J
Javl
Guest
You’re welcome, and thanks to you too, at least we agree to disagree. The question now is which of us has the truth?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The word has to get out to the Mormon women that they will not go to hell or be punished by God for wanting to know about Mary because that desire to know about her, and there are Mormon women out there…is a work of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is the incarnate spouse of the Mother of Jesus and He is calling them to know more about Christ.
That is, because the more we know about Christ, the more we know about Him. And the more we know about Christ, the more we know how much He loves us.
The Lord Jesus wants to share the knowledge of His mother to Mormon women.
The Holy Spirit is the incarnate spouse of the Mother of Jesus and He is calling them to know more about Christ.
That is, because the more we know about Christ, the more we know about Him. And the more we know about Christ, the more we know how much He loves us.
The Lord Jesus wants to share the knowledge of His mother to Mormon women.
F
flyonthewall
Guest
Just out of curiosity, what did Jesus teach us about His mother during His ministry?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
First she is His mother. This has tremendous implications. And it is also the cause of due veneration to her.
Without Mary, we would not have Christ, and without Christ, there would be no ‘contact’ from the Divine to human, except in spirit. Christ came with His body and blood, of Mary, to nourish us in God and to partake in the divine life.
Not only this, but this devotion brings in the feminine dimension of faith bearing light to a true human being who lived in perfect obedience to God. We can never be like Mary because she was created in a different constitution than us. But she is our greatest companion in learning God’s will, in learning to have and grow in a gentle spirit, to help us with pride – that ‘dies 4 hours after the body dies’.
Just as there is the reality of living in Christ and acknowledging all the graces of new vision of life around us, Mary through her intimacy and giving of self to Christ for his human life, she as well brings her dimension of faith and shares it with us.
So you shouldn’t have too much to worry about if I start praying for the Mormon women to have the freedom to learn more about her.
Without Mary, we would not have Christ, and without Christ, there would be no ‘contact’ from the Divine to human, except in spirit. Christ came with His body and blood, of Mary, to nourish us in God and to partake in the divine life.
Not only this, but this devotion brings in the feminine dimension of faith bearing light to a true human being who lived in perfect obedience to God. We can never be like Mary because she was created in a different constitution than us. But she is our greatest companion in learning God’s will, in learning to have and grow in a gentle spirit, to help us with pride – that ‘dies 4 hours after the body dies’.
Just as there is the reality of living in Christ and acknowledging all the graces of new vision of life around us, Mary through her intimacy and giving of self to Christ for his human life, she as well brings her dimension of faith and shares it with us.
So you shouldn’t have too much to worry about if I start praying for the Mormon women to have the freedom to learn more about her.
Z
zerinus
Guest
I thought you said you knew. Now you appear not to be so sure!
F
flyonthewall
Guest
Can you show me where in the scriptures Jesus taught this?
J
Javl
Guest
Oh, I do know. The Catholic Church has it, as it has for the past 2000 years. I’m just questioning you since you claim the LDS has it. Shalom.I thought you said you knew. Now you appear not to be so sure!
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Flyonthewall…
First of all, it has been taught in Mormonism that the wife goes to heaven through the husband’s consent. That implies an awful lot on the part of the man. Plus you believe in some heavenly mother…where is that in Scripture? Your religion venerates and exalts Joseph Smith but has only a brief reference to Mary, the Blessed Mother…why is that???
Mary is the Mother of Christ…she gave Him, the Savior of the world, His body and blood.
Now just stopping here…so Mormons have no regard for her except she had a big job?
There was a song by Peggy Lee out,…another woman…‘Is that all there is?..is that all there is?’…sounds like man control. Where does it say in Scripture Mormon men have the control over women compared to other faiths? Why does Mormonism venerate a vague heavenly mother but not Christ’s? Mormon heavenly mother is not mentioned in Scripture.
First of all, it has been taught in Mormonism that the wife goes to heaven through the husband’s consent. That implies an awful lot on the part of the man. Plus you believe in some heavenly mother…where is that in Scripture? Your religion venerates and exalts Joseph Smith but has only a brief reference to Mary, the Blessed Mother…why is that???
Mary is the Mother of Christ…she gave Him, the Savior of the world, His body and blood.
Now just stopping here…so Mormons have no regard for her except she had a big job?
There was a song by Peggy Lee out,…another woman…‘Is that all there is?..is that all there is?’…sounds like man control. Where does it say in Scripture Mormon men have the control over women compared to other faiths? Why does Mormonism venerate a vague heavenly mother but not Christ’s? Mormon heavenly mother is not mentioned in Scripture.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
What struck me, in my conversion to Catholicism, was brought on by a homily. It was on the Feast of the Holy Family, and one of the scripture readings was where Paul says:
21 Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. 24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her 26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church. 33 In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband.
At the time I had figured out that my education regarding God, scripture and religion had to start all over, clean, like I had never heard of anything before.
But I was sitting there thinking, in my Mormon upbringing it was without a doubt taught that this scripture meant the wife was subordinate to the husband, in a hierarchical sort of fashion.
I didn’t know what Catholics thought of this verse, and was thinking I would look it up when I got home, but I didn’t need to. The priest explained that the bond between Christ and the Church is Himself, given in unconditional love, and this is what the Church is subordinate to…God’s unconditional giving of Himself, which is God’s Love.
So it is that a husband is said he should love his wife, as Christ loves the Church. The wife is subordinate to the husband in the same fashion, which, if you stop and think about it, is a pretty astounding way to view marriage.
It was one of the signs for me that I had found God’s Church. There are layers of meaning in this scripture that Mormons completely ignore, starting with Jesus Christ who loves the Church as a husband loves his wife.
It is difficult for me to see how Mormons can explain away this teaching, this reality, and claim an apostasy. This scripture alone reveals how far in error that idea is.
Peace.
21 Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. 24 As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her 26 to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, 27 that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church. 33 In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband.
At the time I had figured out that my education regarding God, scripture and religion had to start all over, clean, like I had never heard of anything before.
But I was sitting there thinking, in my Mormon upbringing it was without a doubt taught that this scripture meant the wife was subordinate to the husband, in a hierarchical sort of fashion.
I didn’t know what Catholics thought of this verse, and was thinking I would look it up when I got home, but I didn’t need to. The priest explained that the bond between Christ and the Church is Himself, given in unconditional love, and this is what the Church is subordinate to…God’s unconditional giving of Himself, which is God’s Love.
So it is that a husband is said he should love his wife, as Christ loves the Church. The wife is subordinate to the husband in the same fashion, which, if you stop and think about it, is a pretty astounding way to view marriage.
It was one of the signs for me that I had found God’s Church. There are layers of meaning in this scripture that Mormons completely ignore, starting with Jesus Christ who loves the Church as a husband loves his wife.
It is difficult for me to see how Mormons can explain away this teaching, this reality, and claim an apostasy. This scripture alone reveals how far in error that idea is.
Peace.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
There was no apostasy. Rebecca, read through 2 Peter 2: 1-21. He is preparing for them to go on after his departure…that he was bestowed and chosen to be one of Christ’s witnesses, that we are to avoid believing in myths, and we are not to personally interpret Sacred Scripture.
There is only but one Heavenly Mother and that is Christ’s mother. Without her we would not have Christ.
And men owe women respect, not for what a woman can do for a man, but that she has her dignity and reason to being found in God’s love for her that He gave her Christ.
Christ is who we submit to in a Catholic marriage, and yes, it is a total giving of self to the other, not domination and control to the point a woman fears damnation by her husband’s choosing, like he is some kind of man god condemning because she didn’t do this or that at his pleasing. Now that I am aware of various Mormon splinter groups, I assume there are those who do not believe men have such control.
And I saw the story last night on the great Mormon…Reid Nibley who loved his wife very much. But no Mormon man or any man determines whether or not a woman is worthy of heaven.
Our self esteem, our worth is based on God’s love for us through His son. Jesus is the only one Who judges us, and His mercy far exceeds all the sins ever and will be committed in the world.
There is only but one Heavenly Mother and that is Christ’s mother. Without her we would not have Christ.
And men owe women respect, not for what a woman can do for a man, but that she has her dignity and reason to being found in God’s love for her that He gave her Christ.
Christ is who we submit to in a Catholic marriage, and yes, it is a total giving of self to the other, not domination and control to the point a woman fears damnation by her husband’s choosing, like he is some kind of man god condemning because she didn’t do this or that at his pleasing. Now that I am aware of various Mormon splinter groups, I assume there are those who do not believe men have such control.
And I saw the story last night on the great Mormon…Reid Nibley who loved his wife very much. But no Mormon man or any man determines whether or not a woman is worthy of heaven.
Our self esteem, our worth is based on God’s love for us through His son. Jesus is the only one Who judges us, and His mercy far exceeds all the sins ever and will be committed in the world.
F
flyonthewall
Guest
Can you point me to this teaching? I’ll save you the trouble…it doesn’t exist.
It’s not, that is from revelation.
We revere Joseph Smith, as we do all the prophets. We also recognize Mary as the Woman of Women. Highly favored of the Lord, and blessed among women, Mother of Jesus Christ. Exactly what the scriptures say of her.
No regard for her? You are making things up. We hold her in high regard and recognize her exactly how the scriptures describe her.
Why do you make things up and attribute them to us? No where in our teachings do we say that men have control over women.
You say we venerate our Heavenly Mother but not Christ’s…can you verify that statement? So far your statements on how we view Mary are just not true.
I have asked you what Jesus taught about His mother during His ministry, and so far you have only stated your beliefs. Please show me what Jesus taught about His mother.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
LDS Apostle Erastus Snow preached the following on Sunday, Oct. 4, 1857: Do the women, when they pray, remember their husbands?.. Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? “What!—my husband to be my lord?” I ask, ** Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him?** Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom [during the temple ceremony] ** without the aid of your husband**. If you did, it was because your husband was away, and some one had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 291)
B
BYUChemAlum
Guest
A man will not be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom without his wife, and a woman will not be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom without her husband.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
I heard the joke plenty of times, between Mormon spouses, where the husband jokes he isn’t going to call her name.
So, joke that it was, it was grounded in what Mormons believe…the husband must call his wife by her secret temple name. She doesn’t even know what his secret name is, so, if he isn’t calling, she has no name to go searching by now, does she.
Other than that, your response is a diversion, which doesn’t address at all what one of your “apostles” taught. But, can only be answered once again with:
We are reliant on Christ, not our spouses.
One of these days that will get through to someone.
B
BYUChemAlum
Guest
Actually, it completely addresses what our apostle stated. Latter-day Saints believe that for someone to receive eternal life, also known as “exaltation”, one must, among other things, be sealed to their spouse. So, a man cannot be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom without his wife, and a woman cannot be exalted in the Celestial Kingdom without her husband. What our apostle stated jives completely with that, as well as Ephesians 5:23 (which you already referred to earlier) and 1 Corinthians 11:3, Genesis 3:16, etc.
Members of the restored Church of Jesus Christ know that eternal life only comes through accepting the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We believe that one must have complete faith in Him, and it is only through Him that we can be exalted. It is not an “either, or” situation where one must choose between their spouse and Christ, but a situation where “neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord” (1 Corinthians 11:11).
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
So you agree with what your apostle said. Nice to know things haven’t changed.
Taking one scripture out of context doesn’t support your position. No where does the Bible teach that one has to be married in order to live with God. That is an invention of Joseph Smith, who was a bigamist and wrote his own laws.
The scripture you have sited points to Genesis, where it is easy to see how God ordered marriage. One man and one woman. It is a description of marriage, and says nothing about heaven.
The Mormon claim is explicit, only those who are married live with God, that makes one reliant on a spouse for heaven.
We are reliant on Jesus Christ, and no other. He is the Way.
B
BYUChemAlum
Guest
The scriptures cited comport quite nicely with what our apostle stated.
Joseph Smith, as prophets in biblical times, received revelations from God, and since Latter-day Saints know that God’s revelations to man are not just found in the Bible, we are okay with the fact that something might not be found in the Bible or be explicitly there. We are not Bible-only, since such an idea isn’t found in the Bible anyway. But it is amusing when a Catholic tries to use a Bible-only argument, when Catholics are not sola scriptura in the first place.
Also, LDS do not believe that one must be married to live with God. One must be eternally married to receive exaltation, however exaltation and living with God are not mutually exclusive.
The scriptures cited were in reference to the Ephesians verses previously mentioned, and support the “lordship” of the husband over the wife.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
No, you only read what you want. I’m thinking you must be male.
But, that is that. There are good reasons I left Mormonism, and the beginnings were this, exactly. Women are caged, spiritually and psychologically. You only confirm that this is till the case, and it still creeps me out to no end. I’m glad I got out, and more than glad that God brought me Home.
But, that is that. There are good reasons I left Mormonism, and the beginnings were this, exactly. Women are caged, spiritually and psychologically. You only confirm that this is till the case, and it still creeps me out to no end. I’m glad I got out, and more than glad that God brought me Home.
B
BYUChemAlum
Guest
Thank you for not addressing the post.
R
RebeccaJ
Guest
I don’t think you would want to here what I think of your post. It is warped, beyond belief, and plain and simply, an evil twisting. Which, isn’t all that unusual for Mormon “stuff”, just this particular subject is more personal than most, so, you can take you religion and stuff it. It certainly is not of God.
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