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drac16
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That’s what I was getting at. I was exploring the LDS’ view of the fall of man.
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Tarquin
Guest
Intriguing . Ironically, if misery must be experienced in order to feel joy, then living with God in the pre-existence had to include a miserable childhood in his presence, in order to feel joy later (out of his presence!?). :s
I don’t know what you mean by “simple.” Perhaps the number of words in the question. Certainly not the concepts themselves. First, I am not required to answer your questions. Second, if I do respond to a post, it will come in my own good time, not at someone’s beck and call.
No, the issue here is “if God wants us to sin so we can experience sadness and therefore put joy into context, wouldn’t that mean we should seek out the most heinous sins possible to have the greatest understanding of joy?” and “I would like to know how other church members feel about this as well as if my logic makes sense.” (Yes, that makes sense, but it is not true because the *premise *is *not *true.)
*Well then, does God want us to experience sin so we can experience sadness so that we can experience joy? *If so, will we experience more joy if we experience greater sadness (by sinning more greatly)? What wasn’t asked was, “What does ‘joy’ have to do with it?” Should that be our goal, rather than, for example, greater righteousness even if we feel less “joy”?”
I do not know that. I suspect there is no commandment and probably no “law” that has not at some point been violated by someone who just heard that commandment or “law”. Not that it matters.
It may be enough to be told about goodness and evil, with or without being warned of their consequences, and yet that in itself *not *be sufficient to force people to do what is right. It may be, for example, that repentance is a valued and even necessary part of every life. One cannot escape sin if one’s definition of sin includes, for example, being selfish, or not striving with all our heart, mind, and soul to do God’s will. By nature people are limited in will, desire, capacities and abilities. By nature, these limitations will prevent them from breaking the bounds of their natural, mortal, human limitations. We may call that “sin,” and we may feel a need to repent; if so, I suspect God virtually expects such behavior of us, and has arranged that - despite our limitations in this mortal existence - we will be granted what we need in the Next Life to better fulfill our purpose for living. Grace, forgiveness, love outweighs our spiritual immaturity. (I am not saying this as well as I would like; I hope the gist of it comes across okay.)
Naturally you would think that, since you know my thoughts better than I do myself. :s And of course you would think I do not know what it means to know good from evil, since again you know me so much better than I do. :s
Would it be acceptable to depersonalize this? If *one *acknowledges we all commit sin, than why would *one *sin when *one *has been taught otherwise? This seems somewhat nonsensical. It is not logical to assume that if one is taught not to sin, that would be sufficient to persuade them never to sin. People can be taught how to study hard and get high marks and school, and yet loaf and fail. People can be taught how to plan a healthy diet, and yet eat candy and donuts instead. People can be taught how to serve others, and yet manipulate others for their own selfish advantage. Likewise, people can be taught what sin is, and what good deeds are, and yet still sin and commit bad deeds. It takes more than knowing what sin is and its consequences, in order to avoid it. After all, Adam knew what sin was and its consequences, and yet he sinned. Perhaps God failed to teach him correctly? Perhaps God did not put enough effort into the task?
Perhaps we sin because we are imperfect and not directly connected with God 100% of the time. We can separate from our imperfections to a degree, and we can strengthen our connection with God, but we are still encumbered with a distracting mortal body whose desires are, as they should be, concerned more with the things of this world. When we leave this body, we will have a body or form that will not need to care for itself in the way that our physical body needs to care for itself, making sure it gets fed, it gets rest, it gets this and that and the other; then, in that next world, we can give our full, undivided devotion to God even while managing the affairs of our spiritual lives there, whatever that may entail.
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Janderich
Guest
God does not want us to sin, but he does want us to experience the consequences of our choices. There is nothing strange in this. It is the same thing parents must learn with their children. They want to protect them and make them happy but at some point they learn that shielding them from choices and attendant consequences will not help them to grow and so they let them be exposed to the full weight of their choices.
Does God want people who do right for righteousness sake alone? I submit that God wants people of a particular sort. That he wants them to have a certain character (see C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Book 3, “The Cardinal Virtues”). And ultimately when they obtain that character then they will experience joy no matter what circumstances they are presented with. Not a light meaningless happiness, but a real joy, deep and abiding. This is how Christ lived his life. This is why he said, “my yoke is easy and my burden light” (Matt 11:30).
I think I understand your point but would ask for clarification before commenting.
If you agree that being taught something is not the same as actually doing it then you may now see the path God himself must trod with his children. He wants individuals who are free to make decisions and choices, but all the mental teaching in the universe will not bring it about. The only way for his children to learn all they need to know, is to allow them to experience the consequences of doing wrong and the joy of doing right for themselves.
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Horton
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Thank you Kimg. I’m with you. Never did I feel joy after committing a mortal sin. Just shame, regret, frustration. Of course, once I went to confession I felt better, but the joy was not from the commitment of the sin, but the mercy of our Lord.
Question for any LDS. I think we can agree young children experience joy abundantly. What sins are they committing to be so joyful?
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Janderich
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First, we have said over and over again that sin does not bring joy. I’m not sure why you continue to say that is our belief. In fact the Book of Mormon plainly states the following, “Behold I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness” (Alma 41:10). Do you believe me when I say that we believe sin does not bring joy? If not, then answering further questions is pointless for you are not seeking to understand but to attack.
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kimg901
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I may be wrong but having read the posts here you said that we couldn’t have joy without sin. But now in your recent post you say the opposite. Did I read something wrong?
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Horton
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No, you read it correctly. It’s just ever-changing LDS theology
Since it has been pointed out so clearly that this belief can’t hold up, suddenly it’s “that’s not what we believe”.
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Janderich
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I believe you read wrong. Let me know what post you are referring to.
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Horton
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Janderich
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There is nothing in my above statement that indicates we must sin in order to understand joy. To believe such would be to twist my words.
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kimg901
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Horton posted what I wanted to. So what about that passage does not make one think you aren’t twisting words? When I read it I come to understand it that one cannot know joy without sinning first.
President Gordon B. Hinckley, responding to a question regarding whether Latter-day Saints believe in the “traditional Christ,” stated:
No I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the dispensation of the fullness of times.
How do explain this statement? I thought Jesus was never changing?
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gazelam
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President Hinckley is referring to the traditional orthodox Christian beliefs that are not found in the Bible, such as, Jesus being consubstantial (i.e., of the same substance or essence) with the Father. That belief is not taught in the Bible and is a man made theological addition. In the LDS view what has been revealed in modern times about Christ does not contradict anything revealed anciently about Him.
As far as Jesus being never changing, is seems to me anyway that His birth, growing up, death, and resurrection are all changes. Perhaps others see this differently. I hope this helps…
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kimg901
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Horton
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The Catholic Church relies on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium for the truth of her teachings. Not everything is in the bible and that is made clear in the bible. Jesus sends out the apostles to teach what He had taught them. This is where your argument falls apart. You claim modern revelation (JS/LDS revelation) of Jesus does not contradict anything revealed anciently, but it does. The bible was compiled well after the death of Jesus (by the Catholic Church) so He wasn’t there to edit it, although it is divinely inspired. It is clear in the gospels Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ, the Son of God, Emmanuel, which means God with us, or any other name you want to give Him. Jesus is God. It’s clear in the rest of the NT who Jesus really is.
But the LDS did change the view of Jesus from the ancient to the modern. You, the LDS, claim Jesus was only human, a man among many. That is not how Jesus is referred to in biblical texts.
As far as the statement of Jesus never changing, maybe you should take that one up with Hinkely. After all he’s the one who made the initial claim.
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lax16
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from Mormon.org:
mormon.org/beliefs/plan-of-salvation
Adam and Eve Gave Us the Gift of Choice
You may know the story of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, but did you know it was they who paved the way for the rest of us to come to earth, make choices, and become like our Heavenly Father?
**As God’s first children on earth, Adam and Eve were living in their garden paradise. They didn’t feel any sorrow or pain, which might seem nice, except that without it, they also couldn’t feel joy. **They didn’t remember their pre-earth life. If they hadn’t eaten the forbidden fruit, they would have lived like that forever and never had children. Mankind never would have been born or the world populated.
Gift of Choice - Plan of Salvation
As we know, Adam and Eve succumbed to Satan’s temptations to eat the fruit and disobeyed God who had commanded them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. As a consequence, they were separated from God’s presence physically and spiritually—an event we refer to as the Fall. They became mortal—just as we are—subject to sin, disease, all types of suffering, and ultimately death. But it wasn’t all bad because they could now feel great joy. “Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.” (2 Nephi 2:25) But as they were obedient to the Gospel of Jesus Christ Adam and Eve were able to receive God’s inspiration, revelation, and even visits from heavenly messengers.
Once out of the garden, they were able to progress and learn to become more like our Heavenly Father. In addition, they could have children, which meant the rest of God’s spirit children (all of us) could come to Earth, experience physical bodies, and be proven by our daily choices. Just like Adam and Eve, there are consequences to all our choices, good or bad. Lasting happiness and progression come from choosing to do what God wants us to do. The key word is “choosing.” Generally God does not step in and prevent us from making the poor choices Satan tempts us to make. He will, however, offer his love, divine guidance, and warnings when we open our heart to Him.
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antihippy79
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Wow. That pretty much seals it. LDS believe you must know sin in order to know joy. That is definately NOT Christian theology.
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jane_doe
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Again, Mormon theology is NOT that you have know sin to know you. Rather, it is that you have to know misery. Go back to my #6 post.
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Horton
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According to the post by lax, LDS theology, from a Mormon site, yes one must sin to know joy. What do you think the fall was about if not sinnng against God?
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lax16
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Isn’t disobeying God the same as sinning?
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Padres1969
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:yup:
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