LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?

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Parker
You mentioned going to the Huntsville Monastery so your family could have a learning experience. Is this in the same tone when the LDS say “I have studied all other religions and have found our church to be true?”

I would be curious as to your conversation after you left.
No–they had genuine interest and natural curiosity. It wasn’t to “see” if their church was true, of course. That wouldn’t be possible by such a visit, at all.

They had enjoyed it, and I think we bought some honey or something–I don’t remember. They thought the monk in the store was kind and a good person. So did I.

Every set of eyes wasn’t the same. Some had cloudiness, others had light, in them. It varied.
 
This is something without resolution because the truth is the Bible draws on dual accounts of this as I recall (I may be confusing it with something else, but I think this is one of those bifurcated traditions). It is a historiological relic from pre-writing culture when varied cultural factions consolidated.

This is for example how we have two accounts of the Creation in Genesis.They each reflect a different valid cultural perspective on the same most sacred stories in their traditions, carried over from before they had writing to after. The fact that they difffer some to begin with merely validates the antiquity of their origins and The Bibles truthfulness to the way the stories were told. Even if they seem to contradict it tells them the way they were told anyway.

For LDS, this is consistent with the Book of Mormon teaching that when two nations come together their testimonies of the Lord will come together as well. In this case, they disagree in areas that do not involve the important dogma.

One can determine that both accounts being valid, then matters uncommon to both in a contradictory manner must not be significant to the actual dogmas the Lord intends to convey witht he story. Instead, the contradiction of itself becomes somewhat dogmatic in the standard it sets for the later inspired writers: You tell the story as it is, even if it doesn’t make sense. You will notbe able to reconcile every detail, and that is the proof of their truth.
Hi PeterJohn,

I am quite aware of the various authors of the Bible, and differing eras of composition. We have the Priestly writers, the Yahwehists, and the Editors of the Bible, (and the Q source). Genesis 1 is actually the older version of the story of Genesis, whereas Genesis 2 was writen before Genesis 1. The bottom line is that both of these stories do not vary greatly: Genesis 1 is considered a poem, and the emphasis on Gensis is the moral teaching: there is one God, who created everything, and because of the sin of first man and woman, death and fall from God’s grace entered the world. We have the promise of a saviour as predicted in Genesis.

Now, the difference with the Pharaoh and King Abimelech is that they are clearly stated as two different men, living in two different countries. Pharaoh lived in Egypt, and King Abimelch lived in Gerar, in what is now southern Israel!!

That is why learning about history and geography is important and clearly reading what is stated in the Bible, not jumping to incorrect conclusions that suit one’s beliefs.

blessings,
CEM
 
Hi PeterJohn,

I am quite aware of the various authors of the Bible, and differing eras of composition. We have the Priestly writers, the Yahwehists, and the Editors of the Bible, (and the Q source). Genesis 1 is actually the older version of the story of Genesis, whereas Genesis 2 was writen before Genesis 1. The bottom line is that both of these stories do not vary greatly: Genesis 1 is considered a poem, and the emphasis on Gensis is the moral teaching: there is one God, who created everything, and because of the sin of first man and woman, death and fall from God’s grace entered the world. We have the promise of a saviour as predicted in Genesis.

Now, the difference with the Pharaoh and King Abimelech is that they are clearly stated as two different men, living in two different countries. Pharaoh lived in Egypt, and King Abimelch lived in Gerar, in what is now southern Israel!!

That is why learning about history and geography is important and clearly reading what is stated in the Bible, not jumping to incorrect conclusions that suit one’s beliefs.

blessings,
CEM
Exactly. That is how they were recorded, as separate incidents, but they may well have been the same (if I am recalling the accounts correctly). See how similar they are… As I recall my last lesson on this, because of the similarities in the accounts these may also be from divergent traditions of the same incident. Each tradition came to tell the story as involving a differemt potentate. These were still stories that got handed down orally before they were put into writing.

My point is not to argue about it. My point is that there is no point arguing about it – but for my two cents, I see nothing definitive that anyone defiled Sarah’s virtue. It would kind of defeat the purpose of the story.

The main purpose of these stories is to emphasize Abram’s prominent associations, and the nature of his relationship with powerful leaders of his day. In the end it establishes a pre-exilic land claim for post Exilic Israel, who would have ben seen as interlopers by the inhabitants of Palestine – They didn’t forcibly take land that belonged to someone else. They had an older claim to begin with.
 
Truly u Christians are in doubts.

Why don’t u gather in a place by sect (Roman Cath, Greek & Russian Oth, Aglicans, LDS, Southern Baptist, Protestans, etc.); and ask everyone among u: “Who is the real Christians among us?” :mad:

**“Whoever believe in Jesus (PBUH) – son of Mary and further believe in me will have a double reward.”

– Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)**
 
A temple recommend can be revoked at any time during the year. If you commit an offence rendering you not temple worhty, seek reconciliation and tell your appropriate LDS authority, you lose your recommend. If you get caught doing something , you lose your recommend. If in titihing settlement you do not pay a full titihe, I do not know itf that voids a recommend immediately.
They usually give you a period of time (arbitrarily assigned by the bishop) to catch up to full tithing. If you don’t catch up in the allotted time, they will indeed yank your recommend.
 
Peter, getting a temple recommend relies on the integrity of the person - I review my condition and respond to the questions.

In a similar fashion, aren’t ther certain conditions where a Catholic should not partake of communion until they are again worthy?
Yes, but it is something the Catholic person imposes upon himself; it is not imposed on him from some “authority”. There is no such thing as a “communion recommend”. It is totally up to my own conscience - between me and God and no one else.
 
That seems to be the general feeling of anyone that tries to discuss theology with Mormons, whether they are Catholic or of any other traditional Christian faith.

Mormons have their own dictionary that defines common terms in their own ‘special way’’.
So do scientologists, who also delight in redefining common words. It is a method of mind-control.
 
So do scientologists, who also delight in redefining common words. It is a method of mind-control.
This is kind of a strange approach to religion. If one uses the Webster’s collegiate dictionary rather than a Catholic dictionary to define well known words, they are using “mind control?”

My goodness–is that what they teach in Catholic schools–that no dictionary can be used except a Catholic dictionary or it’s “mind control”? Very strange educational approach, and a case where the words would seem more to apply to the people doing the teaching if that is their approach in the teaching of their students. But whatever…
 
Well that is very coy isn’t it. Mormons have redefined the very meaning of GOD. Which isn’t a definition in Webster’s, it is WHO GOD IS.
 
This is kind of a strange approach to religion. If one uses the Webster’s collegiate dictionary rather than a Catholic dictionary to define well known words, they are using “mind control?”

My goodness–is that what they teach in Catholic schools–that no dictionary can be used except a Catholic dictionary or it’s “mind control”? Very strange educational approach, and a case where the words would seem more to apply to the people doing the teaching if that is their approach in the teaching of their students. But whatever…
You have hit on perhaps the most important point: Using Mormonism to argue that Catholicism, and even Protestantism has a “strange approach to religion” is like a Caucasian professor of cultural anthropolgy telling American Indians that they have a strange approach to Native American culture.

Catholicism has been a religion for 2,000 years. The LDS approach to religion began in the 1820s and evolved over a few decades. What Brigham Young carried to Utah differed immensely from what Joseph Smith introduced in New York.

Mormon theology in general, and the Book of Mormon specifically, identifiably reflect the religious and social ideologies of the American frontier in the 1830s, and the attitudes and understanding of the Western New York’s “burned over district” specifically. These were largely promulgated by self-educated pastors, or those versed in traditions created by under-eduacted preachers. Compared to the rest of the world, it was a “strange approach to religion” already.

Mormonism made it stranger still by re-writing references in the Bible it could not reconcile with its teachings. It did this by advancing the Apostasy theme all the way back to Adam. It affirmed that from the time of Adam the teachings of Christ were taught as clearly and distinctly as if the Gospels had a;ready been written. The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants became superior references to the Bible – which was already incomplete since it did not include the Greek Old testament – and the Bible makes much less sense without the Greek Old Testament.

Part of this emereged from the Protestant “Sola Scriptura” heresy, which somehow manages to assert the authority of an incomplete Bible as directly revealed from God, like God whispering in the ears of every author what they should write. PRotestants do not realize that everytime they assert the Bible as inviolable Word of God they validate the Catholics who compiled it and so declared it in the first place.

The only way that Mormonism can assert its positions is by declaring the Bible irretrievably corrupted, necessitating new “scripture” to help understand it, and re-writing it to match the new writings. This includes redefining a lot of terms so that you cannot read it for what it says in appropriate context, but must affirm that words that seem to mean one thing in that context really mean something else.

These definitions supplant definitions that have been in place for 2,000 years by saying what is written does not always express what the authors really intended.

Hence, to address the OP, “I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior of mankind,” sounds like it agrees with the body of Christianity, but the fact is a Mormon means som ething very different about the nature of God and Jesus, their relationship to each other, adn our relationships with them than do most Christians saying the same thing.

This is a very strange approach to religion, trying to convince people your beliefs essentially match theirs before telling them what you really believe: Seeking commitments from people who are partially informed before explaining some very crucial details.

By comparison, there is probaly no stranger belief in any religion than the idea of transubstantiation. We do not let people join until they understand the teaching (even if they do not understand the mystery of it, since none of us really do) and acknowledge belief in it. Yet this is a foundational tenet of all Christianity, and the distance of Protestant groups from Catholicism can be fairly well-gauged by how far they stray from this teaching (Lutherism & Anglicanism: Consubstantiation, not Transubstantiation, but they still believe they have the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist – Mormonism: It is all just a symbol, so it matter not even what you use, hence water instead of wine, a heresy dismissed before the end of the First Century.)

Specific terms have always been important. The preachers that influenced Joseph Smith in fomulating Mormonism did not understand the Bible to begin with, and his Father – his greatest influence – understood it even less. They had neither the correct words (since the KJV translators had to manipulate translation of passages that refute the King of England’s right to lead a separate Church) nor the cultural understanding to recognize them in what context remained.

If you think that Chritianity is a strange approach to religion then you support Mormonism’s exclusion from Christianity. Come to think of it, I can think of few approaches to religion more strange than to claim that all the creeds of Christianity are abominations in the eyes of God, and then get upset when people claim you are not Christian.

P.S. For a long time the only English translation allowed was literal translation of the Vulgate. If this seems a 'strange approach to religion" consider that in Islam you have to read the Koran in the original language to officially read it, and in Judaism even characters have to be blocked out in the right place on the page when copying a Torah.
 
PaulDupre is quite correct about the wordplay that’s used to manipulate the minds of ‘underlings’ in any kind of brainwashing technique. It’s what people like Stalin, Hitler, L. Ron Hubbard and others like them have always used to keep the masses in check. The first thing they have to do is program them to ‘think correctly’, and never question what anyone in higher authority says or does, because that means that you don’t have the ‘right attitude’ to be useful to ‘the cause’. Those that refuse to comply have to be ‘reprogrammed’ by any means necessary to fix the problem. This is exactly the way Mormons ‘teach’ their young, and new converts to their religion. Certain phrases and beliefs are constantly repeated, over & over again, in order to sear them into the minds of the congregation.

Actually, Parker, I’ve found that you’re the one that’s always been very careful in choosing what you claim are “common words” to make most of your arguments, unless you use one of those clever little word combinations that only another LDS would ever be able to deduce the real ‘hidden code’ in. But, you do it to disguise what you’re really saying. You know for a fact that you have a completely different view of the meaning, yet you persist. Even when you do use “common words”, the meaning to you is anything but the real “common meaning”, listed in any ordinary dictionary, that anyone else would define in a completely different way. But, you staunchly claim that they mean the same thing. Seriously, you may think you’re being clever and fooling people, but you’re really not fooling anyone that understands your methods, at all.

You’re really not ‘cute’ when you give such pompous, self righteous, condescending replies to anyone, especially when you just can’t find an honest argument to defend your own position, and choose to be condescending instead. I’m sure that still makes you feel superior, anyway. It’s just another form of mental ‘slight of hand’ (that magicians also use to ‘wow’ their audience), to make yourself look superior, while making others all look foolish, at least in your own mind. But, you might not want to climb up too high on that pedestal of yours, because, as the song by Lacy J. Dalton goes, “baby, it’s a long way down”.

Perhaps you should just substitute the word ‘Mormon’ for the word ‘Catholic’ in that post. I think that would be a much more accurate assessment of the truth. Isn’t your juvenile approach the typical,“I’m rubber you’re glue?”, attitude that I’ve always seen used by adolescent boys on the playground? Your mentor was well known for doing that kind of thing, so I’m not really surprised that you do as you’ve been taught to do when you feel like you’re being backed into a corner. It’s a tactic that I’ve seen used by Mormons in other places, too. It’s a way of deflecting the subject when you can’t find any way to defend yourself against the truth, by placing the perception of ‘guilt’ on the other guy, and away from yourself.

IMHO, you’re not really here as any kind of ‘student’ to try to learn anything from Catholics, because you’re not really interested in Catholicism, at all. You’re only here to pick up free ammunition to use against unsuspecting and uninformed Catholics, and other Christians, that just might fall for your ‘slight of tongue’ arguments if you attack their own belief system, by using it against them. You’re only looking to increase your vocabulary of ‘buzzwords’ to convince them that there’s really no difference between Mormonism and Catholicism, except that to you, Mormonism is the “true faith” and all of the others are deficient in some way. At least, that’s what I’ve been seeing from you, so far. I’ve seen it before, in other forums, not just on this one.

Your responses remind me of someone else I’ve known in the past. Maybe it’s just a reflection of that ‘oneness’, that attitude of ‘one mind’, ‘one purpose’ that you’ve been talking about so much. I’m sure that must be it. It’s amazing to me how that kind of thinking is so common to such a large, diverse group of people. But, it also reminds me a bit too much of the Borg mindset, that no one can ever think for themselves as an individual, or be allowed to be separated from the hive, because that would cause too much confusion that might ‘rock the boat’. The only way that they can maintain their concept of ‘perfect order’ is for all to be of that same mindset, so, “All must be assimilated.”

I always thought it was a shame that the Borg could never be more like “Hugh”. I found it rather sad, that the Borg had such a seemingly ‘perfect’ symbiotic existence, but they could never have perfect happiness or joy as individuals. Because, perfect happiness and joy comes from being able to choose to be a part of that ‘oneness of mind’, by exercising our own free will to become individual members of the group. That would be the true and perfect ‘oneness’ that only comes from God through Jesus. But, they could only achieve that imperfect ‘oneness’ by a mandate that was forced upon them. There’s a huge difference between the two.
 
ParkerD;8108684:
I just thought others might learn since your questions here were indeed some that others might also be thinking about, given the misunderstanding about the word “worthy”.
Who is misunderstanding the word “worthy”? Is this kind of like misunderstanding “one God”, “eternal”, “original sin”, “atonement”, “omnipotence”, etc., etc., etc…? I realize this may be a little flippant, Parker, but it gets to be very tedious when people think it is fine and dandy to lend their own definition to words used commonly in the English language to suit their own cause.
I am seeing that the comment I made responding to an accusation has generated counter-accusations.

The word was “worthy”.

Here are the Webster’s dictionary definitions:
  1. Having worth; valuable; estimable.
  2. Having adequate merit; meriting; fit–as in “worthy of promotion”.
  3. (Archaic) Deserved; merited.
Christ’s atonement and atoning grace provide the opportunity, through repentance, for worthiness to be in the presence of God.

It is an opportunity that is amply defended in the New Testament.
 
Christ’s atonement and atoning grace provide the opportunity, through repentance, for worthiness to be in the presence of God.

It is an opportunity that is amply defended in the New Testament.
As is the doctine/dogma that God would stop calling prophets in the Old Testament manner after Christ’s mission on Earth. Jesus taught that himself.

I know that when I was Mormon I was very dismissive about Bible references that disagreed with LDS doctrine because if they did not agree it was just evidence of the Bible having been incorrectly translated. I always had Joseph Smith translations, the Book of Moses and such to clarify it for me - it took a literal miracle for me to get past a block to reading the Bible just for what it said – to keep from reading the words and perceiving the LDS interpretations of the words instead of what it actually said.

Here is a question on the issue believing the Bible as far as it is translated correctly:
The Church is quick ot promote the moral value of the classic of Greek literature, like Aristotle and such. I have never heard any Mormon leader (or any other Mormon for that matter) question the correctness of translation of Aristotle. Sure there may be some academic discussion, like quibbling over the correct translation of some word, but no dismissal of overall value or meaning as it is written,

Here’s the deal: The records were maintained – copied, transcribed, translated, preserved – all by the same people. How did they get the Bible so wrong and Aristiotle so right?
 
SteveVH;8109688:
ParkerD;8108684:
I just thought others might learn since your questions here were indeed some that others might also be thinking about, given the misunderstanding about the word “worthy”.

I am seeing that the comment I made responding to an accusation has generated counter-accusations.

The word was “worthy”.

Here are the Webster’s dictionary definitions:
  1. Having worth; valuable; estimable.
  2. Having adequate merit; meriting; fit–as in “worthy of promotion”.
  3. (Archaic) Deserved; merited.
Christ’s atonement and atoning grace provide the opportunity, through repentance, for worthiness to be in the presence of God.

It is an opportunity that is amply defended in the New Testament.
Defended in what manner? In a Mormon sense? Or in a Chritian sense?

We are worthy only because of our Lord Jesus Christ, who destroys death by the way of the cross. Our worthiness is his mercy, Hi work, his gift, his grace.

If you attach worthiness to yourself, because of what you do, say following the Ten Commandments you are in great sin. Jesus does not sit on a tall mountain, watching as you try to climb up to Him, cheering you on at each step. Jesus climbs down the mountain, picks you up in the form of a cross and carries you up to Him, to His Father. This is the kind of worthiness I have found as a Christian. I am worthy because I allow Him to carry me knowing who I really am. But at the same time knowing who I was created to be. When pride is intertwined with the Christian sense of worthiness it looses its flavor only to be thrown out. where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.

Rich
In Christ
 
SteveVH;8109688:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerD
*I just thought others might learn since your questions here were indeed some that others might also be thinking about, given the misunderstanding about the word “worthy”.

I am seeing that the comment I made responding to an accusation has generated counter-accusations.

The word was “worthy”.

Here are the Webster’s dictionary definitions:
  1. Having worth; valuable; estimable.
  2. Having adequate merit; meriting; fit–as in “worthy of promotion”.
  3. (Archaic) Deserved; merited.
Christ’s atonement and atoning grace provide the opportunity, through repentance, for worthiness to be in the presence of God.

It is an opportunity that is amply defended in the New Testament.*

I had left, getting ready for the day and I realized how differently you would look at what I posted since your view of Jesus is not Christian. As you know we as Christians believe Jesus to be God. God comes down to gather us up. God died for us and so forth.

If I took the word worthy as it is defined in the Webster’s dictionary, understanding that this definition is a good one as it pertains to this world, if I applied the same definition to it in a spiritual sense than I would say I merit Gods love, I deserve Gods love, I have earned Gods love. Estimable………I am admirable in His eyes.

You wrote It is an opportunity that is amply defended in the New Testament.

I would see this much differently as a Catholic. The opposite as a matter of Biblical fact. You can go back to my previous post. I can only be worthy by being engrafted to Jesus. The Eucharist takes care of this along with Confession. The Mass. This is what turns sinners into Saints. We are all called to Sainthood.
 
Yes, but it is something the Catholic person imposes upon himself; it is not imposed on him from some “authority”. There is no such thing as a “communion recommend”. It is totally up to my own conscience - between me and God and no one else.
Paul, Your comment makes me think of stones and glass houses 🙂
  • a good catholic will have confessed all their sins to “some authority” in his local church.
  • the same “authority” that would serve him communion every Sunday
Now, an LDS person must also choose to confess his sins and answer his temple recommend questions. The level of intengrity is up to their own conscience, just like the RCC that may choose not to confess his/her real sins to the priest.

Thanks for the chuckle!
 
.
  • the same “authority” that would serve him communion every Sunday
Tony888, this is inaccurate. A Catholic can confess to any priest or bishop. It doesn’t have to be, and is not required, that a person confess only to the pastor of the parish where communion is received.

Also, even if one does confess to the pastor of the parish, that doesn’t necessarily mean that is who the person will receive communion from. It could be a deacon, another priest, or an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion (EMHC).

For example, where I habitually sit at Mass, I rarely receive communion from our pastor. It is almost exclusively a deacon, visiting priest, or EMHC…and I prefer a priest in another parish as my confessor (the same priest who I have always gone to).
 
Paul, Your comment makes me think of stones and glass houses 🙂
  • a good catholic will have confessed all their sins to “some authority” in his local church.
  • the same “authority” that would serve him communion every Sunday
Now, an LDS person must also choose to confess his sins and answer his temple recommend questions. The level of intengrity is up to their own conscience, just like the RCC that may choose not to confess his/her real sins to the priest.

Thanks for the chuckle!
Just another rather large difference. Confessing of one’s sins is a cause for celebration by the priest and the one confessing. The priests that I know tell me that there is no greater joy then hearing a good confession from one who has been away for years and has finally returned home. This is not some interrogation that one must pass in order to maintain a certain status within the Church. It is the experience of God’s mercy and forgiveness, plain and simple. No records are kept and it is not discussed with anyone, including the other clergy.

Once again, however, why do you feel the need to equate the two in the first place? Why can’t you just let this practice (LDS confessions) stand on its own merits without attempting to equate it with the Catholic sacrament of Reconcilliation. They really are completely different. It just seems that LDS members here are constantly trying to validate their own practices by saying “see you do the same thing”, when, in fact, we don’t, but that is beside the point.
 
Yes, but it is something the Catholic person imposes upon himself; it is not imposed on him from some “authority”. There is no such thing as a “communion recommend”. It is totally up to my own conscience - between me and God and no one else.
Thought I already responded to this. Your remark reflects a misunderstanding of Reconciliation I also had as a Mormon because of the hierarchical authoritarian organization of Mormonism, similar to the military. In fact, I was taught in Aaronic Priesthood classes that it is modelled on the military organization of Israel following the Exodus, with Moses at the top and subordinate leaders below so that Moses did not have to deal with all the little problems.

Catholicism allows much more local autonomy than this, and Reconciliation is a good example. My Priest is not a judge over me the same way that LDS leaders are judges over their local congregations. I can confess to any Priest, active or retired, any place I go. I regularly make confession to a retired priest who lives in my parish, and get frequent adice and counsel from him (it is such a blessing to be able to sit down and just chat a couple of hours eevery couple of weeks with someone who has cultivated his relationship to Christ as a Priest for 53 years).

In addition, Priests do not confess to their Bishops, but to other Priests, under normal circumstances. This is because priests and bishops hearing confessions cannot use what they hear in Confession for anything else, ever. Since Bishops are administrative authorities over Priests this would put a Bishop in an untenable position regarding the sanctity of hearing a confession from a priest. He cannot be reasonably expected to segregate what he hears in confession from his administrative decisions over the Priest.

I recognize this is entirely antithetical to how Mormons understand authority should work.
Mormoniam sees a serious sinner as a potential disease to the body of the congregation, so it needs extrusion (excommunication). In catholicism sin is the part of the human condition most needing healing, and it cannot heal if cut-off from the Body of Christ.
 
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