LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?

[KathleenGee]

To make matters even more extraordinary, as Christ spoke very simple but life changing words,

The Holy Spirit at Pentecost made all the peoples of different languages understand the Good News of Jesus Christ.

Do not limit God to be as a god.

 

[Tony888]

I just see Mormon penchant for such concepts in support of marriage, really a support to have belief in being a god some day with their own planet…again nothing like this in Sacred Scriptures.

you are so wrong here.
First when speakers have ever referenced someone having a planet, it is metaphorical. It’s biblical foundation is the promise that God has reserved a place for you. Even in the bible it is transleted as place, room, house, and mansion depending upon the translation. All very appropriate metaphores for someone who’s understanding of World geography was limited to their ‘neck of the woods’ and who had no understanding what so ever of a solar system, and the billion of galaxies around us.

Move forward about 1,500 years and why shouldn’t a speaker update the metaphor of God providing us with a place, to reflect the vastly increased scope of God’s creation (billions and billions of planets instead of just the earth)

Combine the above bible teaching with the clear christian teaching that we are meant to become like Christ, and you are the one showing your ignorance of Sacred Scriptures and core catholic doctrine.

Your approach to belittling the LDS is like the person who cuts off their nose to spite their face.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Ok, I got a question on this whole eternal marriage thing.

It is only through marriage that man can obtain the Highest heaven and eternal progession, correct?

next. Man is marriage in a temple sealed marriage Lives a rightous life and dies and is all set to move on. However, his wife is after his death becomes one of the most ungodly women you have everseen. Is he out of luck now and stuck in one of the lower heavens?

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

I’d be interested to know if this specific interpretation of these verses is something you came up with, or if that is a generalized commentary that is commonly taught?

Just read it in context. It offers nothing that needs explaining unless you are trying to show that it must mean something ohter than what it seems to.

I took it from the KJV by the way. The language can be no more plain, and I am not sure it says any different in the Good News Bible (Today’s English Version-TEV):
Rom.7

1] Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2] For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ**; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead,** that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

I speak to them that know the law- He speaks to a doctrinally informed audience.
Verses 2-3 Present an example that his informed audience will recognize of the law’s ineffectiveness after death.clearly discuss matrimony between men and women, stating – to doctrinally onformed listeners, that no marriage bonds continue after death.
Verse 4 affirms that Christians being dead to the law continue eternally in marriage to Christ. THis has some metaphorical content as associated with living as dead to the law and alive in Christ in this life, but it has no bearing on the intent or content of the example of marriage. The audience recognized marriage as a mortal affair only. Paul endorses this view by reinforcing it as an example.

It says it, and no amount of wanting to believe you will be able to have sex forever changes that.

The expressions of paul’s mission in what I wrote relate to nnumerous other things he also wrotee in which he expresses the need to be clear with the truth, as example:

1Cor.14

8] For** if the trumpet** give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

By his own standard an unclear message is ineffective.

 

[KathleenGee]

In Sacred Scriptures,

Jesus Christ says heaven will be filled with many mansions – not planets…Kolob…etc.

 

[KathleenGee]

I do not mean to be bad, but I am simply referring back to the full gospel of Jesus Christ without Moroni…remember, Epistles warn us not to listen to any angel after Christ with a new story–that is anathema…

Joseph Smith’s narrative completely removes Christianity from Christ as apostate. But Mormons are then consider themselves to be the true followers but refuse to name themselves Christians.

There is too much time passed between Pentecost and today. There is too much of an anthropological break of peoples of faith history in comparison between Israel and America.

No dates, no surrounding events…no proof…new stories, deleting the true teachings of Christ…this is a very serious issue of credibility.

 

[Tony888]

In Sacred Scriptures,

Jesus Christ says heaven will be filled with many mansions – not planets…Kolob…etc.

No, you don’t know your scripture. Jesus says God will reserve a **place **for us.
LDS have used the metaphor of a planet but they do not teach everyohne gets a literal planet, just like the Catholics don’t teach everyone gets al literal mansion on the same street as Christ and the Father.

The mention of Kolob is also a metaphor, but I bet you knew that. It’s just to juicy for you to be honest about though, isn’t it!

John 14:2 is translated to use anything from a place, rooms, abodes, dwellings, houses, mansions etc. Below is reputable bible commentary on the verse.

Barnes’ Notes on the Bible
In my Father’s house - Most interpreters understand this of heaven, as the special dwelling-place or palace of God; but it may include the universe, as the abode of the omnipresent God.

Are many mansions - The word rendered “mansions”** means either the act of dwelling in any place** (John 14:23, “we will make our abode with him”), or it means the place where one dwells. It is taken from the verb to remain, and signifies the place where one dwells or remains. It is applied by the Greek writers to the tents or temporary habitations which soldiers pitch in their marches. It denotes a dwelling of less permanency than the word house. It is commonly understood as affirming that in heaven there is ample room to receive all who will come; that therefore the disciples might be sure that they would not be excluded. Some have understood it as affirming that there will be different grades in the joys of heaven; that some of the mansions of the saints will be nearer to God than others, agreeably to 1 Corinthians 15:40-41. But perhaps this passage may have a meaning which has not occurred to interpreters.

 

[Peter_John]

Ok, I got a question on this whole eternal marriage thing.

It is only through marriage that man can obtain the Highest heaven and eternal progession, correct?

next. Man is marriage in a temple sealed marriage Lives a rightous life and dies and is all set to move on. However, his wife is after his death becomes one of the most ungodly women you have everseen. Is he out of luck now and stuck in one of the lower heavens?

I can see planets as a valid metaphorical extension of mansions in a contemporary context. The problem is that it is not where theLDS concept of it comes from, and Christianity did not develop any such metaphor independent of the LDS criptures and teachings which led to their belief. It has noi basis in Biblical Christianity.

 

[KathleenGee]

I do know Scripture…and there is no mention of Kolob…and when you say a special place…outside of tradition…it can be Kolob. ‘Special place’… is not in Scripture either.

The metaphors and level of understanding, in true Revelation always have certainty–and constancy…a tradition of faith that is passed down…and such a thinking is not within Judaism either…

 

[Tony888]

I do know Scripture…and there is no mention of Kolob…and when you say a special place…outside of tradition…it can be Kolob. ‘Special place’… is not in Scripture either.

The metaphors and level of understanding, in true Revelation always have certainty–and constancy…a tradition of faith that is passed down…and such a thinking is not within Judaism either…

I never said Catholic scripture mentioned Kolob (stop deflecting) It was used in LDS scripture as part of a metaphor. It was never used to teach physical astronomy, to locate the address where God lives…

In my early post, I provide independant bible commentary that articulated why any place one ‘is’ or ‘dwells’ can fit as a translation for the metaphor. Neither of us may like the planet metaphor, but it does work given the understanding that God created all the galaxies of planets and stars in our universe.

 

[KathleenGee]

The point is that Christ is sufficient, Tony. The Church itself has many mansions and traditions in this life.

There is a tradition of faith that has maintain a certain constancy within Judeo Christianity. Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega. His Revelation is sufficient. There are too many issues within Mormonism that contradict Christianity’s tradition and understanding of Our Lord and our life with Him, for those who persevere to the end.

We cannot refer to Kolob or planets just as we cannot refer to ourselves as saints.

 

[rainman10]

SteveVH,

Remembering that God is all-knowing about the history of this world, and understanding that **Jesus would protect this most sacred covenant of eternal marriage **by not having it “taken in vain” or in other words, done by thousands of people without authority and without knowledge about what they were doing and thus having them all be deceived by thinking something that was going to be untrue for them, then it makes sense that He would provide an answer to the Sadducees that laid the question to rest for those wanting to choose a justification for having no marriage in what they describe as “heaven”.

I find it very interesting that “Jesus would protect this most sacred covenant of eternal marriage”, but not bother to protect His Church, even though He made the promise that He would.

 

[ParkerD]

I find it very interesting that “Jesus would protect this most sacred covenant of eternal marriage”, but not bother to protect His Church, even though He made the promise that He would.

Jesus protected all the covenants of His church, and fulfilled His promise that He would send the Holy Spirit to the apostles and thus be with them. He does not, however, force the Holy Spirit onto people, ever.

The gates of hell will not prevail against His congregation of believers who are built upon His rock, and He fulfills that promise, always.

 

[ParkerD]

Ok, I got a question on this whole eternal marriage thing.

It is only through marriage that man can obtain the Highest heaven and eternal progession, correct?

next. Man is marriage in a temple sealed marriage Lives a rightous life and dies and is all set to move on. However, his wife is after his death becomes one of the most ungodly women you have ever seen. Is he out of luck now and stuck in one of the lower heavens?

Hi, Scott,

Sorry to have kept you waiting for an answer.

As you might gather from Jesus’ teachings about how an individual is accountable and has a personal relationship with Him, but yet the man and woman were to have been “joined together” and not been “put asunder” and were to have been “help meets” for each other–

since the man in your example was “faithful” to his covenants, but the woman was not, then perhaps he will be hoping as he observes her from the spirit world, that she will come to her senses and repent of her sins, and change;

but if not, then he has all the promises for his faithfulness, and it will be worked out before his resurrection about whether he has another marriage or whether his wife repents at some point before her resurrection, and “the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband” in that instance, if she repents before her resurrection and thus places herself in the arms of mercy of the Savior and His redeeming grace, and joins her husband in becoming faithful.

 

[Peter_John]

The gates of hell will not prevail against His congregation of believers who are built upon His rock, and He fulfills that promise, always.

So you maintain that the early Christians who followed contradictory beliefs and practices to what Mormonism teaches today may have been believers, but were not really built upon His rock.

Let’s take that all the way. Since your blood atonement heresy does not extend to replace water baptism altogether, you do not recognize baptism of blood. Since you believe that proxy baptisms still need doing for those raised in other faiths who God recognizes as Christians at heart, though they never heard of Christ, you reject the baptism of desire.

This means:
All of those early Christians – like St’s Perpetua and Felicity who went to horrible deaths rather than deny the Christ (This should echo Moroni, “and I will not deny the Christ”) – died for a false faith (since what they practiced certainly disagreed with Mormonism) and had to wait 18 centuries of our time in Spirit Prison until Joseph Smith received the keys for proxy baptism before they could have redemption there.

Countless Christians who believed in transubstantiation, prayed proscribed repetitive prayers, accepted that Jesus and the Father were one (even if trinity were yet to be defined), and held to the Apostle’s Creed (which Joseph Smith called an abomination) faced execution in multiudes. These multitudes faced their executioners – whether mobs, animals, soldiers or lone executioners – with such surrender and grace, such love for their killers , that sometimes more of their killers converted than there were victims who died (that should remind you of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies).

You would hold that they were not validly baptized, so they, too, all went into a probationary state at death.

When St. Boniface went to Germany in the 8th Century the alleged Great Apostasy should certainly have been complete. He went into one sacred grove and cut down a tree in a miraculous manner (The Book of Mormon’s Jacob: “Even the trees obey us.”). He and other missionaries to the barbarians converted kings and rulers, who brought all their families and subjects with them (evocative of Ammon and Lamoni).

By your description and carefully framed qualifiers, none of them were on Christ’s rock because they were not validly baptized. So, they all died not to find a reward for their faith but to suffer at the least waiting through centuries – and they may still be suffering this wait, according to your doctrine, if the baptisms have not been completed for them.

Interesting that Wilford Woodruff claims America’s founders (many of whom were Freemasons) appeared to him and asked for the work to be done, but no account I know of says any of the perhaps millions of martyrs did, though they had waited longer. Though I guess that would have drawn direct attention of LDS members to the actual history upon which the Book of Mormon stories are based.If they think they have been in purgatory now, they likely never would accept the LDS work for them, and never qualify for the Celestial Kingdom, after all they have done from Faith in Christ.

 

[Peter_John]

I never said Catholic scripture mentioned Kolob … .

I think the point of her phrasing is to not acknowledge a uniquely LDS source as valid scripture, even as disregards your shamelessly subjective, biased, and incomplete exegesis.

 

[ParkerD]

So you maintain that the early Christians who followed contradictory beliefs and practices to what Mormonism teaches today may have been believers, but were not really built upon His rock.

…

By your description and carefully framed qualifiers, none of them were on Christ’s rock because they were not validly baptized. So, they all died not to find a reward for their faith but to suffer at the least waiting through centuries – and they may still be suffering this wait, according to your doctrine, if the baptisms have not been completed for them.

Interesting that Wilford Woodruff claims America’s founders (many of whom were Freemasons) appeared to him and asked for the work to be done, but no account I know of says any of the perhaps millions of martyrs did, though they had waited longer. Though I guess that would have drawn direct attention of LDS members to the actual history upon which the Book of Mormon stories are based.If they think they have been in purgatory now, they likely never would accept the LDS work for them, and never qualify for the Celestial Kingdom, after all they have done from Faith in Christ.

Peter John,

Here, again, was what I had written about “His rock”:

The gates of hell will not prevail against His congregation of believers who are built upon His rock, and He fulfills that promise, always.

I have explained repeatedly in this forum that “His rock” has to do with a personal knowledge, confirmed by revelation through the Holy Ghost, that Jesus is the Christ meaning the true Messiah and Redeemer of the world. When they have that knowledge, then though the rains and hail come…and beat upon them, they will not fall, because they are founded upon a rock… (see Helaman 5:12) (see also Matthew 7:25)

Thus that relationship between the person and Christ is what carries them through any hardship or trial or the “shafts in the whirlwind”, and they keep the Spirit because they keep repenting and keep listening to the Spirit guiding their growth, change, and sanctification. What counts is what they do with what they know, and whether they keep repenting of their sins and growing and changing through being guided to grow and change.

I have no basis for knowing whether any of the examples you mentioned were experiencing personal revelation in their lives and thus had the Holy Ghost guiding them. I would assume each of those examples went to “paradise” at their death.

As far as “purgatory”, I don’t use that term at all.

As far as the spirit world, I view “paradise” as being the place where all the righteous go after their death, whatever their religion (i.e. it doesn’t matter what religion if they kept the commandments and had love for others as their basis for how they lived) but “what did they do with what they knew” mattering.

Those in paradise will be learning and growing while there, not suffering for their sins but repenting of them if they still need to do that. They don’t need to “wait” until their baptism for the dead is completed. What counts is their personal repentance and their personal relationship with Christ as their Redeemer and Savior. Those who need the gift of the Holy Ghost will be glad to get it, yes, but they will have occupied their time with good things in the meantime, and will have been in a condition called “rest”.

Those people who had not been keeping the commandments during their life, go to “spirit prison” when they die which would be somewhat similar to “purgatory” for some, and they will find redemption from their sins as they repent of them and find Christ and His redemption and His redeeming grace.

They don’t need to “wait” until their baptism for the dead is completed for them personally. What counts is their personal repentance. Christ rescues them from being “behind” the gates of hell, and they are set free when they repent and come unto Him with full purpose and with complete change and sincere intent in their inner being.

 

[KathleenGee]

Personal and subjective interpretation is forbidden by the rock, St. Peter, and it is the practice of 2,000 years of faith history.

There is no record of any one possessing Mormon beliefs 2,000 years ago in countries where Christianity was beginning.

I watched this video taken in England commemorating the feast of Corpus Cristi…the Body of Christ this morning…the attendee gives praises of Who Christ is in Sacred Scripture referring to Him throughout the books of the Bible…assembled by the apostolic Catholic faith almost 2,000 years ago.

Historical fact and instituted faith can stand up – for those with proper academic discernment to beliefs severed from historical fact based on personal and invalidating beliefs.

Listen to our praises of Jesus Christ and the reality of Who He is…

www.ncregister.com…flash video—‘Every Knee Shall …’ showing a Capuchin friar bringing the Eucharistic Lord to the center of the market place…listen and see the focus of our faith.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Peter John,

Here, again, was what I had written about “His rock”:

The gates of hell will not prevail against His congregation of believers who are built upon His rock, and He fulfills that promise, always.

I.

Parker
Here are a few of them
catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=48
He has also fulfilled His promise with me. My Lord and God Jesus is my everything. In Him everything falls into place, even in suffering.

Let us know that you read about these two.

In Christ Jesus
r

 

[KathleenGee]

Here is another,

www.Bibleprobe.com/catecombs/htm

It also shares the diary of St. Perpetua…incredible…and shows ancient tombs…the cemetary of Callixta became the cemetary for the Catholic Church…an archaeological document in itself of our people.