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pinay
Guest
Yes.
No.What about their teachings on the Trinity?
By the way - the LDS understanding of the nature of the Godhead is not as divergent as the Holy Trinity as many would like to believe.
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By the way - the LDS understanding of the nature of the Godhead is not as divergent as the Holy Trinity as many would like to believe.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
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pinay
Guest
That defines the word Catholic with a capital C.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
I would bet the Lutherans would not agree with you on that. As they also except this creed.
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pinay
Guest
Lutheran foundation is Catholic.
Read through the entire Athanasian Creed (even the discussion point in the link provided), Nicene Creed, Apostles Creed. You will see clearly that it defines what Catholics believe, not what Christians believe.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
I have read the Athanasian creed many times. Keep in mind to be christain at the time was to be catholic. Also all christian foundation is Catholic as The Catholic church was founded by Chirst and spread through the Apostles to the Bishops up to this very day. So every communiyt of christians can be trace its foundation to the Catholic church. If is can not then it is not Christian. You asked for a document of the Church on what has to be beleived to be christian I proved it. Again at the time Catholic was the only christian so the words could be interchanged in the creed.
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pinay
Guest
No, that doesn’t prove it. Because - the term used is Catholic. Not Christian. They are not synonymous even if in the beginning all Christians were Catholic. Schism from the Catholic church does not a non-Christian make.
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SteveVH
Guest
Believing in the Trinity is not the end-all to being Christian. But we are not speaking of an individual’s fatih journey, but rather a set of doctrines which depart from the original Church’s teachings and how far one can depart and still claim the title Christian.
Christianity cannot be defined accurately in a sentence or two. It has been defined over centuries through every aspect of the Church’s life; its doctrines, its writings, its liturgies, its works of mercy, its understanding of the nature of God. There was only one Church, as I have said, for 1500 years (as far as unity of doctrine). My point is that this Church, by default, defines what it means to be Christian. All others are variations on the theme.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
The Term Catholic is used because when the Creed was Written all Christians were Catholic. You are correct being in schism with The chruch does not make you a non Christian. If that were the case we would not hold that the Orthodox are christian, but we do not only hold them to be Christian but to have vaild sacraments.
but since you are LDS I do not expect you to except any thing form the Chruch as authorative. if you did you would be in the Chruch.
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lax16
Guest
Hello pinay - Splintering from Rome is not the problem! Believing in something other than the Trinity is! Protestants and Orthodox believe (and always have) in the Trinity and are Christian, not Catholic.
Is Mormon the name of any church? Or does it refer as a nickname to the followers of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon? Please don’t tell me you are not a Mormon! I live in Utah and practically everyone calls themselves Mormon!
Do you agree with this quote?
In an interview with Larry King, late Church President Gordon B. Hinckley said, “This Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy… They are in violation of the civil law… Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church… the Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous and does not accept into its membership those practicing plural marriage.”
You see, there is a law of your church and some people are in violation of it. Not everyone can be in your church - there is a defintion - those in violation of the law of your church will NOT BE ACCEPTED INTO CHURCH MEMBERSHIP!
There is a membership pinay! And guess what - those who don’t fit the definition won’t be let in whether you and I agree or not. And there is a definition of Christian set forth by the early Church leaders and those who don’t fit the definition are not Christian whether you and I agree or not.
Your church leaders set guidelines and the early Church leaders set guidelines.
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SteveVH
Guest
First of all, let me tell you that I admire your willingness to participate on this forum, especially considering that all these questions and responses are, for the most part, directed at you.
I do not believe that truth is dependant upon what ever we consider to be important. In other words, truth is not relative, but absolute. It is our obligation as God’s creatures to find that truth and accept it even if it goes against what we thought was important. Christ didn’t leave us with the words “Now you have heard me, go do what makes you comfortable”. No, he told us to pick our cross daily and follow him. A cross is not something we would choose on our own. It is painful, but we are asked to do it nevertheless. So what I am saying is that it matters very much what one chooses to believe and what one chooses to reject and it is not up to our personal preferances.
God bless.
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lax16
Guest
Why do LDS pick and choose what they want to believe but claim to be the ONE true church. You either agree with the teachings of the Great Catholic Saints, or you don’t.Yes.
No.
By the way - the LDS understanding of the nature of the Godhead is not as divergent as the Holy Trinity as many would like to believe.
This reminds me of the several Mormons I know that tell me how much they respect and follow the works of Blesseds John Paul II and Mother Theresa.
How can one follow the teachings of apostates and members of the most abominable church on earth?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Pinay,
Now that I know where you live, you give some creedance to me about some issues of the lack of witness…A Filipina shared with me her life in Cebu…and then I know alot from my contacts in another state…I will leave it at that.
I live in a city whose Catholic Filipino community is a true model and the archbishop is wanting them to lead in developing more faith communities like this across the USA.
But some times societal forces and history can compromise the integration of faith into society. I know those remarks that Spain did this or that and made us this way…etc…I can’t get into that blame game…but I am very aware of your situation and have voiced concerns…
You can’t blame the Catholic Church for failing witness in your area…it also is a working of grace through nature.
And the construct of Mormonism is that of judging and condemning Christianity. Where is love and understanding in that? Or refusing to look at how the Catholic Church has continued in documenting and recording the faith or lack of in its followers. The Jews are an open book regarding their history of faith found in the Old Testament and their faith of today. Yet I find more animosity towards Catholics than the Jews by your religion.
The Catholic word is Greek and means universal…that Jesus died and resurrected for us. All Christian communities have been centered on the Word of God and the Eucharist. My previous post on this thread stated what early Christians were taught to uphold to take the name of Jesus Christ. These directives are the same today.
It is only since Luther that Christians have turned away from the Divine Presence of Christ among us, to choose instead basing their faith on various Bible translations…only 500 years now. I prefer to be same and stay with my Church because it goes back to the Apostles themselves.
St. Peter forbade using the bible for personal interpretation because it leads to a false Christ and a broken community of believers. St. Paul declared it anathema to anyone following an angel instead of listening to the Apostles…and given the fact that Mormonism began in America…its teachings reflecting early America folklore and gnosticism such a very short time ago…this is giving witness to another Christ who did not do his job right, and thus not divine.
Mormons refuse to call themselves Christians…why is that? Where is God working in that…and to be Christian does it mean we have to insulate ourselves from all that is not saintly…??? We are to bear witness to the world. We are to be concerned for the welfare of the poor-- all people…a Church turned outward to the world, not inward pointing to itself and its own self proclaimed sanctity.
Mormons do not believe in the same Christ. But I believe there is an area within the heart of individual Mormons that have some of the same essence of belief in Christ as the Christians do.
I always have a sense of dismay when I see people saying we are fake because we name Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the Holy Trinity—3 persons in one…and this is what Arius, like the Lone Ranger, was deciding…a particular philosophy rather than Jesus Christ Himself. There is only One God.
And we began with the work of God through our parents…we did not live in some nether world deciding whether or not we wanted to start a new life here …or we would have had some memory of that choice, that working of free will. But you do not and we do not. We came here through our parents and the Lord giving us life.
Mormons do not base their faith on Jesus Christ, but on Joseph Smith. They refuse to call themselves Christians, to avoid any connectedness to the Cross, anything that will make them look like us.
You come across to me as rather someone who has a loving heart, but you have not had much witness of faith by Catholics in your area…
Keep you in prayer…
Now that I know where you live, you give some creedance to me about some issues of the lack of witness…A Filipina shared with me her life in Cebu…and then I know alot from my contacts in another state…I will leave it at that.
I live in a city whose Catholic Filipino community is a true model and the archbishop is wanting them to lead in developing more faith communities like this across the USA.
But some times societal forces and history can compromise the integration of faith into society. I know those remarks that Spain did this or that and made us this way…etc…I can’t get into that blame game…but I am very aware of your situation and have voiced concerns…
You can’t blame the Catholic Church for failing witness in your area…it also is a working of grace through nature.
And the construct of Mormonism is that of judging and condemning Christianity. Where is love and understanding in that? Or refusing to look at how the Catholic Church has continued in documenting and recording the faith or lack of in its followers. The Jews are an open book regarding their history of faith found in the Old Testament and their faith of today. Yet I find more animosity towards Catholics than the Jews by your religion.
The Catholic word is Greek and means universal…that Jesus died and resurrected for us. All Christian communities have been centered on the Word of God and the Eucharist. My previous post on this thread stated what early Christians were taught to uphold to take the name of Jesus Christ. These directives are the same today.
It is only since Luther that Christians have turned away from the Divine Presence of Christ among us, to choose instead basing their faith on various Bible translations…only 500 years now. I prefer to be same and stay with my Church because it goes back to the Apostles themselves.
St. Peter forbade using the bible for personal interpretation because it leads to a false Christ and a broken community of believers. St. Paul declared it anathema to anyone following an angel instead of listening to the Apostles…and given the fact that Mormonism began in America…its teachings reflecting early America folklore and gnosticism such a very short time ago…this is giving witness to another Christ who did not do his job right, and thus not divine.
Mormons refuse to call themselves Christians…why is that? Where is God working in that…and to be Christian does it mean we have to insulate ourselves from all that is not saintly…??? We are to bear witness to the world. We are to be concerned for the welfare of the poor-- all people…a Church turned outward to the world, not inward pointing to itself and its own self proclaimed sanctity.
Mormons do not believe in the same Christ. But I believe there is an area within the heart of individual Mormons that have some of the same essence of belief in Christ as the Christians do.
I always have a sense of dismay when I see people saying we are fake because we name Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the Holy Trinity—3 persons in one…and this is what Arius, like the Lone Ranger, was deciding…a particular philosophy rather than Jesus Christ Himself. There is only One God.
And we began with the work of God through our parents…we did not live in some nether world deciding whether or not we wanted to start a new life here …or we would have had some memory of that choice, that working of free will. But you do not and we do not. We came here through our parents and the Lord giving us life.
Mormons do not base their faith on Jesus Christ, but on Joseph Smith. They refuse to call themselves Christians, to avoid any connectedness to the Cross, anything that will make them look like us.
You come across to me as rather someone who has a loving heart, but you have not had much witness of faith by Catholics in your area…
Keep you in prayer…
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pinay
Guest
Not true. LDS teaches that truth is not exclusive to the LDS Church.
The LDS Articles of Faith states:
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
and…
*…If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things. *
So basically, when a Catholic says - Jesus is the Son of God - it doesn’t make it untrue just because a Catholic said it. We do hold certain Catholic teachings as authoritative - just not all of it.
Make sense?
Okay, about who gets to decide who is Christian, a Roman Catholic says they have 1500 years worth of history to give them the authority to call any group Christian or not. But then, so do the Orthodox, Anglicans, and yes, even Arians - all of whom have roots imbedded in the rock of Peter.
So, who gets to decide then?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Pinay,
Don’t buy Mormon theology or Mormon practices…I think you are being given a very white washed view of Mormonism on your side of the world…
Seek the truth, not rationalizing. It is starting to look like you are promoting a new brand of Mormonism here. It really gets me what that organization is doing to people who live away from America…I live within 2 miles of the temple in my state, and visited their bookstore, and I did not see the same faith at all but condemnation for Christianity.
It doesn’t tell you who was doing right when the Last Apostle Died…I doubt very much Joseph Smith wrote that book…unless he had a group of bodies.
Don’t buy Mormon theology or Mormon practices…I think you are being given a very white washed view of Mormonism on your side of the world…
Seek the truth, not rationalizing. It is starting to look like you are promoting a new brand of Mormonism here. It really gets me what that organization is doing to people who live away from America…I live within 2 miles of the temple in my state, and visited their bookstore, and I did not see the same faith at all but condemnation for Christianity.
It doesn’t tell you who was doing right when the Last Apostle Died…I doubt very much Joseph Smith wrote that book…unless he had a group of bodies.
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pinay
Guest
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soren1
Guest
Pinay,
If you are to argue that Catholics should exclude Mormonism from the category of “Christian,” self-consistency would require you to say what you have said, that the name “Mormon” is not an exclusive identification for the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. While your fair-mindedness here reflects well upon you, I cannot fail to notice that in taking this position you differ from the leaders of your own Church, who have authority to articulate the stance of the Church itself, and have contradicted this claim in forcible terms. The most obvious example of this is in the style guide posted in the newsroom at LDS.org. For years it has read:
*The term “Mormonism” is acceptable in describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
When referring to people or organizations that practice polygamy, the terms “Mormons,” “Mormon fundamentalist,” “Mormon dissidents,” etc. are incorrect. The Associated Press Stylebook notes: “The term Mormon is not properly applied to the other … churches that resulted from the split after [Joseph] Smith’s death.”*
Now, this passage, written to appeal to secular journalists, makes an argument similar to your point about Webster’s dictionary: they note a citation in the AP Stylebook. That is to say, they find a way of defending their position by recourse to purely sociological usage. But the charge that Mormons are not Christian does not define “Christianity” by any sociological, secularly determined meaning. It is a specific theological judgment, which is not merely about who believes and follows Christ in the nominal sense used by the dictionary. It is about who follows him indeed, with the true spirit of belief.
In other contexts, for non-secular audiences, Mormon authorities are happy to consider who is or is not a true Mormon as a properly theological question, in the same way that Catholics consider the word “Christian.” And here Mormon authorities again take an exclusivist stance. Consider the late President Gordon B. Hinckley’s unequivocal statement in printed in Ensign Magazine in 1998:
*There is no such thing as a “Mormon Fundamentalist.” It is a contradiction to use the two words together.
More than a century ago God clearly revealed unto His prophet Wilford Woodruff that the practice of plural marriage should be discontinued, which means that it is now against the law of God. Even in countries where civil or religious law allows polygamy, the Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous and does not accept into its membership those practicing plural marriage.*
What President Hinckley is saying here, and the context bears this out even more, is that the word “Mormon” really applies only to members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Sociological considerations such as the self-identification of polygamous sect members as “Mormon” or the belief they profess in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon have no bearing upon this judgment. This is a purely theological assertion, distinct from any of the secular reasoning that could indeed be provided to classify polygamous dissidents as Mormon.
Let me end here by stating explicitly what inconsistency an standards arises from these different attitudes. Mormon leaders, even a Prophet, use the name “Mormon” exclusively, and justify this by a theological argument when it suits them or a secular argument when it suits them. Yet Mormon followers learn to disparage the very notion that Catholics, Protestants, et al., should use their own theological principles to define “Christian” in a similarly restrictive sense. This is an example not merely of logical inconsistency, but of moral hypocrisy
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KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Soren…
If Mormons consider themselves Christian, why then, are they not calling themselves Christians? Where is the proof that true Christianity as an institution did not come about until 1800 years after the event of Christ? This thinking in itself is reflective of a self- serving, cult of leadership within Mormonism
Pinay, alot of links showing Mormon history of thought, practices, rituals, the experiences of those who grew up in generational Mormon families and the fall out from an ever changing religion…these are being removed from the internet.
Because my state has a history of anti-Catholicism, I called the LDS in Salt Lake City, as there were no responses to my emails. They didn’t know anything about this book…When I returned to see the book two weeks later, it was taken out of the store. I read that it was considered a standard in Mormon beliefs. I read Smith’s Doctrines and Covenants…and Orson Pratt edition of the Pearl of Great Price, around 1852. One of them had these expressions of ‘pshaw’…or to the like after stating each conviction of Mormonism vs Christianity. It really spooked me out.
The apostolic Catholic Church has no writings like that…Christ came to die for all men. Christ is the source of our sanctity.
If Mormons consider themselves Christian, why then, are they not calling themselves Christians? Where is the proof that true Christianity as an institution did not come about until 1800 years after the event of Christ? This thinking in itself is reflective of a self- serving, cult of leadership within Mormonism
Pinay, alot of links showing Mormon history of thought, practices, rituals, the experiences of those who grew up in generational Mormon families and the fall out from an ever changing religion…these are being removed from the internet.
Because my state has a history of anti-Catholicism, I called the LDS in Salt Lake City, as there were no responses to my emails. They didn’t know anything about this book…When I returned to see the book two weeks later, it was taken out of the store. I read that it was considered a standard in Mormon beliefs. I read Smith’s Doctrines and Covenants…and Orson Pratt edition of the Pearl of Great Price, around 1852. One of them had these expressions of ‘pshaw’…or to the like after stating each conviction of Mormonism vs Christianity. It really spooked me out.
The apostolic Catholic Church has no writings like that…Christ came to die for all men. Christ is the source of our sanctity.
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soren1
Guest
Actually Mormons do say they are Christian. In fact, its a point they like to make a lot, especially in the face of opposition. An entire, influential book was written in the early 1990s by the BYU professors Daniel C. Peterson and Stephen Ricks, called Offenders for a Word, which is dedicated to showing that Mormons are Christian, and at least as recently as October 2007 and April 2008, Elder Jeffrey Holland, a Mormon Apostle, gave two separate General Conference addresses defending the LDS Church’s claim to the title Christian.
Interestingly, however, they have not always been so. The Mormon insistence on an inclusive definition of “Christian” is a very modern development. The classical Mormon view is that all Christian churches are only so-called; they are neither “Christian” nor even “churches” though they may be called so for convenience’ sake.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Yes, the Orthodox and Angelican claim this authority with the Catholic Church as I have said about the Orthodox being in schism does not end your apostal succession they still have valid sacrements and orders. The angelicans can be question on that matter but they still hold to the creeds. Even Arius was a preist of the catholic church so he was christian that started to teach a heresecy. and it is 2000 years of history not 1500. the Anser to your Question of who gets to decide is the Chruch Christ founded on the apostles and that would be the Catholic Church.
and I doubt that the orthodox not the Protestants ( at least those form the reformation) would argue on about the definition of a christian just about how to practice that faith.
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