LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?

[Inishfree]

This is what I’m trying to tell you all guys!

**I am not stating that you, nor I, misunderstand CC460.

I am telling you that you misunderstand the position of the LDS Church when they say men may become gods.**

I am trying to tell you, that men becoming gods is not what separates the Catholic Church from the LDS Church - because that is the same. What you as a Catholic believe about men becoming gods is the same thing that the LDS Church believe about men becoming gods.

The problem is when a Catholic tries to interpret what the LDS mean by “men becoming gods”… it is also the same problem when an LDS tries to interpret what Catholics mean by “men becoming gods”.

And I can see it clearly from where I sit - because, I used to be on the Catholic side of things arguing with the LDS about this same exact concept… until I finally sat down and studied what exactly the LDS Church believe about it and bounced it against what I believe!

Where the LDS differ is in the nature of God and the nature of man. Which we already know - Catholics are Trinitarians, LDS are not. And on top of that, LDS believe in a pre-mortal existence.

I can give you a point by point dissertation on this exact topic - complete with scripture verses - both on the Catholic understanding and the LDS understanding - point out where the two religions diverge and let the chips fall as they may. As a matter of fact, I can probably just cut-and-paste that discussion because I already have it all written down somewhere in my notes.

Unfortunately, that kind of discussion is not something you guys here, well, maybe with the exception of SteveVH, is open to. Because - you can’t put out something like that to a community who has no interest in understanding each other. In that kind of discussion, the Holy Spirit has to be present, otherwise, it will only end up as an argument instead of a discussion.

It is unfortunate that a thread in the Non-Catholic forum titled “LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?” cannot really fully discuss what the LDS believe about Jesus Christ because anything an LDS posts about Jesus Christ will not be received as an intellectual study but as an opportunity to bash the LDS on the head with her heresy.

That’s okay. Like I said before, this is Catholic Answers Forum, not LDS Answers Forum. You, Catholics, decide what you want to know.

Pinay, I have been Roman Catholic for over twenty eight years. I was even invited and did teach CCD for eight years to children.

I have never heard of “men becoming gods”. Perhaps you could explain what is meant by this. Because, I have been a Christian all of my life and I don’t have a clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[lax16]

This is what I’m trying to tell you all guys!

**I am not stating that you, nor I, misunderstand CC460.

I am telling you that you misunderstand the position of the LDS Church when they say men may become gods.**

I am trying to tell you, that men becoming gods is not what separates the Catholic Church from the LDS Church - because that is the same. What you as a Catholic believe about men becoming gods is the same thing that the LDS Church believe about men becoming gods.

The problem is when a Catholic tries to interpret what the LDS mean by “men becoming gods”… it is also the same problem when an LDS tries to interpret what Catholics mean by “men becoming gods”.

And I can see it clearly from where I sit - because, I used to be on the Catholic side of things arguing with the LDS about this same exact concept… until I finally sat down and studied what exactly the LDS Church believe about it and bounced it against what I believe!

Where the LDS differ is in the nature of God and the nature of man. Which we already know - Catholics are Trinitarians, LDS are not. And on top of that, LDS believe in a pre-mortal existence.

I can give you a point by point dissertation on this exact topic - complete with scripture verses - both on the Catholic understanding and the LDS understanding - point out where the two religions diverge and let the chips fall as they may. As a matter of fact, I can probably just cut-and-paste that discussion because I already have it all written down somewhere in my notes.

Unfortunately, that kind of discussion is not something you guys here, well, maybe with the exception of SteveVH, is open to. Because - you can’t put out something like that to a community who has no interest in understanding each other. In that kind of discussion, the Holy Spirit has to be present, otherwise, it will only end up as an argument instead of a discussion.

It is unfortunate that a thread in the Non-Catholic forum titled “LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?” cannot really fully discuss what the LDS believe about Jesus Christ because anything an LDS posts about Jesus Christ will not be received as an intellectual study but as an opportunity to bash the LDS on the head with her heresy.

That’s okay. Like I said before, this is Catholic Answers Forum, not LDS Answers Forum. You, Catholics, decide what you want to know.

Hi pinay - Are you saying that Mormons share the belief with Catholics that we can become *like sons of *God - not “a” god?

thanks!

 

[lax16]

I found this from Gospel Principles:
lds.org/library/display/0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

EXALTATION
C h a p t e r 4 7

When we lived with our Heavenly Father, he explained a plan for our progression. We could become like him, an exalted being. The plan required that we be separated from him and come to earth. This separation was necessary to prove whether we would obey our Father’s commandments even though we were no longer in his presence. The plan provided that when earth life ended, we would be judged and rewarded according to the degree of our faith and obedience. We would then be assigned to the place for which we had prepared.

Jesus taught, “In my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2). From the scriptures we learn that there are three kingdoms of glory in heaven. The Apostle Paul mentioned that he knew a man who was “caught up to the third heaven” (2 Corinthians 12:2). Paul named two of the kingdoms in heaven: the celestial and the terrestrial (see 1 Corinthians 15:40-42). The celestial is the highest, and the terrestrial is second. Through latter-day revelation we learn that the third kingdom is the telestial kingdom (see D&C 76:81). We also learn that there are three heavens or degrees within the celestial kingdom (see D&C 131:1).

Discussion

Have someone tell about our Heavenly Father’s plan for us.

What Is Exaltation?
Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life God lives. He lives in great glory. He is perfect. He possesses all knowledge and all wisdom. He is the Father of spirit children. He is a creator. We can become like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.

If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, just like our Heavenly Father. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give his children (see D&C 14:7).

Discussion

What is exaltation?

Blessings of Exaltation
Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. He has said, “This is my work and my glory–to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).

They will become gods.

They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

They will receive a fulness of joy.

They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have–all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

 

[zaffiroborant]

That defines the word Catholic with a capital C.

But on Wikipedia it is not Catholic with a C but catholic with a c.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So pinay, turnaround is fair play…I was raised LDS, BIC, in Salt Lake City. My dad was a bishop, my mother a RS president, my entire family is Mormon still, descended from Mormon pioneers…my family bleeds Mormonism. I went to Mormon seminary for four years - five days a week, three hours of church every Sunday, MIA/YW once a week…what lax16 posted is what I was taught. Mormonism teaches that people can become A god, which is far OUTSIDE any Catholic teaching, east or west.

The difference of WHO GOD IS, is foundational in this. Mormons believe in a man-god and believe that they themselves can become man-gods. This is not the God of Christianity. When you understand WHO GOD IS, you understand it is NOT possible for you to BE GOD.

You don’t have an understanding of Catholic doctrine on this, but it is understandable, as obviously you have taken a Mormon teaching and have gone looking for something in Catholicism to back up what you want to believe. Taking Catholic teaching out of context, and applying Mormon meanings to those teachings, is not a valid way to backup what you believe. It is only layering half-truths over falsehood.

This has nothing to do with your Catholicism, or the arguments you made as a Catholic. These are MORMON arguments, based on a false teaching of a false prophet, and you are trying to prop this false teaching up with the Truth of the Catholic Church.

To what means, is the question? Why? Why the need to make two very different teachings look like something they’re not?

 

[Marie5890]

So pinay, turnaround is fair play…I was raised LDS, BIC, in Salt Lake City. My dad was a bishop, my mother a RS president, my entire family is Mormon still, descended from Mormon pioneers…my family bleeds Mormonism. I went to Mormon seminary for four years - five days a week, three hours of church every Sunday, MIA/YW once a week…what lax16 posted is what I was taught. Mormonism teaches that people can become A god, which is far OUTSIDE any Catholic teaching, east or west.

The difference of WHO GOD IS, is foundational in this. Mormons believe in a man-god and believe that they themselves can become man-gods. This is not the God of Christianity. When you understand WHO GOD IS, you understand it is NOT possible for you to BE GOD.

You don’t have an understanding of Catholic doctrine on this, but it is understandable, as obviously you have taken a Mormon teaching and have gone looking for something in Catholicism to back up what you want to believe. Taking Catholic teaching out of context, and applying Mormon meanings to those teachings, is not a valid way to backup what you believe. It is only layering half-truths over falsehood.

This has nothing to do with your Catholicism, or the arguments you made as a Catholic. These are MORMON arguments, based on a false teaching of a false prophet, and you are trying to prop this false teaching up with the Truth of the Catholic Church.

To what means, is the question? Why? Why the need to make two very different teachings look like something they’re not?

Articulately stated. Thanks Rebecca.

 

[Inishfree]

Thanks Rebecca for the info. It is “far outside” any Protestant teachings too.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Rebecca,

I would rather believe in the witness and fidelity of the Apostles to Jesus Christ than than Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Like I said before, I perceived Mormon sophists studying our sites to use them to build more arguments.

:Using Pinay and now hearing her claim that she can match the Mormon teachings with any Catholic further verifies my perception that this religion is continuing to white wash its past teachings and practices, but has employed now Mormon sophists, which they never had before, to prove their points in focusing primarily on the Catholic Church. And they prey on women like this. Rebecca, you are right about her purpose here.

My husband was offered a job in SLC, and right away I experienced the Holy Spirit leading me to especially guard my daughters. My father was very worried about them, I called a priest in Utah, and he said yes, my Catholic children would be targeted by this religion, and with all that is going with kids these days, it would be too much for me to deal with. So my husband turned down the promotion and took a downgrade to stay here…all because of what Mormonism wants from Catholics…their souls and pocketbooks. I would rather be poor than be exposed to that targeted environment. When we came back, my son’s first grade teacher begged me not to move down there, she a native of SLC and said the pressure was constant.

Incorporating people into the Mormon church by illicitly getting into people’s personal records to make them members of this church is a form of stealing as well as fraud, and denying the basic dignity of the human person…So much for promoting that men will be gods when this church violates a person’s freedom of choice.

The more I continue to learn about Mormonism and see its tactics, the less I respect it, and seeing how it is using these Filipina pinays, always very compliant and hard working and trusting, to use them for their agenda.

The Island Cebu is a place where Christ has not arrived yet in people’s hearts. It is not so much the issue of failure of Catholicism for Pinay, as it is the local mindset there. It all depends on the genuine openness of a person’s heart to Christ.

Christianity came to ancient Rome whose environment was totally different from that 500 years ago, of the many islands of the Philippines where Christianity was brought to them by the Spanish. How much was faith imposed on the people?..missionary practices today are different then and the clergy are in no rush to catechize people without proper training.

But the light of the Gospel is still integrating the reality of Jesus into the native culture. Manilla, where my husband was born, practices the Hour of Divine Mercy all over the city at 3 pm every day.

Last night I was with an Italian man, very devout Catholic, giving his all for Christ, and gave him information and sites to learn more about Moronism and its inroads into Italy. He shook his head and said it will never be what the Mormons hope.
As far as Pinay’s claims to prove each point that Mormonism is wrong, she is not working with a full deck, and may be in another year, they will have some more changes to their system…

I prefer to pray for her and others like her, especially in these countries that don’t know Mormonism’s history.

Thanks again to Rebecca, your depth of understanding always comes through, and you can always pick up on what is really going on! God bless you, Marie, for always working for charity and unity…you are a real dear…and to all the others…again, it is very important we spend more time praying for them than trying to convince them…

You can fool some of the people some times, but you can’t fool the people all the time.

 

[lax16]

I can give you a point by point dissertation on this exact topic - complete with scripture verses - both on the Catholic understanding and the LDS understanding - point out where the two religions diverge and let the chips fall as they may. As a matter of fact, I can probably just cut-and-paste that discussion because I already have it all written down somewhere in my notes.

Hi pinay - I hope you do share this. I would love to know how the LDS teach this topic - our similarities and our differences.

When you say it is written in your notes, is it from bible study or Sunday services?

When and where do LDS take their classes/instruction?

thanks!

 

[SteveVH]

In a nutshell, we are creatures and we will always be creatures, even in our glorified state. God is divine, always has been and always will be. God offers us eternal life with him as his adopted sons and daughters. He invites us into the inner life of the Trinity on which we will gaze in wonder and awe for eternity (beatific vision). But we will still be his creatures and He will always be our Creator.

So, do we share in divine life? Yes. Will we be divine? No. Mormonism does not distinguish between divinity and humanity as they believe that God was first a man. So in their understanding there would be no reason why we could not become a god ourselves. It is their fundemental understanding of the nature of God that is in error. To believe that they can become equal to the Father is the first lie told to humanity and they have bought it hook, line and sinker.

As lax16 pointed out in the quotation from Gospel Principles"

"They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family."

As men, we will become “Heavenly Father” to our own “spirit children”. Not quite sure where the women fit in here other than as a means of spirtual procreation. So this is not even close to the Christian understanding of becoming “like God”. We believe there will be only one eternal family, not many eternal families. The only marriage in heaven will be between Christ and His bride, the Church. The thought itself is 180 degrees opposed to Christian understanding and belief.

 

[KathleenGee]

To use one quote from the Catechism with the wrong context…is a form of lying and fraud…all to become as gods…who was the one who first inspired this? Satan.

 

[lax16]

Hi pinay - I hope you do share this. I would love to know how the LDS teach this topic - our similarities and our differences.

When you say it is written in your notes, is it from bible study or Sunday services?

When and where do LDS take their classes/instruction?

thanks!

pinay - I am re-posting hoping this topic will not be buried.

thanks!

 

[lax16]

Maybe another LDS poster would like to help with this?

‘‘I am trying to tell you, that men becoming gods is not what separates the Catholic Church from the LDS Church - because that is the same. What you as a Catholic believe about men becoming gods is the same thing that the LDS Church believe about men becoming gods’’

 

[TheExorcist]

Maybe another LDS poster would like to help with this?

‘‘I am trying to tell you, that men becoming gods is not what separates the Catholic Church from the LDS Church - because that is the same. What you as a Catholic believe about men becoming gods is the same thing that the LDS Church believe about men becoming gods’’

No TBM on this board will be able to help you on this one because they will take one of two positions:

1. The LDS church doesnt teach that men can become gods

Or

1. They will make a false equivalence with CC460

I think this thread has jumped the shark

 

[lax16]

No TBM on this board will be able to help you on this one because they will take one of two positions:

1. The LDS church doesnt teach that men can become gods

Or

1. They will make a false equivalence with CC460

I think this thread has jumped the shark

I find it soooo strange that a Mormon who has been so active on this thread (and others) could make such a statement that is not going to be clarified.

The problem is, we are now all left to draw our own conclusions.
Was pinay misled on this issue when becoming LDS?
Did she misunderstand the teaching?
Is she somehow not allowed to return to this thread because she said something she shouldn’t have?
Hopefully, pinay you feel that you are welcome here to come back and explain your point!!

(I think this thread is being read by many but answered by none.)

Certainly, there is a Mormon reading this who could bring some clarity to this issue.

 

[Inishfree]

I’m sorry. I can not answer it either.

As I have said in other post. I was raised Protestant and never heard of men becoming gods. The Methodist Church is fairly close to what Catholism teaches. Many even consider themselves as “lazy Catholics.”

That was why I had to question it. Since, in my humble opinion. It goes against the first three commandments which belong to God.

“Have no other gods before me.”

I was taught this as a Methodist. Breaking any one of the first three commandments was mortal sin. The same is true in Catholism.

 

[ParkerD]

I find it soooo strange that a Mormon who has been so active on this thread (and others) could make such a statement that is not going to be clarified.

The problem is, we are now all left to draw our own conclusions.
Was pinay misled on this issue when becoming LDS?
Did she misunderstand the teaching?
Is she somehow not allowed to return to this thread because she said something she shouldn’t have?
Hopefully, pinay you feel that you are welcome here to come back and explain your point!!

(I think this thread is being read by many but answered by none.)

Certainly, there is a Mormon reading this who could bring some clarity to this issue.

Lax16,

Pinay held her own very well, and has her own opinion about the Catholic teaching she referred to–and I assume it will be OK with her if I clarify that there are profound differences and those outweigh the “similarities” in belief using that source statement she quoted, plus using what people seem to express as their beliefs from what I’ve read on this forum.

I think when she emphasized “apostasy” several times, it should be clear to any reader that apostasy means there was a gradual loss of understanding, and thus a meaning back in 100 AD would move off that meaning and be a completely different meaning in 2011.

As you noted earlier, the lesson in the Gospel Principles manual teaches the simple concept, in simple words. The same concept is taught in the book of Revelation, and in many other places in the New Testament in the teachings of the Savior and of John.

I have no idea whether the forum placed her on a “waiting” status if one of her posts seemed offensive to someone, but that would be the only reason other than her own choice for not responding. (It is end-of-school-year busy time for a mother with children at home, so maybe that is what is happening for her.)

As far as “clarity”, I’ve explained several times about “be like Christ” which means “inherit through His grace what He inherited from His Father through being the Only Begotten Son of God.”

The quality I am most profoundly affected by is being able to be all-loving and all-compassionate, with no personal wrinkles or weaknesses in how one does things in eternity, and with the loving quality of allowing free will choice with no personal agendas intermixed (however well-intended they might be).

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

Pinay held her own very well, and has her own opinion about the Catholic teaching she referred to–and I assume it will be OK with her if I clarify that there are profound differences and those outweigh the “similarities” in belief using that source statement she quoted, plus using what people seem to express as their beliefs from what I’ve read on this forum.

Yes, pinay is always a delight to “talk” to.
The only problem is, she claimed it was “in her notes.” So, she has been instructed on this issue. Parker, it gives me a real sick feeling in my stomach to think someone was misled into thinking there are not major differences between the Catholics and Mormons when it comes to defining who God is.
Thank you for explaining that we have profound differences in this area.

I think when she emphasized “apostasy” several times, it should be clear to any reader that apostasy means there was a gradual loss of understanding, and thus a meaning back in 100 AD would move off that meaning and be a completely different meaning in 2011.

Yes, but it soooo easy to say that there were wicked men and women who did bad things a long time ago - who wouldn’t agree with that?
Or that God wanted to get His people’s attention by sending a prophet to remind us to be good…okay…BUT someone needs to be very clear on LDS teaching on who God Is before converting. That is the BIG stuff.

As you noted earlier, the lesson in the Gospel Principles manual teaches the simple concept, in simple words. The same concept is taught in the book of Revelation, and in many other places in the New Testament in the teachings of the Savior and of John.

No, Parker, nowhere is it taught that God was a man with a beginning and an end and that He had relations with a woman or women. God is the God of the Jewish people and of the Christians. He has no beginning and no end and He is incorporeal.

I have no idea whether the forum placed her on a “waiting” status if one of her posts seemed offensive to someone, but that would be the only reason other than her own choice for not responding. (It is end-of-school-year busy time for a mother with children at home, so maybe that is what is happening for her.)

Usually it says “suspended” under a person’s name if they are under review. However, I understand being very busy with children at home!!

As far as “clarity”, I’ve explained several times about “be like Christ” which means “inherit through His grace what He inherited from His Father through being the Only Begotten Son of God.”

The clarity was specific to pinay’s misunderstanding of who she says God is and how she was taught this from the LDS.

The quality I am most profoundly affected by is being able to be all-loving and all-compassionate, with no personal wrinkles or weaknesses in how one does things in eternity, and with the loving quality of allowing free will choice with no personal agendas intermixed (however well-intended they might be).

The problem is, Mormon missionaries are not telling people up front about the very unorthodox view that Mormons think they will be gods one day - and it appears they are using the Catechism of the Catholic Church to back up their teachings.
Really, pinay let the cat out of the bag.

 

[Inishfree]

Parker, I agree with Lax. I am not disrespecting your beliefs at all. I respect everyone’s choice and feel that we can learn from each other. Understanding breeds tolerance. The way things should be.

I just found it a little disheartening when Mormons tried to say. We are just like Catholics. I would never say this to a Jewish or Muslim person.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, Pinay let the cat out of the bag…and a devious premise at that.

Misquoting the Catechism 460, — saying it means what it most incredibly does not, --by St. Ireneus who fought against Gnosticism—hidden, secret knowledge as is what ironically Mormonism is…not revealed by Christ and His Apostles, ---- as well as the teachings of St. Thomas Aquinas.

Our restoration, our redemption, our new life comes only from Jesus Christ through His Body, Soul, Blood, and Divinity Who remains with us as He promised 2,000 years ago.

Jesus Christ waits for us to adore Him in the Blessed Sacrament on His altar so that we can recollect on Him and be renewed by Him to become more Christlike…

To deliberately misquote the Roman Catechism to say we are alike shows that same disconnect from the revelation of salvation history that was completed by Jesus Christ.

Using false representation of points of our faith as premise – shows rather the sophistry of modern Mormon apologists rather than that of solid rigors of logic. It shows men are succumbing to being independent of God and His ways, not trusting Him, and wanting to become gods themselves.

Some how I see Mormon practices bringing new people in as predatory in how they use naive but open, positive people as Pinay…playing on her locale as just an example of how Catholicism is not true way when it is actually specific, of how people are quickly incorporated into that religion, how it is put on so many members to impose their faith to the constant pressure of living among them, the point of incorporating non-Mormons into their religion without their knowledge or consent through these baptism rites.