address my post? I’m glad you love it.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[zaffiroborant]

OK, that was their choice. Again, the question is, how is it disrespect to YOU that people ignored their signs?

So, it was done, and now nobody is going to do it again. I repeat. How is it disrespect to YOU that anybody knocked on their doors?

How is anything that goes on between the missinaries and your father **disrespect to YOU? **

I don’t see that it has to be disrespectful of him, why can’t he find something disrespectful of another?

 

[amontoya]

Ok, let’s say that you and your family live in a ‘compound’ of sorts: that is, your parents live in one home, you live a block down, and your brothers and sisters live in various houses between you.

One day a couple of Mormon missionaries (or Baptists, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, or the local Brownie Scout troup selling cookies…whatever.) walk down the street, knocking on all the doors.

Kindly tell me how it is disrespectful to YOU for them to knock on your parent’s door?

How is it disrespectful to THEM for the missionaries or the girl scouts to mark their names on a list that says the offer was made?

If this was actually what was being done, then there would be no disrespect. If the missionaries were speaking to my father, then he would have the opportunity to say “no thank you.”

When he was living down the street he rejected the missionaries, was a dedicated Christian, and made sure that his children knew what he believed. In this analogy, let’s say he even went so far as to post signs in his yard stating what he religion he was.

However, he isn’t living in the house down the street anymore. He can’t speak to the missionaries to say “no thanks.” So the responsibility falls to me to honor him, and tell the missionaries “no” for him.

If I see the missionaries going toward his house, I’m going to ask them to leave that house alone, because my father has passed away, but he made very clear to me while he was alive that he didn’t want what they were offering. I could even direct them to read the yard signs that tell of his decisions.

It would be very offensive to me, but flat out disrepectful of him, if the missionaries ignored me and his own declarations, and went to his house anyway.

This is what is happening. My father was a Christian. Everyone in the family knew it. His birth, baptism, marriage, and death records attest to it. It is disrespectful to ignore his family’s witness and the choices he made in this life, and perform religious ceremonies in his name for a religion he didn’t believe.

 

[twopekinguys]

If they don’t want to be LDS strongly enough before they die to make their wishes known, I’m certain that they will make their wishes in that matter equally clear in the after life.

Sure. Would your father have appreciated your putting a ‘get off my lawn’ sign in his front yard without asking his permission–or would he rather make his own decisions in this matter?

It’s not like we are kidnapping him, for crying out loud.

Ah…and here I thought that you were protesting an action already taken. (shrug) my bad.

Would it? I wouldn’t know. In case you haven’t figured it out yet, this thread went far beyond the specific case of Fr. Damien, and I haven’t been talking specifically about him. Even so, if you are correct, and Fr. Damien is St. Damien–and the Mormons are all wrong about this, Fr. Damien doesn’t even have a clue that this work was done. Even we don’t believe it would affect him unless he wanted it to.

you are taking offense that isn’t offered to you, in other words, and as far as your father is concerned, you are getting ‘honked off’ about something that didn’t happen.

I mean, really.

These so called proxy baptisms remind me of that one particullary nasty and persistant fly at every picnic.

I just don’t get these people. It’s like once you become mormon they lose all sense of logic and reason.

If you’re talking too loud in a theater and someone asks you to hush, you do. (in most cases), but when you encroach on another person or families religous beliefs and traditions, selective hearing kicks in.

People who crack/pop their gum is another example. You ask a person to quit doing it, and if they have any common sense or manners of any kind, they refrain. But when you encroach on another person or families religous beliefs and tradition, selective hearing kicks in.

I am totally amazed at how many mormons pull out the persecution card, but refuse to admit they are bringing much of it on themselves by ignoring the rest of the world.

It is also amazing how many mormons scream, whine and moan about not being respected, but yet refuse to respect others.

Boy, you guys are an upstanding bunch aren’t you?

With regards to my father, trust me, you didn’t know him, and right now, you are treading on very thin ice.

He would have understood anything I did with him, and or for him.

I will say it again. For a bunch that supposedly values family so much, you sure dont understand it, or respect it very well.

 

[ParkerD]

If this was actually what was being done, then there would be no disrespect. If the missionaries were speaking to my father, then he would have the opportunity to say “no thank you.”

When he was living down the street he rejected the missionaries, was a dedicated Christian, and made sure that his children knew what he believed. In this analogy, let’s say he even went so far as to post signs in his yard stating what he religion he was.

However, he isn’t living in the house down the street anymore. He can’t speak to the missionaries to say “no thanks.” So the responsibility falls to me to honor him, and tell the missionaries “no” for him.

If I see the missionaries going toward his house, I’m going to ask them to leave that house alone, because my father has passed away, but he made very clear to me while he was alive that he didn’t want what they were offering. I could even direct them to read the yard signs that tell of his decisions.

It would be very offensive to me, but flat out disrepectful of him, if the missionaries ignored me and his own declarations, and went to his house anyway.

This is what is happening. My father was a Christian. Everyone in the family knew it. His birth, baptism, marriage, and death records attest to it. It is disrespectful to ignore his family’s witness and the choices he made in this life, and perform religious ceremonies in his name for a religion he didn’t believe.

Amontoya,
I respect your point of view and your strong feelings. I have no idea whether you father’s “baptism for the dead” has been completed (I doubt it), but his telling the “missionaries” one more time in the spirit world that he is completely happy with his choices and decisions and to be left alone and that such an ordinance means absolutely nothing to him, might actually be enjoyable for him to do–asserting his decision one more time with all the authority of his ancestors there with him to back him up. You could look at it that way. Or you can choose to look at it the way you have described.

I can’t see why he’d be bothered by the beliefs of this comparatively tiny religion on earth, especially if there is all the joy that I have thought Catholics describe as “heaven.” Wouldn’t he be too busy and too joyous to care about a tiny thing on earth compared with what is happening in heaven?

 

[twopekinguys]

Amontoya,
I respect your point of view and your strong feelings. I have no idea whether you father’s “baptism for the dead” has been completed (I doubt it), but his telling the “missionaries” one more time in the spirit world that he is completely happy with his choices and decisions and to be left alone and that such an ordinance means absolutely nothing to him, might actually be enjoyable for him to do–asserting his decision one more time with all the authority of his ancestors there with him to back him up. You could look at it that way. Or you can choose to look at it the way you have described.

I can’t see why he’d be bothered by the beliefs of this comparatively tiny religion on earth, especially if there is all the joy that I have thought Catholics describe as “heaven.” Wouldn’t he be too busy and too joyous to care about a tiny thing on earth compared with what is happening in heaven?

But why bug him at all?

People in Heaven don’t need that irritating fly buzzing around them all the time now do they?

 

[amontoya]

Amontoya,
I respect your point of view and your strong feelings. I have no idea whether your father’s “baptism for the dead” has been completed (I doubt it)…

ParkerD,
Why do you doubt it? And why can’t I (as his closest living relative) found out if it has been done?

…but his telling the “missionaries” one more time in the spirit world that he is completely happy with his choices and decisions and to be left alone and that such an ordinance means absolutely nothing to him, might actually be enjoyable for him to do–asserting his decision one more time with all the authority of his ancestors there with him to back him up. You could look at it that way. Or you can choose to look at it the way you have described.

Actually, I don’t think he needs to or even has the opportunity to tell the missionaries “no,” because he has already been judged by God based on his reponse to God’s call in this life. The way I look at it is this: what the LDS do is irrelevant because their concept of the afterlife is false, and my father’s fate has already been sealed. However, just because one thing is irrelevant to the nature of something else, doesn’t mean it can’t be offensive.

It’s kind of like if I’m in the middle of Mass, and somebody runs through yelling “Catholics worship Mary.” Its irrelevant, untrue, and doesn’t change anything, but its still offensive.

I can’t see why he’d be bothered by the beliefs of this comparatively tiny religion on earth, especially if there is all the joy that I have thought Catholics describe as “heaven.” Wouldn’t he be too busy and too joyous to care about a tiny thing on earth compared with what is happening in heaven?

I don’t think he is bothered by it, except perhaps out of concern for the souls of those people in this religion. The point is that I’m bothered by the fact that this tiny religion doesn’t respect my father’s choice.

I’m more bothered by the fact that, from what I know of how this works, only mormon family can submit names for this geneology/ordinance record. However, the only people left from my father’s family are my brother and I, and neither of us is mormon. So, if its only supposed to be family submitting names for this, why does his name pop up in your database?

 

[why_me]

What the mormons are doing is what they claim is in the bible in verse 1 Cor.15:29. So they are actually doing it out of love and they our believing that they are obeying God’s will. The actual problem is not with the mormons but in what the bible says. Paul should have been more clear in his letter. However, since Paul understood that the church would understand him clearly regardless of how he said it, he chose to say it in the way he did.

But the problem is with the bible and not with the mormons.

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD,
Why do you doubt it? And why can’t I (as his closest living relative) found out if it has been done?

Actually, I don’t think he needs to or even has the opportunity to tell the missionaries “no,” because he has already been judged by God based on his reponse to God’s call in this life. The way I look at it is this: what the LDS do is irrelevant because their concept of the afterlife is false, and my father’s fate has already been sealed. However, just because one thing is irrelevant to the nature of something else, doesn’t mean it can’t be offensive.

It’s kind of like if I’m in the middle of Mass, and somebody runs through yelling “Catholics worship Mary.” Its irrelevant, untrue, and doesn’t change anything, but its still offensive.

I don’t think he is bothered by it, except perhaps out of concern for the souls of those people in this religion. The point is that I’m bothered by the fact that this tiny religion doesn’t respect my father’s choice.

I’m more bothered by the fact that, from what I know of how this works, only mormon family can submit names for this geneology/ordinance record. However, the only people left from my father’s family are my brother and I, and neither of us is mormon. So, if its only supposed to be family submitting names for this, why does his name pop up in your database?

Amontoya,
In answer to your two questions here,

1. The International Genealogical Index (IGI) used to be on microfiche in libraries in many places in the world, especially cities in the United States. If ordinance work had been done, it showed it on those microfiche that were available for anyone to look at who had an interest in looking at it. If the name you were researching showed up on the IGI index in the current database, then there is a reasonable chance their ordinance work was done. If on another index such as the Pedigree Resource File, then most likely that ordinance work has not been done unless a descendant is a member of the LDS church.
2. It is there because there do happen to be people who like using the resources and search engine that are available to them in that multi-source database, so they can research their own family history for their own purposes.

 

[kalt]

No it isn’t. I don’t know any genealogist who doesn’t understand the idea behind the dates.

To whom?

Ok, let’s say that you and your family live in a ‘compound’ of sorts: that is, your parents live in one home, you live a block down, and your brothers and sisters live in varous houses between you.

One day a couple of Mormon missionaries (or Baptists, or Jehovah’s Witnesses, or the local Brownie Scout troup selling cookies…whatever.) walk down the street, knocking on all the doors.

Kindly tell me how it is disrespectful to YOU for them to knock on your parent’s door?

How is it disrespectful to THEM for the missionaries or the girl scouts to mark their names on a list that says the offer was made?

Because, m’friend, that’s what proxy baptism IS, for us. It isn’t a fait accompli. Only those who don’t know what it is think that it does anything at all that the folks for whom it is done don’t want done. Nor do we assume that 'of course they’ll WANT it."

If we are the ones doing it, then you kinda have to go with what we think it actually does, don’t you? How logical is it to think it has more effect than WE think it does?

I have never quite figured that out.

We don’t think your proxy baptism does anything–not even what you think it does.
It’s disrespectful because the people you are targeting are other people’s dead family members. If you don’t understand that that is a hands off area, there’s likely nothing any of us can say to make you understand. Common decency says to leave other people’s dead relatives alone, even if they (the other people) know that what you’re doing is really nothing.

The fact is that you are writing their names down in your lists. You have no right to do that. This was not the dead person’s religion, and you have no right to trample on a dead person.

If baptism after death were possible, I’m sure God would handle it himself and wouldn’t need you to make the offer.

If I ever find one of my relatives on your list, you won’t want to be there when I visit Mormon country.

 

[kalt]

These so called proxy baptisms remind me of that one particullary nasty and persistant fly at every picnic.

I just don’t get these people. It’s like once you become mormon they lose all sense of logic and reason.

If you’re talking too loud in a theater and someone asks you to hush, you do. (in most cases), but when you encroach on another person or families religous beliefs and traditions, selective hearing kicks in.

People who crack/pop their gum is another example. You ask a person to quit doing it, and if they have any common sense or manners of any kind, they refrain. But when you encroach on another person or families religous beliefs and tradition, selective hearing kicks in.

I am totally amazed at how many mormons pull out the persecution card, but refuse to admit they are bringing much of it on themselves by ignoring the rest of the world.

It is also amazing how many mormons scream, whine and moan about not being respected, but yet refuse to respect others.

Boy, you guys are an upstanding bunch aren’t you?

With regards to my father, trust me, you didn’t know him, and right now, you are treading on very thin ice.

He would have understood anything I did with him, and or for him.

I will say it again. For a bunch that supposedly values family so much, you sure dont understand it, or respect it very well.

How do you find out if these people have taken your relatives’ name and added it to their list? My family comes up on their site, but only in the death records, as far as I know, that are available on every geneology site. I don’t subscribe to their geneology pages–would I be able to find out if they’ve taken my relatives’ names without paying a fee?

Will they remove the name if requested to? Would I have to get a lawyer to draft a letter to get them to remove the names from anything Mormon? Court?

 

[kimmielittle]

So, here I am in heaven in the loving presence of God, and I get a notice I can now change my mind and become a mormon…

Just what level of the mormon heaven would I be sent off too???

Don’t tell me I already know.

A few years ago when I started doing research on my family, I was astounded and upset to find my very Catholic family listed as baptized, sealed, etc. Aunts, and Uncles that were nuns, and priests were givien husbands and wives.