LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?

[ParkerD]

The post was in a different thread so you might not have seen it. Sorry about that.

…“Mormonism ecclesiology does not have a doctrine of a “mystical body,” but thinks of the church only as an organized whole but not go further by considering it as real unity, that is, literally one body. Consequently, they cannot, on the basis of their ecclesiology, think of a more profound union of human of persons than a biological family, and so it seems to them a great loss that we should cease to be married to our spouses in heaven. If one understands that the divine sonship in which all Christians participate constitutes us as a real family, and that unity in the Holy Spirit is a deeper unity than union in the flesh, than it is impossible to see how the continuation of a marriage would be anything but superfluous. But Mormons don’t get that, so they think continued marriage is necessary for happiness and they interpret the end of marriage in death simply as a loss, with not further context.”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=7983356#post7983356

Hi, Jay53,

I realize you had referred to the part about angels, but I think the more important loss of understanding about the whole topic of the resurrection and marriage and Latter-day Saint beliefs, is shown in the above paragraph.

Soren1’s post ignores a whole concept that is known within Latter-day Saint doctrine, which is that there is a part of the doctrine of priesthood that includes fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers, and so forth having a presiding role in their family over their posterity–and that kind of presiding role is expressed in what Abraham was told about his posterity, and what Jacob (Israel) was told about his posterity. There is an inter-connection within that presiding role and within all those within an extended family who “preside” which makes them indeed “one body” meaning “one interconnected, united group with patriarchal leaders and an organized priesthood.”

That is why Hosea and Isaiah would have rejoiced as they foresee and prophesy about all the children of Israel finally being united (tribes of Judah and Ephraim being the leader tribes who finally are united, thus showing that all the tribes are finally united).

Another doctrine that Soren1’s post ignores is the Savior’s intercessory prayer which the Latter-day Saints believe in more strongly and more precisely than using the words “mystical body” to describe the oneness which the Savior prayed that His followers would have. Latter-day Saints are very much aware that they are taught and believe, “Be one, and if ye are not one, ye are not mine.” This oneness branches out on many, many levels of meaning including the meaning of Zion, where “there are no poor among them”, and the meaning of no disunity, no contention, no strife, no vain-glorying, with a real feeling of true compassion and charity (the pure love of Christ) among all within Zion for each other.

Latter-day Saints differentiate between marriage being a “union in the flesh” and marriage being a “union in spirit, in taking strength from one another, in building one another, in having unselfishness of the deepest kind for one another”–and the loss of both a sense of a patriarchal priesthood brotherhood and father-son relationships that are bound within a priesthood vitality, and the loss of husband-wife particular relationships and historical context from having lived together on this earth, would be viewed as an unhappy loss, not a gain in any sense.

But that doesn’t mean others who have those losses won’t be “happy”–it means they will have received the kind of happiness they desired and sought after and rejoice in the happiness they prayed for and lived for, with loving relationships but missing out on spiritual oneness within an eternal marriage relationship and missing out on patriarchal priesthood bonds in families in eternity.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Holy Spirit has provided Christ’s followers the intent of Our Savior’s teachings, and there is uniformity and unity of belief.

I must admit that Mormons greatly misunderstand Matthew’s account of Christ. It is also reflective of Matthew as well as he was the one who was particularly drawn to Christ’s genealogy. Matthew is quite clear in the distinctions.

 

[Jay53]

Hi, Jay53,

I realize you had referred to the part about angels, but I think the more important loss of understanding about the whole topic of the resurrection and marriage and Latter-day Saint beliefs, is shown in the above paragraph.

Soren1’s post ignores a whole concept that is known within Latter-day Saint doctrine, which is that there is a part of the doctrine of priesthood that includes fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers, and so forth having a presiding role in their family over their posterity–and that kind of presiding role is expressed in what Abraham was told about his posterity, and what Jacob (Israel) was told about his posterity. There is an inter-connection within that presiding role and within all those within an extended family who “preside” which makes them indeed “one body” meaning “one interconnected, united group with patriarchal leaders and an organized priesthood.”

That is why Hosea and Isaiah would have rejoiced as they foresee and prophesy about all the children of Israel finally being united (tribes of Judah and Ephraim being the leader tribes who finally are united, thus showing that all the tribes are finally united).

Another doctrine that Soren1’s post ignores is the Savior’s intercessory prayer which the Latter-day Saints believe in more strongly and more precisely than using the words “mystical body” to describe the oneness which the Savior prayed that His followers would have. Latter-day Saints are very much aware that they are taught and believe, “Be one, and if ye are not one, ye are not mine.” This oneness branches out on many, many levels of meaning including the meaning of Zion, where “there are no poor among them”, and the meaning of no disunity, no contention, no strife, no vain-glorying, with a real feeling of true compassion and charity (the pure love of Christ) among all within Zion for each other.

Latter-day Saints differentiate between marriage being a “union in the flesh” and marriage being a “union in spirit, in taking strength from one another, in building one another, in having unselfishness of the deepest kind for one another”–and the loss of both a sense of a patriarchal priesthood brotherhood and father-son relationships that are bound within a priesthood vitality, and the loss of husband-wife particular relationships and historical context from having lived together on this earth, would be viewed as an unhappy loss, not a gain in any sense.

But that doesn’t mean others who have those losses won’t be “happy”–it means they will have received the kind of happiness they desired and sought after and rejoice in the happiness they prayed for and lived for, with loving relationships but missing out on spiritual oneness within an eternal marriage relationship and missing out on patriarchal priesthood bonds in families in eternity.

I think your response completely ignores the issue about the angels. Perhaps because you don’t have an answer.

And you always say stuff like “receive the kind of happiness one seeks” or similar wording. I always wonder how LDS will feel when they find out what they were seeking is in fact NOT what God has in store for us - will they be disappointed?? Rhetorical question - I don’t want/expect you to answer that.

 

[ParkerD]

The Holy Spirit has provided Christ’s followers the intent of Our Savior’s teachings, and there is uniformity and unity of belief.

…

Kathleen,

What you ascribe to the Holy Spirit with regards to understanding some of the writings in Matthew, I ascribe to personal preferences and desired outcomes for the followers to feel that their options have been eliminated, and what you ascribe as uniformity and unity of belief by the means you have pointed out, is not the Savior’s way at all–because it means free will choice is hindered and He would not do that.

The oneness that He desires humankind to have, will be achieved only by their free will choices getting them there–not by feeling forced or feeling that they have no other options.

 

[ParkerD]

I think your response completely ignores the issue about the angels. Perhaps because you don’t have an answer.

Jay53,

No, I ignored it because there was a more important issue to write about from the post.

As far as angels, here are some aspects of the Latter-day Saint point of view:

1. We speak of the angel Gabriel as being Noah, so of course that means angels who came to this earth as messengers had lived or would live on this earth at some point, and many of them if not all are married and will be in the Celestial Kingdom in their resurrection.
2. The angels who sang in the choirs heralding the Savior’s birth could be either spirits who had not yet lived on the earth, or spirits who had already lived on the earth such as Gabriel (Noah). This could include children, of which those who die before age eight go to the Celestial Kingdom in their resurrection.
3. There is a distinction between angels in the resurrection, and sons of God in the resurrection. Angels in that sense (in their resurrected body) would be those who qualify for greatly praising and greatly serving God, and rejoicing therein, but by their choices do not inherit “all that the Father has” nor “all that the Son has” because they chose differently than to do the Father’s will in all things (such as choosing not to obey the commandment given to Adam and Eve about marriage), but yet have repented to the extent of understanding that it was their choice they made and they can accept that and rejoice in receiving what they desired, which is still going to be joyful service and a joyful situation, just not a fullness of joy as the Father has.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,

No, I ignored it because there was a more important issue to write about from the post.

As far as angels, here are some aspects of the Latter-day Saint point of view:

1. We speak of the angel Gabriel as being Noah, so of course that means angels who came to this earth as messengers had lived or would live on this earth at some point, and many of them if not all are married and will be in the Celestial Kingdom in their resurrection.
2. The angels who sang in the choirs heralding the Savior’s birth could be either spirits who had not yet lived on the earth, or spirits who had already lived on the earth such as Gabriel (Noah). This could include children, of which those who die before age eight go to the Celestial Kingdom in their resurrection.
3. There is a distinction between angels in the resurrection, and sons of God in the resurrection. Angels in that sense (in their resurrected body) would be those who qualify for greatly praising and greatly serving God, and rejoicing therein, but by their choices do not inherit “all that the Father has” nor “all that the Son has” because they chose differently than to do the Father’s will in all things (such as choosing not to obey the commandment given to Adam and Eve about marriage), but yet have repented to the extent of understanding that it was their choice they made and they can accept that and rejoice in receiving what they desired, which is still going to be joyful service and a joyful situation, just not a fullness of joy as the Father has.

And all of this is LDS speculation and not based on anything Biblical or anything that Jesus taught us or that the Apostles believed.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Kathleen,

What you ascribe to the Holy Spirit with regards to understanding some of the writings in Matthew, I ascribe to personal preferences and desired outcomes for the followers to feel that their options have been eliminated, and what you ascribe as uniformity and unity of belief by the means you have pointed out, is not the Savior’s way at all–because it means free will choice is hindered and He would not do that.

The oneness that He desires humankind to have, will be achieved only by their free will choices getting them there–not by feeling forced or feeling that they have no other options.

Is doing the will of God, the will of Christ a hinder to free will? The revelations I had about the Catholic faith, while learning about the faith came natural as I had many of the same even before I knocked on that door. The same revelations that Chritsians have come to spanning 2000 years. reality to me, very authentic. It’s all about free will that is aligned with His. The Catholic Church has given me this. The Saviors way for me is His love for sinners. I have only one option and this option is to follow Him through my confessions along with prayer that brings me closer to Him.

Knowing that He is always very close to me at all times.

The oneness He desires for all is to become One with Him and the Father just as they are One, within the Most Holy Trinity. This is Marriage for us Christians.

There is no greater Marriage that my wife and I will ever know, no greater love than this. To spend eternity with Jesus, to be One with Jesus. To share in what He has always had with the Father (LOVE)

The world cannot offer this as Christ offers this. The Cross of Christ is our hope in Him alone. He is to be loved above all things whether on earth or in Heaven. Our focus is on Him, Our failures are given up to Him. Our joy is given up to Him. All praise goes to Him, all glory goes to Him.

I have had several options available to me for all of my life up to this point today. Today I choose the Most Holy Mass, to be in this unique relationship with my Lord and God. This originates from the Holy Spirit of which I have partially surrendered to as I still am a sinner in transition. Since becoming Catholic I have never been so free. It is in choosing Him that true freedom abounds. I personally have chosen to pick up the Cross and follow Him within the confines of His church, His very body that He established for us., to nourish us, to forgive us, to love us as we are in order for us to become as He is. To become One with Him. Nothing forced on this created being, Created by Him for Him, where I stand, rather accepted in humility.

 

[ParkerD]

And all of this is LDS speculation and not based on anything Biblical or anything that Jesus taught us or that the Apostles believed.

Jay53,

No, it isn’t speculation and it is Biblical that there is such a thing as becoming a “son of God” and there is a distinction between that and being “an angel”. It is also Biblical that “there are celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”

Those resurrected bodies being described by Paul are in their resurrected state when they receive the body that they lived to receive based on their choices in life, and the degree to which they sought after and followed the Father’s will in all things.

John writes about the inheritance of sons of God, which is the same inheritance as Christ had by right, which He enables others to have by His atoning grace through their repentance, covenant-making, covenant-keeping, and being perfected in Him, becoming “begotten sons and daughters unto God”.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,

No, it isn’t speculation and it is Biblical that there is such a thing as becoming a “son of God” and there is a distinction between that and being “an angel”. It is also Biblical that “there are celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”

Those resurrected bodies being described by Paul are in their resurrected state when they receive the body that they lived to receive based on their choices in life, and the degree to which they sought after and followed the Father’s will in all things.

John writes about the inheritance of sons of God, which is the same inheritance as Christ had by right, which He enables others to have by His atoning grace through their repentance, covenant-making, covenant-keeping, and being perfected in Him, becoming “begotten sons and daughters unto God”.

No, what is speculation is how the LDS have interpreted and twisted the Scriptures.

 

[ParkerD]

No, what is speculation is how the LDS have interpreted and twisted the Scriptures.

Jay53,
That belief works for you and is your right to have and hold and hang onto. It reflects what people do with information that is different than their expectations and their cultural traditions. They are going to call anything else “twisted”. So it’s to be expected, and it’s just fine, and have a wonderful day.

 

[Jay53]

Jay53,
That belief works for you and is your right to have and hold and hang onto. It reflects what people do with information that is different than their expectations and their cultural traditions. They are going to call anything else “twisted”. So it’s to be expected, and it’s just fine, and have a wonderful day.

Of course you would say that!! You hold on to YOUR beliefs because they work for you and you feel the need to be “exalted” - perhaps you feel that should be your reward for whatever you do on this earth. Whatever floats your boat. But you can’t claim that this is what Jesus or His Apostles taught. There is NO evidence of such. The only way to back up such twisted claims is through Joseph Smith. And we were warned against the angel preaching another gospel (e.g. teaching that one must be married to reach a “higher” status in Heaven.) And it IS just fine - I have no expectation of changing your mind - that is up to the Holy Spirit. I was just curious as to how the LDS answer the points that soren1 raised about the angels. Hope you have a wonderful day too!!

 

[Peter_John]

No, it isn’t speculation and it is Biblical that there is such a thing as becoming a “son of God” and there is a distinction between that and being “an angel”. It is also Biblical that “there are celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.”

Understanding this reference from both an LDS and Catholic perspective, I have to agree with you on this statement, as specifically what you have written here refutes LDS doctrine.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that everyone born on Earth is already a son or duaghter of God from the premortal state. It is Biblical that we become sons and daughters of God theough accepting Christ and joining His covenant people. There is a difference between being born Children of God and having the power through Christ to become Children of God.

Paul says there are bodies Celestial and bodies Terrestrial. It says nothing of bodies Telestial. Celestial means of the heavens. Terrestrial means of this Earth. Paul is not discussing different degrees of glory in the world to come. He is talking about the differnce between the state of our bodies in mortality, on Earth “Terrestrial” and in Heaven, “Celestial” Celestial means heavenly. Terestrial means Earthly.

The reference can only be appropriated to support Joseph Smith’s teachings by taking it out of context.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Understanding this reference from both an LDS and Catholic perspective, I have to agree with you on this statement, as specifically what you have written here refutes LDS doctrine.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that everyone born on Earth is already a son or duaghter of God from the premortal state. It is Biblical that we become sons and daughters of God theough accepting Christ and joining His covenant people. There is a difference between being born Children of God and having the power through Christ to become Children of God.

Paul says there are bodies Celestial and bodies Terrestrial. It says nothing of bodies Telestial. Celestial means of the heavens. Terrestrial means of this Earth. Paul is not discussing different degrees of glory in the world to come. He is talking about the differnce between the state of our bodies in mortality, on Earth “Terrestrial” and in Heaven, “Celestial” Celestial means heavenly. Terestrial means Earthly.

The reference can only be appropriated to support Joseph Smith’s teachings by taking it out of context.

“It is Biblical that we become sons and daughters of God theough accepting Christ and joining His covenant people. There is a difference between being born Children of God and having the power through Christ to become Children of God.”

A Christian should understand the difference between our Creator and His Creation.
That Jesus was not created, He is. I on the other hand was created for Him out of love, a love that cannot be contained. The scripture above regarding bodies when placed into its proper Christian context of truth can go a long way, and it did help to converting one like me to Christ. Thank you for your comments on it Peter.

In Christ

 

[Peter_John]

Soren1’s post ignores a whole concept that is known within Latter-day Saint doctrine, which is that there is a part of the doctrine of priesthood that includes fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers, and so forth having a presiding role in their family over their posterity–and that kind of presiding role is expressed in what Abraham was told about his posterity, and what Jacob (Israel) was told about his posterity. There is an inter-connection within that presiding role and within all those within an extended family who “preside” which makes them indeed “one body” meaning “one interconnected, united group with patriarchal leaders and an organized priesthood.”

That is why Hosea and Isaiah would have rejoiced as they foresee and prophesy about all the children of Israel finally being united (tribes of Judah and Ephraim being the leader tribes who finally are united, thus showing that all the tribes are finally united).

Okay – let me get this straight: You are saying that there is division of authority among resurrected humanity in eternity, yet somehow we are all one? It doesn’t sound like you understand what you believe very well, due to its internal inconsistencies.

You cannot believe and apply the Savior’s Intercessory prayer without believeing that Jesus and the father are one. if they are two distinct indivudals only, it negates his words in the prayer. recognizing this and His intent for us to share in the nature of their existence.

Hosea taught that God would not abandon His covenant people no matter how much they cheat on Him. Mormonism teaches that God did abandon them for greater than 1500 years.

You consider it scripture that we will have adantages over each other in the next life:

Doctrine & Covenants 130
18Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.

 

[ParkerD]

…you feel the need to be “exalted” …

Hi, again, Jay53,

Just for the record, the reason I feel the desire to be exalted is that Jesus said “enter into the joy of thy Lord,” and John wrote “he that overcometh shall inherit all things,…and he shall be my son” in which vision John was seeing what God wanted us to understand was both possible and attainable through Christ–so if I were not to feel the desire to be exalted, then I would be turning my back on the Bible which I do not intend to do, but rather do desire to have the kind of love They have, the kind of compassion They have, and the kind of joy They are able to have that They are willing to share freely through the means They have provided.

 

[ParkerD]

Understanding this reference from both an LDS and Catholic perspective, I have to agree with you on this statement, as specifically what you have written here refutes LDS doctrine.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that everyone born on Earth is already a son or duaghter of God from the premortal state. It is Biblical that we become sons and daughters of God theough accepting Christ and joining His covenant people. There is a difference between being born Children of God and having the power through Christ to become Children of God.

Paul says there are bodies Celestial and bodies Terrestrial. It says nothing of bodies Telestial. Celestial means of the heavens. Terrestrial means of this Earth. Paul is not discussing different degrees of glory in the world to come. He is talking about the differnce between the state of our bodies in mortality, on Earth “Terrestrial” and in Heaven, “Celestial” Celestial means heavenly. Terestrial means Earthly.

The reference can only be appropriated to support Joseph Smith’s teachings by taking it out of context.

Peter John,

The context uses the word “glory”, which to most people familiar with the Bible would be a word having to do with the next life, not this one. He also was writing specifically about the resurrection, which means that which will happen after we die and after the spirit world.

A wish of peace to all.

 

[ParkerD]

Okay – let me get this straight: You are saying that there is division of authority among resurrected humanity in eternity, yet somehow we are all one? It doesn’t sound like you understand what you believe very well, due to its internal inconsistencies.

You cannot believe and apply the Savior’s Intercessory prayer without believeing that Jesus and the father are one. if they are two distinct indivudals only, it negates his words in the prayer. recognizing this and His intent for us to share in the nature of their existence.

Hosea taught that God would not abandon His covenant people no matter how much they cheat on Him. Mormonism teaches that God did abandon them for greater than 1500 years.

You consider it scripture that we will have adantages over each other in the next life:

Peter John,

There can be organization within the eternal worlds and that will not be different than what Jesus prayed for in His intercessory prayer. Being one with Them does not require that there be no organization, no priesthood, no communication with love and harmony between individuals and within families including a patriarchal understanding about families living in harmonious joy and rejoicing.

The advantages having to do with our having gained “principles of intelligence” have to do with having learned something that someone else will still have the opportunity to learn, so it means the “advantage” just means having learned it sooner, and thus being able to grow in learning something else, “climbing a ladder step by step” as you would be familiar that Joseph Smith taught.

It is not a disadvantage to gain knowledge and greater faith. Peter wrote about that same concept in his epistles, so it should come as no surprise to a student of the Bible.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

There can be organization within the eternal worlds and that will not be different than what Jesus prayed for in His intercessory prayer. Being one with Them does not require that there be no organization, no priesthood, no communication with love and harmony between individuals and within families including a patriarchal understanding about families living in harmonious joy and rejoicing.

The advantages having to do with our having gained “principles of intelligence” have to do with having learned something that someone else will still have the opportunity to learn, so it means the “advantage” just means having learned it sooner, and thus being able to grow in learning something else, “climbing a ladder step by step” as you would be familiar that Joseph Smith taught.

It is not a disadvantage to gain knowledge and greater faith. Peter wrote about that same concept in his epistles, so it should come as no surprise to a student of the Bible.

So, in LDS theology, some will have more of an advantage than others in the Celestial Kingdom, or any other Kingdoms

 

[Jay53]

Hi, again, Jay53,

Just for the record, the reason I feel the desire to be exalted is that Jesus said “enter into the joy of thy Lord,” and John wrote “he that overcometh shall inherit all things,…and he shall be my son” in which vision John was seeing what God wanted us to understand was both possible and attainable through Christ–so if I were not to feel the desire to be exalted, then I would be turning my back on the Bible which I do not intend to do, but rather do desire to have the kind of love They have, the kind of compassion They have, and the kind of joy They are able to have that They are willing to share freely through the means They have provided.

“Enter into the joy of thy Lord” DOES NOT mean or in any way suggest the Mormon belief of exaltation. Simply being in the presence of God SHOULD be enough for one.

 

[ParkerD]

So, in LDS theology, some will have more of an advantage than others in the Celestial Kingdom, or any other Kingdoms

Peter John,

I assume you have asked a question, and if not it should have been a question.

“World to come” would mean the spirit world where there is still learning going on preparatory to our resurrection. After our resurrection, there will still be learning going on also, as Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught.

So the “advantage” has to do with a readiness for learning and a readiness for gaining greater faith, which means the person “arrives” sooner on the “ladder” of knowledge to additional wisdom and insight and faith–but since others “arrive” later, there will still be the oneness of all having “arrived” once they attain exaltation if they have been worthy of that through covenant keeping and through the Savior’s atoning grace.

There is also the “advantage” of being able to help in the Father’s work through teaching others, so it is not the kind of self-centered process that your statement or question seemed to imply.