LDS - Belief in Heavenly Mother; Prayers?

[SteveVH]

We believe that this points, not to a oneness of substance/being, but a oneness of purpose, will, intent.

Why?

Sorry, I don’t think I meant to say that. Heavenly Mother certainly is a deified being, however I meant that she is not God, as in God the Father, and therefore she is not the subject of adoration or worship, and Jesus revealing the Father doesn’t have to include discussing Heavenly Mother.

To be “deified” necessarily implies that one did not start out that way. God does not require deification. The only alternative is that she is a creature. And you avoided the rest of my question, regardless of her status as a deity:

Originally Postedby SteveVH
At some point you must, through simple human reason, come to the point of One who did not have a created mother or father. One Who is eternal, without beginning. Does “Heavenly Mother” also have a “Heavenly Mother” who also has a “Heavenly Mother”…? Where does it end? When you follow the river upstream, what do you find as the source?

I would be very interested in your answer.

Yes, I understand that is your view. We believe that we are children of God, and that, through the infinite atonement of Jesus Christ, we can become joint-heirs in Christ (Rom 8:17), sitting with Christ on His throne, even as He sits at the throne of the Father (Rev 3:21). God will always be our Father, and Jesus Christ will always be our Savior, and we believe that a belief in exaltation (a gift from God that we cannot merit by ourselves, of our own doing) does not conflict with that.

All Christians believe that they are children of God, BYU, however, not through procreation or exaltation, but through adoption. We are in no way equal, nor will we ever be.

We agree that all revelation points to Christ. However we do not believe that Hebrews 1:1-2 meant an end to prophecy or prophets. Indeed, we believe that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Rev 19:10), and that Jesus Himself event sent prophets after Him (Matt 23:34, Luke 11:49, Matt 10:40-41, Acts 11:27, Acts 13:1, etc). We believe that all revelation points to the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, and to the Kingdom of God. We don’t believe that Hebrews 1:1-2 means that prophets are unnecessary (as we see from the previously cited verses, there were prophets after Jesus, some even sent by Him), but that it contrasts the way that God spoke, and that God speaking through His divine Son, the Savior, is different from speaking through prophets (an exegesis that does not necessitate an ending of having prophets).

I did not say that Jesus was the last prophet, rather that all prophecy and revelation is fulfilled in Him. He is the revelation. That is why no other revelation is necessary. It has already been revealed in Him. Do you understand the difference? This seems to be the standard Mormon response to this question but avoids the real question. Is Christ not sufficient? The Apostles preached Christ and only Christ, they did not have a revelation apart from Him.

I have a question, how do you believe God communicates with the Catholic Church, differently from the way He speaks to us individually (if so)? What do you mean by that?

God communicates with His Church in every aspect of its life, through the Holy Spirit, who guides it into all truth, as promised by Christ. He speaks to us through the Magisterium; through the Sacred Scriptures; through Sacred Tradition; in its liturgies; through the lives of the saints; and most especially through the sacraments, the first among them being the Holy Eucharist. The Church is the body of Christ Himself. He communicates to His body the way your brain tells your lungs to breathe and your heart to beat. He is inseparable from His Church because He is the Church. Having a relationship with God means having a relationship with His Church.

He speaks to each of us individually, by making His home within us, making us a living tabernacle; in our private prayers, guiding our lives through the power of the Holy Spirit who enlightens us. He guides us away from sin and calls us to holiness, each and every day.

Peace to you.

 

[BYUChemAlum]

Why?

Because the contexts of the verses do not point to a oneness of substance being discussed, nor would the verses cited make sense if they were saying that we are to be one substance with each other.

To be “deified” necessarily implies that one did not start out that way. God does not require deification. The only alternative is that she is a creature. And you avoided the rest of my question, regardless of her status as a deity:

I would be very interested in your answer.

No, I didn’t avoid the rest of your question, since I believe I’ve already responded to the heart of that question before in this thread, specifically on what has actually been revealed regarding Heavenly Mother. All else is speculative. I personally do not think about whether Heavenly Mother had a Mother, etc., since such things do not really matter, have not been revealed, and are really framed by interpretations of things that I may not agree with. See this for a brief summary of what I’m referring to.

All Christians believe that they are children of God, BYU, however, not through procreation or exaltation, but through adoption. We are in no way equal, nor will we ever be.

I believe i stated this in my post-“God will always be our Father, and Jesus Christ will always be our Savior, and we believe that a belief in exaltation (a gift from God that we cannot merit by ourselves, of our own doing) does not conflict with that.”. We will always be God’s children, and never equal to Him. Becoming joint-heirs with Christ does not make us equal to God.

I did not say that Jesus was the last prophet, rather that all prophecy and revelation is fulfilled in Him. He is the revelation. That is why no other revelation is necessary. It has already been revealed in Him.

What exactly has already been revealed in Jesus? Jesus “is the revelation” of what? The Father?

Also, if Jesus was not the last prophet, but all prophecy and revelation is fulfilled in Him, what do you mean by this?

Do you understand the difference? This seems to be the standard Mormon response to this question but avoids the real question. Is Christ not sufficient? The Apostles preached Christ and only Christ, they did not have a revelation apart from Him.

Is Christ not sufficient for what? LDS certainly believe that Jesus Christ is sufficient for our salvation, and it is only through His infinite atonement that anyone can be saved. The “standard Mormon response” does not avoid the real question, because it shows that there were prophets after Christ (what other purpose would there be in citing Hebrews 1:1-2, since this is the point that LDS critics usually make when citing it. If that was not your purpose in citing Heb 1:1-2, verses about prophets and Jesus, then what did you mean by it?).

As far as revelation itself, there is no Biblical basis for saying that revelation ended with Jesus (Hebrews 1:1-2 don’t say that), and interestingly, I have seen conflicting statements on that issue, where some believe that it ended with Jesus (which wouldn’t make sense if we believe that the New Testament is revelation from God, and describes “public revelation” received from God), while others believe it ended with the death of the last apostle.

 

[Stephen168]

God communicates with His Church in every aspect of its life, through the Holy Spirit, who guides it into all truth, as promised by Christ. He speaks to us through the Magisterium; through the Sacred Scriptures; through Sacred Tradition; in its liturgies; through the lives of the saints; and most especially through the sacraments, the first among them being the Holy Eucharist. The Church is the body of Christ Himself. He communicates to His body the way your brain tells your lungs to breathe and your heart to beat. He is inseparable from His Church because He is the Church. Having a relationship with God means having a relationship with His Church.

He speaks to each of us individually, by making His home within us, making us a living tabernacle; in our private prayers, guiding our lives through the power of the Holy Spirit who enlightens us. He guides us away from sin and calls us to holiness, each and every day.

Peace to you.

Excellent; I would also add that he communicates through his creation and our person (reason). God is reason and we are created in his image. Through his creation, we learn of the creator.

 

[SteveVH]

Excellent; I would also add that he communicates through his creation and our person (reason). God is reason and we are created in his image. Through his creation, we learn of the creator.

Most definately. Thanks for your addition.

 

[Javl]

Okay, then tell me where they are?
They were scattered throughout all the nations of the earth, just like the Bible states.
They are “Lost” in terms of immediate recognition, but scripture states they will be gathered in the last days.
In fact, the gathering of Israel will be such a huge event that the prophet Jeremiah states:

The gathering of Israel will supplant the Exodus as event that showcases the Lord’s might.
So even though every single individual of the 10 tribes in question may not have been scattered, enough were to be unrecognizeable as a “tribe” or “tribes”.

How do I get you to understand? The “lost tribes” is a myth. Your insistence that the Bible supports this is your fallacy and misunderstanding of Scripture.
Every religious Jew today ( and most likely secular ones too ) can trace his/her lineage to any one of the twelve tribes. If you ever bother to talk to a Jew he/she will tell you this. Also, you seem to be building a big strawman with your “understanding”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

How do I get you to understand? The “lost tribes” is a myth. Your insistence that the Bible supports this is your fallacy and misunderstanding of Scripture.
Every religious Jew today ( and most likely secular ones too ) can trace his/her lineage to any one of the twelve tribes. If you ever bother to talk to a Jew he/she will tell you this. Also, you seem to be building a big strawman with your “understanding”.

How does that prove that the “Lost Tribes” never happened?

 

[SteveVH]

Because the contexts of the verses do not point to a oneness of substance being discussed, nor would the verses cited make sense if they were saying that we are to be one substance with each other.

That is because you misinterpret the meaning of “image and likeness”.

No, I didn’t avoid the rest of your question, since I believe I’ve already responded to the heart of that question before in this thread, specifically on what has actually been revealed regarding Heavenly Mother. All else is speculative. I personally do not think about whether Heavenly Mother had a Mother, etc., since such things do not really matter, have not been revealed, and are really framed by interpretations of things that I may not agree with. See this for a brief summary of what I’m referring to.

The fact that you don’t think about it is telling. Think about it and then answer my question, if you don’t mind. It goes way beyond “Heavenly Mother” and is at the heart of LDS theology. So I would strongly disagree that such things “do not really matter”.

I believe i stated this in my post-“God will always be our Father, and Jesus Christ will always be our Savior, and we believe that a belief in exaltation (a gift from God that we cannot merit by ourselves, of our own doing) does not conflict with that.”. We will always be God’s children, and never equal to Him. Becoming joint-heirs with Christ does not make us equal to God.

Does it make us equal to Christ?

What exactly has already been revealed in Jesus? Jesus “is the revelation” of what? The Father?

Also, if Jesus was not the last prophet, but all prophecy and revelation is fulfilled in Him, what do you mean by this?

We are speaking past each other, BYU. When we say that Christ is the fulfillment of revelation, that He IS God’s revelation, we are saying that He doesn’t just tell us about light, rather that He is that light. He does not just reveal love, but rather is Love itself. He doesn’t prophecy about salvation, He is salvation. He doesn’t just speak about truth, He is that Truth. He doesn’t just show us the way, He is the Way. Those that came before Him, prophesied about Him. Those that came after Him gave witness to this life. He is Gods definitive Word and no other word needs to be or will be spoken. Salvation history is complete, the new and everlasting covenant has been established.

Bottom line is that there is nothing new that can add to Christ. This does not mean that there will not be private revelation in the future, but only insofar as it leads us back to Christ, or helps us to be more like Him. This is where we distinguish between public and private revelation. The truth of God’s identity, the means of our salvation and our eternal destiny has been revealed to the world, in Jesus Christ. That is public revelation and the basis for our doctrines. Private revelation continues, constantly, in order to allow us to more fully understand that one truth found only in Jesus,

 

[SteveVH]

How do I get you to understand? The “lost tribes” is a myth. Your insistence that the Bible supports this is your fallacy and misunderstanding of Scripture.
Every religious Jew today ( and most likely secular ones too ) can trace his/her lineage to any one of the twelve tribes. If you ever bother to talk to a Jew he/she will tell you this. Also, you seem to be building a big strawman with your “understanding”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Javl, where do you get your information? My understanding is that the ten tribes of the north intermarried with the pagan tribes and became unfaithful to God, worshipping idols, etc… Assyria invaded, took Samaria and conquered Israel. They were then scattered throughout the huge Assyrian empire. It was the Kingdom of Judah (the tribes of Judah and Benjamin) in the south that remained relatively faithful. All of the kings were from the line of David. The other ten really ceased to exist. Maybe I’m missing something.

Peace

 

[Javl]

How does that prove that the “Lost Tribes” never happened?

In the general understanding of the “lost tribes” they disappeared totally from the world.
No trace, geneological or otherwise, exists of them. But each and every Jew today can trace his/her lineage to any one of the twelve tribes. For example; those surnamed Cohen are of the tribe of Levi. Because the tribes are not gathered into totally individual communities ***does not *** mean that they were, have been, or are lost. If the diaspora is the LDS definition of “lost”, then all twelve tribes, and not ten, are “lost”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[flyonthewall]

In the general understanding of the “lost tribes” they disappeared totally from the world.
No trace, geneological or otherwise, exists of them. But each and every Jew today can trace his/her lineage to any one of the twelve tribes. For example; those surnamed Cohen are of the tribe of Levi. Because the tribes are not gathered into totally individual communities ***does not *** mean that they were, have been, or are lost. If the diaspora is the LDS definition of “lost”, then all twelve tribes, and not ten, are “lost”.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

The tribe of Levi was scattered throughout all the tribes of Israel. It is no surprise that Levites can be found.
How do you understand the gathering of Israel then? And if no tribes were lost, why is it such a huge event to gather them? No biggie if they are still here and accounted for.
I do believe it is you that has misunderstood the scriptures.

 

[zerinus]

In the general understanding of the “lost tribes” they disappeared totally from the world.
No trace, geneological or otherwise, exists of them. But each and every Jew today can trace his/her lineage to any one of the twelve tribes. For example; those surnamed Cohen are of the tribe of Levi. Because the tribes are not gathered into totally individual communities ***does not *** mean that they were, have been, or are lost. If the diaspora is the LDS definition of “lost”, then all twelve tribes, and not ten, are “lost”.

“Lost tribes” does not mean that every Jew or Israelite on the planet was lost. So, those who are not lost have genealogies; but those who are lost, well, they are lost, LOL, so we can’t trace their genealogies.

 

[Javl]

The tribe of Levi was scattered throughout all the tribes of Israel. It is no surprise that Levites can be found.
How do you understand the gathering of Israel then? And if no tribes were lost, why is it such a huge event to gather them? No biggie if they are still here and accounted for.
I do believe it is you that has misunderstood the scriptures.

It is not I who misunderstand, but you. Read Paul’s letter to the Romans 9. Maybe you can understand “the gathering”. The “gathering” will occur on Jesus’
return when every Jew will acknowledge Him as the Messiah and God.

We are getting off topic. This is the subject of another thread.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

“Lost tribes” does not mean that every Jew or Israelite on the planet was lost. So, those who are not lost have genealogies; but those who are lost, well, they are lost, LOL, so we can’t trace their genealogies.

When a Jew denies his/her God, religion, or cultural heritage, he/she is no longer considered a Jew. This is the “lost” Jew.

PAX DOMINI :signofctoss:

Shalom Aleichem

 

[SteveVH]

Can I please get a Mormon response to the following statement and question which has now been avoided twice?

"At some point you must, through simple human reason, come to the point of One who did not have a created mother or father. One Who is eternal, without beginning. Does “Heavenly Mother” also have a “Heavenly Mother” who also has a “Heavenly Mother”…? Where does it end? When you follow the river upstream, what do you find as the source?"

Thank you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’ve seen two typical responses 1) It is not something to worry over. It is what it is and it doesn’t have anything to do with their idea of salvation. 2) All humans, including their gods are sourced from “intelligence”. This “intelligence” being the thing that is eternal and infinite. This is how the finite concept of gods can be viewed as eternal and infinite …as well as themselves.

Peace.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Mormon Church should allow its women to seek knowledge about Mary, who is also addressed as the Seat of Wisdom.

Tonight on tv, I saw a sculpted face of Mary allegedly done by St. Luke, and how this statue was miraculously discovered near the River of Guadalupe which became the inspiration of grace for the Spaniards to reclaim their country for Christ, taking them 700 years.

There is great grace of Mary’s companionship for the homemaker and the raising of children…

 

[flyonthewall]

Can I please get a Mormon response to the following statement and question which has now been avoided twice?

"At some point you must, through simple human reason, come to the point of One who did not have a created mother or father. One Who is eternal, without beginning. Does “Heavenly Mother” also have a “Heavenly Mother” who also has a “Heavenly Mother”…? Where does it end? When you follow the river upstream, what do you find as the source?"

Thank you.

.
You ask a question that has no known answer. That is the only response that can be given to your question. Perhaps you can understand if we stated it is a “mystery”.

 

[BYUChemAlum]

Can I please get a Mormon response to the following statement and question which has now been avoided twice?

"At some point you must, through simple human reason, come to the point of One who did not have a created mother or father. One Who is eternal, without beginning. Does “Heavenly Mother” also have a “Heavenly Mother” who also has a “Heavenly Mother”…? Where does it end? When you follow the river upstream, what do you find as the source?"

Thank you.

I already responded to this question, and my answer was the same as that provided by fly. There is simply no revelation on that, and therefore we do not know. Any definitive answers provided would thus be speculative and not definitive. That is the Mormon response.

 

[BYUChemAlum]

That is because you misinterpret the meaning of “image and likeness”.

This response doesn’t address the actual issue of whether a oneness of substance makes more sense than a oneness of purpose, will, intent in the context of the verses provided, since I could also say that traditional Christians misinterpret the meaning of “image and likeness”.

The fact that you don’t think about it is telling. Think about it and then answer my question, if you don’t mind. It goes way beyond “Heavenly Mother” and is at the heart of LDS theology. So I would strongly disagree that such things “do not really matter”.

I’ve already thought about it and provided my response on the issue before. Since there is no revelation from God on the matter, than I simply believe what has already been revealed.

Does it make us equal to Christ?

Equal to Him in what way? We will always be lower than Jesus Christ, dependent on Him as our merciful Savior. However, we will also be (or more appropriately, hope to be) joint-heirs with Him, and hope to sit on His throne with Him, just as He sits in the Father’s throne (verses previously provided for these beliefs)

We are speaking past each other, BYU. When we say that Christ is the fulfillment of revelation, that He IS God’s revelation, we are saying that He doesn’t just tell us about light, rather that He is that light. He does not just reveal love, but rather is Love itself. He doesn’t prophecy about salvation, He is salvation. He doesn’t just speak about truth, He is that Truth. He doesn’t just show us the way, He is the Way. Those that came before Him, prophesied about Him. Those that came after Him gave witness to this life. He is Gods definitive Word and no other word needs to be or will be spoken. Salvation history is complete, the new and everlasting covenant has been established.

Bottom line is that there is nothing new that can add to Christ. This does not mean that there will not be private revelation in the future, but only insofar as it leads us back to Christ, or helps us to be more like Him. This is where we distinguish between public and private revelation. The truth of God’s identity, the means of our salvation and our eternal destiny has been revealed to the world, in Jesus Christ. That is public revelation and the basis for our doctrines. Private revelation continues, constantly, in order to allow us to more fully understand that one truth found only in Jesus,

Latter-day Saints believe that all revelation, including in the latter-days, is provided to point us back to God, to administer His Kingdom, and that our apostles and prophets are called to be special witnesses of Christ. I still do not see the purpose in your citing Hebrews 1:1-2 if you accept that there were prophets called (even by Jesus Himself) after Jesus, and that revelation had to continue after Christ if the New Testament writings and experiences were to occur. This is why traditional Christians typically say that [public] revelation ended after the death of the last apostle, and not after Jesus. From what I see, there is no Biblical basis for the belief that “public revelation” (a construct that not all Christians accept) ended after Jesus or the death of the last apostle, and it is instead based on extrapolations and reasonings.

 

[zerinus]

When a Jew denies his/her God, religion, or cultural heritage, he/she is no longer considered a Jew. This is the “lost” Jew.

You are inventing your own religion. According to the Bible, there were ten tribes of Israel who were taken captive by the Assyrians, and removed from their homeland into exile, and were lost to recorded history. That is what is meant by the Lost Tribes. Feel free to invent your own religion if you like, but don’t expect other people to believe in it.