LDS Belief on the Need to Sin In Order Understand Joy

[Horton]

That would be ufortunate, but not surprising.

For many Mormons, since the use of reason is not encouraged, they will default to their testimonies and thus making their points are limited.

In Mormo theology, Eve sinned in order for the “Plan of Salvation” to unfold.

She and Adam were given two commandments, and were forced to decide which one they would be disobedient in.

What parent does that to their kids?
Whatta mixed message.
In order for salvation to become a realtiy, sin had to occur. That is the gist of their plan.

It’s just illogical, mind boggling really. I still believe it is the nature of the LDS faith to put a human understanding of the work of God while we Catholics are ok with the mystery of faith.

 

[Brian_Kerzetski]

Good morning and glory to Jesus Christ!

Original poster here. While my life responsibilities make it tough to be active on the forum, I appreciate the discussion on this topic as it has been extremely enlightening for me.

The way I see it there are two ways to look at this:

1) Adam and Eve’s transgression in the garden was a good and necessary to God’s plan.

If it was a good and necessary, why did God deceive them? If God is willing to lie so that his plan will be carried out, how could we ever put our full trust in him? As a side question, if their transgression was a good, why where they expelled from the garden?

2) Adam and Eve’s transgression in the garden was an evil, but necessary to God’s plan.

If God is perfectly good, how could he develop a plan that requires an evil act? To put it another way, how could a being that is purely good create or conceive of a necessary evil? As a side question, if an evil act to create a “greater good” was acceptable for God, why are we restricted from evil acts? What if they are necessary to further his plan?

Thank you all for your contributions and God bless.

 

[Horton]

Good morning and glory to Jesus Christ!

Original poster here. While my life responsibilities make it tough to be active on the forum, I appreciate the discussion on this topic as it has been extremely enlightening for me.

The way I see it there are two ways to look at this:

1) Adam and Eve’s transgression in the garden was a good and necessary to God’s plan.

If it was a good and necessary, why did God deceive them? If God is willing to lie so that his plan will be carried out, how could we ever put our full trust in him? As a side question, if their transgression was a good, why where they expelled from the garden?

2) Adam and Eve’s transgression in the garden was an evil, but necessary to God’s plan.

If God is perfectly good, how could he develop a plan that requires an evil act? To put it another way, how could a being that is purely good create or conceive of a necessary evil? As a side question, if an evil act to create a “greater good” was acceptable for God, why are we restricted from evil acts? What if they are necessary to further his plan?

Thank you all for your contributions and God bless.

Two words - free will. In their effort to have an human explanation for everything the LDS often forget God never intended mankind to know all, to be able to explain everything, to put human terms on all of His creation.

God could have created a world where there is no evil, no sin, no misery but He wants us to CHOOSE Him, to love Him, to want Him. God wants us to have free will. The fall of Adam & Eve makes no sense otherwise.

 

[Padres1969]

I would like to think we could have a religious discussion without one or another feeling disrespected. I am willing to continue to try.

What do you think of what Mormon Apostle Russell Ballard says about Catholics?

tubechop.com/watch/7051576

Considering Catholics and other Christian denominations don’t hold that Mormon baptism is valid, and by extension that Mormonism isn’t really Christianity… it’s not really surprising that Mormons would see Catholics in the same light. I mean they don’t accept other Christian baptisms and see all of us as fooled by a great Apostasy, so his words while harsh fit right in with their teachings.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Considering Catholics and other Christian denominations don’t hold that Mormon baptism is valid, and by extension that Mormonism isn’t really Christianity… it’s not really surprising that Mormons would see Catholics in the same light. I mean they don’t accept other Christian baptisms and see all of us as fooled by a great Apostasy, so his words while harsh fit right in with their teachings.

Do the leaders in your church make a point, when addressing the youth in the church, to tell them that specific religions are lacking? I can’t say that growing up anyone ever went to “this is what’s wrong with_____.”

 

[Padres1969]

Do the leaders in your church make a point, when addressing the youth in the church, to tell them that specific religions are lacking? I can’t say that growing up anyone ever went to “this is what’s wrong with_____.”

No. If he was addressing youth in that clip in that manner that’s definitely unfortunate. I didn’t notice much about his audience given the limited scope of the clip.

 

[iepuras]

No. If he was addressing youth in that clip in that manner that’s definitely unfortunate. I didn’t notice much about his audience given the limited scope of the clip.

I believe the majority of the audience are LDS missionaries.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I believe the majority of the audience are LDS missionaries.

I thought it was a youth fireside.

 

[rmcmullan]

I can’t tell if you all are being purposefully misunderstanding of the LDS teaching or just aren’t trying. There is an important link between the Tree of Life vs the Tree of Knowledge and the Savior’s atonement in the LDS theology and I don’t think you’ll ever get there unless you try a little harder to understand it. Then maybe you can address the Joy vs Misery teaching.

 

[Stephen168]

I can’t tell if you all are being purposefully misunderstanding of the LDS teaching or just aren’t trying.

You have used this excuse a few times in the past to avoid explaining Mormon Doctrine.

There is an important link between the Tree of Life vs the Tree of Knowledge and the Savior’s atonement in the LDS theology and I don’t think you’ll ever get there unless you try a little harder to understand it. Then maybe you can address the Joy vs Misery teaching.

Cool, Explain it to us.

 

[Brian_Kerzetski]

Hello rmcmullan,

I’m not sure who all you are referring to, but I am the one who asked the original question. As I have stated in a previous post, this is where I think I am in understanding. Please make any corrections you see fit:

1) Adam and Eve’s transgression in the garden was a good and necessary to God’s plan.

If it was a good and necessary, why did God deceive them? If God is willing to lie so that his plan will be carried out, how could we ever put our full trust in him? As a side question, if their transgression was a good, why where they expelled from the garden?

2) Adam and Eve’s transgression in the garden was an evil, but necessary to God’s plan.

If God is perfectly good, how could he develop a plan that requires an evil act? To put it another way, how could a being that is purely good create or conceive of a necessary evil? As a side question, if an evil act to create a “greater good” was acceptable for God, why are we restricted from evil acts? What if they are necessary to further his plan?

 

[rmcmullan]

Huh? What was the lie that God told to Adam and Eve?

Also, you ought to know that LDS take great care in calling it a transgression and not a sin. I see that your quotes are correct. Do you know why?

 

[Janderich]

1) Adam and Eve’s transgression in the garden was a good and necessary to God’s plan.

If it was a good and necessary, why did God deceive them? If God is willing to lie so that his plan will be carried out, how could we ever put our full trust in him? As a side question, if their transgression was a good, why where they expelled from the garden?

2) Adam and Eve’s transgression in the garden was an evil, but necessary to God’s plan.

If God is perfectly good, how could he develop a plan that requires an evil act? To put it another way, how could a being that is purely good create or conceive of a necessary evil? As a side question, if an evil act to create a “greater good” was acceptable for God, why are we restricted from evil acts? What if they are necessary to further his plan?

In regards to your item number 1: As LDS we believe God did not deceive Adam and Eve, rather he laid out the facts. Essentially he said, “If you want to stay here in the garden you must not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for with it will come death”. But he also allowed them to understand that their eyes would be opened if they ate of the fruit and they would learn to distinguish good from evil by their own experience.

God explained why he cast out Adam and Eve, “‘the man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.’ So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden…” (Gen 3:22-23 NIV). As part of their choice to experience good and evil they needed to be separated from God and exposed to difficulties. This was the only way for them to learn and grow so they would be fit candidates for eternal life. Having chosen death (spiritual and temporal) they now had to overcome it in order to live with God again. If we have free will then God can force no man to Heaven, they must earn the right to be there.

See Adam and Eve are to be something more than they were. Redemption from the fall does not simply bring us back to our un-fallen state. C.S. Lewis said it so well:

God is not merely mending, not simply restoring a status quo. Redeemed humanity is to be something more glorious than unfallen humanity would have been, more glorious than any unfallen race now is (if at this moment the night sky conceals any such). (Miracles)

 

[Stephen168]

Good morning and glory to Jesus Christ!

Original poster here. While my life responsibilities make it tough to be active on the forum, I appreciate the discussion on this topic as it has been extremely enlightening for me.

The way I see it there are two ways to look at this:

1) Adam and Eve’s transgression in the garden was a good and necessary to God’s plan.

If it was a good and necessary, why did God deceive them? If God is willing to lie so that his plan will be carried out, how could we ever put our full trust in him? As a side question, if their transgression was a good, why where they expelled from the garden?

2) Adam and Eve’s transgression in the garden was an evil, but necessary to God’s plan.

If God is perfectly good, how could he develop a plan that requires an evil act? To put it another way, how could a being that is purely good create or conceive of a necessary evil? As a side question, if an evil act to create a “greater good” was acceptable for God, why are we restricted from evil acts? What if they are necessary to further his plan?

Thank you all for your contributions and God bless.

Here are a copy of posts from an old thread on the subject of the Mormon view on the fall and original sin. The first by a Mormon, the second by an ex-Mormon

I believe the fall was part of the plan. As it states in 1 Peter 1:18-20, Jesus was foreordained from before the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sin. Why would this be if it was not part of the plan?
The one thing that had to happen, was that the fall had to come by a choice, not by a command from God.
When placed in the garden, Adam and Eve had 2 commandments: Be fruitful and multiply, and Do not eat of the tree of knowledge.
We believe they could not have children in their paradisical state in the Garden. We do not know how long they were in the Garden but for whatever reason they had no children while there.
We believe they were waiting for more knowledge on what to do next.
Satan tempted Eve through the serpent, and she realized they needed more knowledge and thought one way was to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge as tempted. This was Eve’s choice.
After eating, she went to get Adam to eat of the fruit too.
Adam’s choice was to either remain in the Garden alone, because he knew Eve would be cast out, or stay with his wife that God had given him and commanded to be fruitful and multiply with.
Could Adam have made a diffrent choice? sure. What would be different?, I guess we will never know because he made the choice that he did.

There is a purpose for this mortality, it is a blessing and a curse. A curse, because of the sorrow, pain and temptation we experience here, but a blessing because it refines us an allows us to grow through the opposition that was introduce. Without opposition, there was realy no choices to be made. Without learning how to choose the right in the face of opposition, how can we learn to be good or righteous
The one thing that God states as a result of the fall is that man has become as one of us (God), to know good from evil.
Now that we can know good from evil, we need to choose between the two. Our choices make us the person we will be, in this life and the next.

That is the central paradox inLDS perception of the Fall. God places Adam and Eve into a no win situation. They are commanded to procreate, which they cannot do without knowledge. They are commanded not to eat of the tree of knowledge, without which they will not know how to procreate. If they do nothing they break the commandment to procreate.

Eve understood first that the commanment to procreate was more important, at least after having been persuaded to eat the fruit, and convinced Adam to join her… The LDS version also presents Adam’s choice to eat as a proactive decision based on awareness that if he did not, they could not procreate – though a proactive informed decision without knowledge of good and evil seems antithetical.

Mormonism differntiates sin from transgression. Sin is worse. Adam and Eve transgressed because they broke a commandment lacking a knowledge of right and wrong, and for choosing the least serious of two bad choices (not being able to procreate versus eating the fruit).

One reason I am explaining this so much is that LDS do not often realize, apart from original sin, how much their view of the fall differs from other Christians. LDS do not base these beliefs on the Bible, and really very little on references to the Fall in the Book of Mormon, though they lean heavily on its, “Adam fell that men might be, and men are that they might have joy.”. Their positions depend on Joseph Smith’s Transliterations of Bible passages, including as I recall the Book of Moses in the Pearl of Great Price, which they canonize as scripture. It ties in heavily with their Temple ordinances, including various details generally not discussed, but the basic story differs little from their published scripture and discourses of leaders.

They consider the story a very literal account. Something in the fruit literally produced a change in their perfectly created bodies. Had they been able to eat the fruit of the Tree of Life , they would have reduced the resdiual fatality from the the fruit of Knowledge, been returned to physical perfection, kept their new found knowledge, and hence have become like God – LDS leaders have written in magazines and presented in conferences that there was no death at all in the world before the Fall of Adam, and that the fall introduced death to everything.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Here are a copy of posts from an old thread on the subject of the Mormon view on the fall and original sin. The first by a Mormon, the second by an ex-Mormon

Excellent summary.

I recall LDS in my Sunday school classes, long ago, that eating the fruit changed the genetics of Adam and Eve.

 

[Brian_Kerzetski]

In regards to your item number 1: As LDS we believe God did not deceive Adam and Eve, rather he laid out the facts. Essentially he said, “If you want to stay here in the garden you must not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for with it will come death”. But he also allowed them to understand that their eyes would be opened if they ate of the fruit and they would learn to distinguish good from evil by their own experience.

So, was eating the fruit a good act?

 

[Horton]

So, was eating the fruit a good act?

So eight pages of discourse on this topic and here we are, right back at the start. Brian K, you’ve been a great sport with this thread but I don’t think you or any of us will more clarity on LDS theology. To internalize what they claim as truth means we have to put aside what we know to be truth and for most Christians that is very difficult to do.

 

[lax16]

So, was eating the fruit a good act?

And…

Did they disobey God’s command not to eat the fruit?

And…

Is breaking a commandment of God a sin?

 

[Horton]

And…

Did they disobey God’s command not to eat the fruit?

And…

Is breaking a commandment of God a sin?

:banghead: Round & round we go

 

[iepuras]

:banghead: Round & round we go

And when it will stop, no one knows!