LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?

[Tony888]

You already said a Mormon would lie just to get into the temple. Then you try to parrot me. I’ll believe you, but not the parrot.

What are you talking about?
Saying an RCC or LDS person has the ability to lie is not the same as saying they would lie.
Naturally I expect the Holy Spirit to reside within both parties and true confessions to be made.

 

[Tony888]

When did that start, since I have never seen any practice of public confession associated with the LDS Sacrament, unless this is a new practice, I must assume you mean reflecting on what sins Jesus has suffered for to yourself before partaking – a personal internal confession to God. If you can do that, why do serious sins need confession to a Bishop? Does God only have the ears to hear or the power to forgive lesser sins, without help from man?

Peter, repentance is a private matter, not a public confession with LDS.
We are taught to repent when the need or situation arises throughout the week.
We are taught to repent our sins each Sunday, before receiving the Sacraments.

As with RCC, I expect repentance before communion is to prepare us to open us to receiving the spirit and the messages of the service.

 

[Tony888]

It is not about going to another parish. It is about the difference in the relationship of the role of confession. In Mormonism it involves the Bishop’s responsibility as a judge over his Ward, his authority over the people. The confession in Mormonism is a police action, essentially. Priests do not have that kind of authority over their parishes because they do not sit as judges. They have authority over the Eucharistic integrity, and that is what they do for their members. Everything focuses on the Eucharist.

Even some general conference addresses have accounts of people who lied on temple recommends, or went to the temple after doing something that would have violated the temple recommend.

Peter, the Bishop doesn’t engage in the weekly act of repentance/confession before receiving the sacraments. It’s a private matter that should only involve the police when man made laws are broken.

It is fair to compare LDS and RCC weekly practices around receiving the sacraments

It’s comparing apples and oranges to contrast LDS temple visits with RCC weekly sacraments.

 

[Stephen168]

A temple recommend can be revoked at any time during the year. If you commit an offence rendering you not temple worhty, seek reconciliation and tell your appropriate LDS authority, you lose your recommend. If you get caught doing something , you lose your recommend. If in titihing settlement you do not pay a full titihe, I do not know itf that voids a recommend immediately.

In a similar fashion, aren’t ther certain conditions where a Catholic should not partake of communion until they are again worthy?

It’s comparing apples and oranges to contrast LDS temple visits with RCC weekly sacraments.

yet you were the first to try and make that comparison. You enjoyed it until the weakness of Mormonism was revealed

 

[TheExorcist]

The confession in Mormonism is a police action, essentially.

Definitely right about that. I don’t have the privilege of being Catholic right now but it’s comforting they call it the sacrament of reconciliation. That implies a bringing together the sinner and Christ. In the LDS church these things always felt so punitive.

 

[Tony888]

yet you were the first to try and make that comparison. You enjoyed it until the weakness of Mormonism was revealed

No stephen,
being worthy is a weekly issue for LDS, they must decide before taking the sacrament.** It is apples to apples with RCC communion. ** Aren’t there conditions when an RCC should not take communion?

However, comparing LDS temple visits with RCC communioun is comparing apples and oranges.

God be with you

 

[Stephen168]

No stephen,
being worthy is a weekly issue for LDS, they must decide before taking the sacrament.** It is apples to apples with RCC communion. ** Aren’t there conditions when an RCC should not take communion?

However, comparing LDS temple visits with RCC communioun is comparing apples and oranges.

God be with you

Yes, Tony. I’ve shown everyone by quoting you that you were the first to make the comparison. And when we follow the thread it leads to you saying how Mormons lie to be able to go into a building and at that point you backed away from your comparison calling it apples and oranges. You and Peter John have provided great insight into the Mormon confession and temple recommend process. I can see why you are embarrassed by it.

 

[Peter_John]

… comparing LDS temple visits with RCC communioun is comparing apples and oranges …

This statement has tremendous personal pertinence for me because the apples to apples comparison it is counts among the earliest recognitions in my conversion to Catholicism. The temple ordinances are the most sacred part of Mormonism. The Eucharist is the most sacred part of Catholicism. Mormons do not want to risk others mocking their most sacred ordinances, allegedly for the protection of those who do not understand them, so they are shut away from the masses. Catholicism, on the other hand, consider the body and blood of Christ so important that all need to know it is there. This is a change through tradition based revelation. In the early centuries mass was open only to believers. With the end of general persecutions, and the growing general acceptance of Christianity, there was no need to protect it any more.

We need not fear that others mock how foolish our Eucharistic beliefs (like transubstantiation) or practices may seem, and we embrace being considered foolish if that is the cost of accepting it. The mockery of others cannot hurt the Eucharist, and experiencing it can lead to conversion. We just have to limit actually partaking of it until after baptism.

There is nothing more sacred than the Holy Spirit timelessly uniting the Lord’s Table in any Mass given into the same One Feast with all other masses through time and space, into part of that same feast in the upper room, and Christ’s own self-sacrifice on the Cross.

The Eucharist is not just the transformation of the host and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ. It is a sacrament that exists aprt from time and space. Every Mass is literally, with every other Mass, part of that first Eucharisitic feast, with all that have taken it ever, anywhere or anytime, approaching that same original table in the Upper Room. At the same time, we all approach the foot of the same Cross on Calvary. Some may take it as a symbol or figurative, but the dogma is essentially what I express – and more important to myself, that was myexperience before I could even partake of it, and before anyone taught me the dogma…

I know nothing that sacred in Mormonism, yet Catholics put it right out on every street corner for any to embrace, mock, or disregard as they see fit. Jesus cannot reach the sinners he must heal if he keeps his living flesh locked behind doors with golden seals.

 

[Peter_John]

being worthy is a weekly issue for LDS, they must decide before taking the sacrament.** It is apples to apples with RCC communion. **

On the other hand the LDS sacrament and the Eucharist ARE an Apples and Oranges comparison. The Eucharist is a sacrament of literalism. The LDS Sacrament is an ordinance of symbolism – and symbolism is strongly emphasized throughout Mormonism.

Quite interesting that in every culture bread and water symbolize a starvation diet at best, and most often prison food.

Jesus turned water into wine, and Joseph Smith turned it back again: Joseph Smith’s work does not restore the Savior’s work, but symbolically reverses it. Since he could try reversing it, it was present for attempted reversal, and there was nothing to restore in the first place.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter, the Bishop doesn’t engage in the weekly act of repentance/confession before receiving the sacraments. It’s a private matter that should only involve the police when man made laws are broken.

It is fair to compare LDS and RCC weekly practices around receiving the sacraments

It’s comparing apples and oranges to contrast LDS temple visits with RCC weekly sacraments.

I know the Bishop never used to do so, but so many things have changed in five years (teaching that man is co-eternal with God we are now told is no longer an LDS teaching, or that Lucifer was Jesus’ brother, [yet I have enough family still LDS to know that such claims are just PR, however much scripted apologetics deny the teachings]).

I have addressed the last two points elsewhere. I will agree it “fair to compare”, but there is no comparison. Comparing reveals apples and oranges.

You misunderstand when I write “police action”. I use police as a verb, not a noun. It does not mean involving the civil authorities, it means the purpose of confessing to the Bishop in Mormonism is so that he can “police (verb)” the congregation. For example, if you confess to your Bishop (or Stake President as may be required) he will ask if your sin involved any other LDS. If they did you will be expected to give names, and if those you name are not under the authority of the official to whom you speak, he will also ask where they are from. Then he will contact their appropriate leadership with the information.

For serious sins the sinner, not the sin, is treated as a disease that needs amputation to prevent infecting the congregation.

The way you express your clarification of Bishp’s role in confession, I need to clarify something: When I learned to sing "I am a Child of God in Primary, the words still said, “Teach me all that I must know” instead of “Teach me all that I must do.” As a teenager I was chair of the testimony meeting committee for my stake’s first youth conference, a joint project with Ottawa, Ontario Stake. I served my mission in Brazil, 1982-1983, and in a Stake conference in Araraquara I translated for Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, late of the Council of the Twelve, who was a Seventy at the time. I know and thoroughly understand Mormonism.

You do make it clear that the pre-sacrament confession referred to is a personal and silent confession before God. That alone is change in emphasis from when I grew up, and we were simply told we were supposed to reflect on Christ’s sacrifice. I still want to know why if God has power to forgive the little sins directly, he lacks power to forgive the big ones without the Bishop?

In Catholicism reconciliation is not submission to judgment, but a vehicle for forgiveness, and the longer and more frequently you attend, the more smaller things weigh on your conscience, even as big things get left behind.`

 

[Telstar]

"Tony888:

Stephen168:

yet you were the first to try and make that comparison. You enjoyed it until the weakness of Mormonism was revealed

No stephen,
being worthy is a weekly issue for LDS, they must decide before taking the sacrament. It is apples to apples with RCC communion. Aren’t there conditions when an RCC should not take communion?

However, comparing LDS temple visits with RCC communioun is comparing apples and oranges.

God be with you

This statement has tremendous personal pertinence for me because the apples to apples comparison it is counts among the earliest recognitions in my conversion to Catholicism. The temple ordinances are the most sacred part of Mormonism. The Eucharist is the most sacred part of Catholicism. Mormons do not want to risk others mocking their most sacred ordinances, allegedly for the protection of those who do not understand them, so they are shut away from the masses. Catholicism, on the other hand, consider the body and blood of Christ so important that all need to know it is there. This is a change through tradition based revelation. In the early centuries mass was open only to believers. With the end of general persecutions, and the growing general acceptance of Christianity, there was no need to protect it any more.

We need not fear that others mock how foolish our Eucharistic beliefs (like transubstantiation) or practices may seem, and we embrace being considered foolish if that is the cost of accepting it. The mockery of others cannot hurt the Eucharist, and experiencing it can lead to conversion. We just have to limit actually partaking of it until after baptism.

There is nothing more sacred than the Holy Spirit timelessly uniting the Lord’s Table in any Mass given into the same One Feast with all other masses through time and space, into part of that same feast in the upper room, and Christ’s own self-sacrifice on the Cross.

The Eucharist is not just the transformation of the host and wine into the literal body and blood of Christ. It is a sacrament that exists aprt from time and space. Every Mass is literally, with every other Mass, part of that first Eucharisitic feast, with all that have taken it ever, anywhere or anytime, approaching that same original table in the Upper Room. At the same time, we all approach the foot of the same Cross on Calvary. Some may take it as a symbol or figurative, but the dogma is essentially what I express – and more important to myself, that was myexperience before I could even partake of it, and before anyone taught me the dogma…

I know nothing that sacred in Mormonism, yet Catholics put it right out on every street corner for any to embrace, mock, or disregard as they see fit. Jesus cannot reach the sinners he must heal if he keeps his living flesh locked behind doors with golden seals.

On the other hand the LDS sacrament and the Eucharist ARE an Apples and Oranges comparison. The Eucharist is a sacrament of literalism. The LDS Sacrament is an ordinance of symbolism – and symbolism is strongly emphasized throughout Mormonism.

Quite interesting that in every culture bread and water symbolize a starvation diet at best, and most often prison food.

Jesus turned water into wine, and Joseph Smith turned it back again: Joseph Smith’s work does not restore the Savior’s work, but symbolically reverses it. Since he could try reversing it, it was present for attempted reversal, and there was nothing to restore in the first place.

Good points, and very well stated, Peter John. I love reading your posts. It’s nice to have someone here that has personal experience on both sides of the aisle in order to translate the ‘jargon’ and give us an objective view of the other side of the LDS coin.

 

[Stephen168]

Good points, and very well stated, Peter John. I love reading your posts. It’s nice to have someone here that has personal experience on both sides of the aisle in order to translate the ‘jargon’ and give us an objective view of the other side of the LDS coin.

I have to agree:thumbsup:

 

[catholic-rcia]

What are you talking about?
Saying an RCC or LDS person has the ability to lie is not the same as saying they would lie.
Naturally I expect the Holy Spirit to reside within both parties and true confessions to be made.

Tony I have personally seen those from the LDS faith break down in tears when we begin to speak about a Catholic confession. These were tears of fear not joy. Then as we spoke to them about our Sacramental Confession the fear subsided and joy began to take hold… Those that have taken the time to come and learn what Catholics truly beleive by Catholics. Last year we had a 60 year old man Baptised because he could not wait to be free. He loved the idea of Confession and this is what lead him home.

I have two stories I could share with you about what I experianced first hand here in Logan Utah. . One about a young women with tattoos, another about an LDS women who enjoyed a glass of wine from time to time with her LDS husband. Something my wife and I have shared since our marriage.

Tony, In regards to Confession to God, Along with my experiance of God.

When I was about 25 years old and driving I had to pull over and gather myself. My mind wandered back to when I was eight years old looking out of my bedroom window late at night with my elder brother and sister waiting for our mother to return. She left angry at us all leaving us alone. I was remembering how I once drove by that home in my late teens and I looked at that same window and I swear I saw myself looking out of it still waiting for our mother to return. She never did come back home, she took her life on that night back then and we never got to say goodbye. She had what she believed to be the weight of the world crashing down. She had no religion on her life, yet the Holy Bible was just inches away. She died in a Motel room.

When I pulled the car over I began to cry as if it had all hit me for the first time. I remember grabbing my left hand off the steering wheel placing it on my chest while saying “its going to be ok Richy, I am here for you” I even gave my self a few pats on my shoulder. It might sound weird or crazy to you but for me it was an elder child comforting the younger child still in me. I do not believe this has happened since, but it did happen.

I know that God is so far above us but this memory does help me to have a strong sense of the Holy Trinity in my own life. I believe this memory helped me to grasp this great mystery of faith. I do see God as three in One. How is it that this revelation that I had has also been embraced by so many before me? So many during my own life? Those that walk through our Catholic doors to inquire. A Billion Christians and more?

All I know is that our God is a God that is Love. A love that enters into our joys and sorrows, even into our sin, into the trenches and brings us out because of His love for us.
.
In the Godhead there is love and this love is not solitude, it is shared. Within God this sharing has always been no beginning and no end. It is the Love of the Father for the Son, it is the love of the Son for the Father, its rays like the rays of the largest Sun light up all of the Cosmos, heaven and earth and this brilliance is the Most Holy Spirit. God, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Our lives were given to us because of this love. Why would God want to contain this within Himself? No it goes out into all eternity and we get to be a part of it. It is freely given to His Creation, no strings attached, nothing to pay back, nothing to prove or to be gained. It is what it is and it is ours to behold. The sins of the world show each of us that it cannot be possessed. Through Jesus we come to understand that it cannot be earned or merited, or somehow paid back. All we can do now or at the end of our lives here on earth is simply receive it. This is where life begins, this is where true peace reigns, this is our Church, this is our Mass, and this is the presence of Christ. Why has our Church been able to grasp this message of Hope and keep the light shining for all sinners searching?
Confession and Eucharist.

 

[KathleenGee]

God bless you, Rich, for your sharing and it has really affected me about your mother. It is a great trauma, no matter the age, for a family member to lose a loved one like this. She is in God’s mercy. You have our Heavenly Mother in a very special way, and your faith always comes across so authentic!