LDS - Celestial Marriage

[zerinus]

Oh so are not all LDS marriages “eternal” in the sense that they’re Celestial Marriages?

God bless,

Only LDS marriages that are solemnized in the temples by the authority of the priesthood are eternal. Of course, all LDS are encouraged to get married, or to solemnize their marriages in this way; and I think I am safe in saying that all faithful Mormons do (although there are some that don’t). But I was referring mainly to those who are not Mormons. This ordinance is only available to faithful members of our Church; and they are a small minority compared to those who are not.

 

[ParkerD]

No, marriage is unnecessary after death. Those who are admitted into the presence of God (what Christians call “the beatific vision”) will all be united in Christ (He being the vine, we being the branches) in such complete intimacy and unashamed honesty that any present earthly relationship (including marriage) will pale in comparison. Of course we will still treasure those who, on earth, helped us to salvation (my wife, children, parents, siblings, teachers, pastors, friends and confidants) but all earthly relationships will give way to the complete and honest intimacy without guile that all in God’s presence will share. That is the way God lives in the Trinity (the real family) - completely open and honest, completely truthful, completely Himself, completely loving, completely in the moment every moment. When we are adopted into His family, we will live that way, too. Why would we need marriage?

Paul or anyone else,
I still would really appreciate having some kind of description beyond the vague “beatific vision” and the “completely in the moment every moment” of what you and they will be doing for thousands and millions of years to come. “In the moment” doing what, precisely?

Also, to other readers since Paul brought up a subject he disparages but knows nothing about:

The LDS belief is that spirits are “organized” from a form of matter or energy that is described using the word “intelligence”, and each intelligence has distinctive individuality. Each intelligence lived before being organized to a more advanced condition of being called a spirit being, and that advancement happened for each mortal person during a pre-mortal life where we became spirits and lived in the presence of Heavenly Father.

The idea that spirits were brought forth by the same process whereby children are born into mortality, with a “sperm spirit” and “spirit DNA” and an “egg spirit” and a union of those within a mother’s womb, is a notion that does not make sense and is not taught within Mormonism, though some few women or men might believe that if they have not really thought deeply about the whole subject.

 

[amontoya]

Paul or anyone else,
I still would really appreciate having some kind of description beyond the vague “beatific vision” and the “completely in the moment every moment” of what you and they will be doing for thousands and millions of years to come. “In the moment” doing what, precisely?

Worshipping the Almighty Blessed Trinity.

Also, to other readers since Paul brought up a subject he disparages but knows nothing about:

The LDS belief is that spirits are “organized” from a form of matter or energy that is described using the word “intelligence”, and each intelligence has distinctive individuality. Each intelligence lived before being organized to a more advanced condition of being called a spirit being, and that advancement happened for each mortal person during a pre-mortal life where we became spirits and lived in the presence of Heavenly Father.

To me, this sounds alot like scientology.

 

[TheosisM]

Worshipping the Almighty Blessed Trinity.

See, many Mormons, when asking about the traditional beliefs on Heaven, are disturbed because they will frequently ask what we will be “doing” in Heaven, as in, activities. For Catholics, knowing that we will be in the eternal, uninhibited presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with our families (hopefully if they are saved as well), as well as the entire communion of saints, partaking in the divine nature (theosis), is more than enough to try to comprehend. And of course those in Heaven now (while they will not have the full experience of Heaven until after the resurrection) also pray for the saints on earth. Mormons have concepts such as being spirit missionaries in the spirit world to those in prison, having eternal increase (spirit children), etc. A common question asked by many Mormons to traditional Christians is whether “all” we will be doing is singing hymns or Gregorian chants for eternity (I believe I saw that statement either here or on another forum).

 

[ParkerD]

Because Catholics don’t have a great reverence toward marriage?

Not according to PaulDupre, who wrote:

Those who are admitted into the presence of God (what Christians call “the beatific vision”) will all be united in Christ (He being the vine, we being the branches) in such complete intimacy and unashamed honesty that any present earthly relationship (including marriage) will pale in comparison. Of course we will still treasure those who, on earth, helped us to salvation (my wife, children, parents, siblings, teachers, pastors, friends and confidants) but all earthly relationships will give way to the complete and honest intimacy without guile that all in God’s presence will share. That is the way God lives in the Trinity (the real family) - completely open and honest, completely truthful, completely Himself, completely loving, completely in the moment every moment. When we are adopted into His family, we will live that way, too. Why would we need marriage?

And why do priests and nuns not “need marriage” now? It would appear because it would “pale in comparison” to the “intimacy and unashamed honesty” of an earthly relationship. I don’t call those feelings and attitudes “a great reverence toward marriage” nor certainly the idea of celibate priests who are in some sort of higher standing with God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, you see, only Mormons truly love their families. We Christians are mere “brute beasts”, to quote John Taylor and Brigham Young. If we really cared for our families, we would be LDS. Any TBM will tell you that.

Reminds me of when my brother married outside of a LDS temple. My dad told me they didn’t really love each other.

 

[TheosisM]

Not according to PaulDupre, who wrote:

And why do priests and nuns not “need marriage” now? It would appear because it would “pale in comparison” to the “intimacy and unashamed honesty” of an earthly relationship. I don’t call those feelings and attitudes “a great reverence toward marriage” nor certainly the idea of celibate priests who are in some sort of higher standing with God.

I don’t see anything in what Paul said that shows that he (or Catholics by generalization) doesn’t have a great reverence for marriage. What we experience on earth is nothing compared to the experiences of Heaven, in the eternal presence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Having a great reverence for marriage does not lead to the conclusion of eternal marriage.

The Catholic Church has both married and celibate priests, with the majority of the married priests being found in the Eastern Catholic churches. I’m not sure of where you get the idea that celibate priests are in some sort of higher standing with God. We are all called to different ways of serving and worshipping God. Celibacy, whether as a nun, deacon, priest, religious order, or as laity, has obvious symbolism as to one’s relationship with God. Likewise, marriage also has obvious symbolism as to one’s relationship with God. This is not an either/or situation, as it seems you are portraying it as, but that, as Catholics clearly revere holy matrimony (especially when one knows about the Church’s views on divorce), we also believe that celibacy is also honorable, and is another way that one can devote their life to God.

 

[grandfather]

The term beatific vision is used to describe what no one has seen. Heaven is a place that we can not comprehend, based on earthly experience, the things we know here. We can have no direct knowledge of God. So when Jesus teaches He teaches by analogy. The kingdom of heaven is like unto a sower who sows, or some other analogy. The larvae does not know what it will be like to be a butterfly as it spins itself into a cocoon. It emerges in a different form and flies, but it is the same creature that crawled around munching leaves.

If you think heaven will be like unto what you know here and you will do the same things as you do here, walk around, makes a pizza, have sex, take a nap, eat pie, drink coffee (heh-heh), or beer, then the above concept makes no sense.

But scripture says no eye has seen nor ear heard what God has in store for us. It is beyond our earthly comprehension. It talks about what we are becoming and our inability to understand it. From that perspective, asking the question what we will be doing makes no sense.

Scripture talks about the angels in God’s presence shielding their eyes from His glory. The great earthly souls cast down their crowns before Him and cry out holy, holy holy.
It talks about God being light and we seeing this light.

If you think about how we see here, when we look at one another we do not really see the person. We see reflected light. The person absorbs some light and reflects some. This is physical light, but in some way it is analogous to a spiritual we have not seen. When we see it we are so enrapt with perfect beauty (beatific vision) that we can not even think about looking away.

Mormons who think about God being a body and having sex with Mary or women, and them becoming God’s to run planets and have a lot of wives are not in the same reality, or even close to the beliefs of Christians from all ages (tradition), or the vision that the Bible gives.

We are spiritual creatures made a little lower than the angels. Angles have no bodies. We are fallen creatures, capable of good and evil. Our souls,spiritual bodies, animate our material bodies. Angels, spirits, do not take up space and do not exist in time. They do not change. In order for there to be change there has to be time, a before and after. We struggle to understand what no time is, because all we have known here is time, and space, then, now, and a coming future, and here and there.

What is eternal exists outside time, not on another physical planet in time and space.

We have a power the angels do not have. Angels have no sex, according to Jesus in the scripture quoted earlier. God made us male and female and we marry here. The man and woman, physical and spiritual creatures, join together with God and create a new being with an immortal soul, that will live forever. God creates the soul and infuses it in the new body at the time of conception. It does not exist before then. This is a great gift, a holy thing, one that we abuse, not realizing what it is. We procreate. We multiply. The devil hates us, because he is jealous, and so you see humans tempted and doing great and perverse evil with this power.

All of us are made to see God and be with Him forever. We are on a journey, going somewhere, becoming something new, that we were not before, yet always remaining the same persons, the same beings in essence as when we were first made.

I must be running out of characters, so time to go.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Not according to PaulDupre, who wrote:

And why do priests and nuns not “need marriage” now? It would appear because it would “pale in comparison” to the “intimacy and unashamed honesty” of an earthly relationship. I don’t call those feelings and attitudes “a great reverence toward marriage” nor certainly the idea of celibate priests who are in some sort of higher standing with God.

You’re making stuff up again, or still.

I’d say, Catholics are able to love better and deeper, as our love is centered on Christ. A Sacramental marriage is centered on Christ. Our families are centered on Christ.

Not some made up fable invented in the 19th century.

 

[Kdesiel]

Does anyone see a similarity between what Mormons and Muslims believe about the next life, or the lives of Brigham Young and Mohamed?

Hmmm yes …yes I do see some striking similarities. That could be a good topic for a thread.

 

[Jerusha]

And why do priests and nuns not “need marriage” now? It would appear because it would “pale in comparison” to the “intimacy and unashamed honesty” of an earthly relationship. I don’t call those feelings and attitudes “a great reverence toward marriage” nor certainly the idea of celibate priests who are in some sort of higher standing with God.

Some people choose celibacy because they are too dedicated to other demands on their time and energy. They know that spouse and children would end up on the short end.

And I contemplate Mormon parents who are too busy with their callings to be decent parents to large families.

Others very naturally are celibate because they are just not interested in sex. Somehow, they think that it is just not an important part of life. They often have many friends. That is just a variation of normal. Mormons, and many others out there, believe that is drastically abnormal.

 

[thecourt]

I was wondering how the LDS teaching of Celestial Marriage fits in with what Jesus said in Matthew 22:30,

“At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”

I’m not looking for a debate at all, I’m just curious as to how the LDS interpret this passage, which to me at least seems to contradict the teaching of Celestial Marriage.

Thanks

God bless,

So you are contradicting Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 speaks about the baptism for the dead and the three degrees of glory? I love you folks who think we make up things.

 

[TheosisM]

So you are contradicting Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 speaks about the baptism for the dead and the three degrees of glory? I love you folks who think we make up things.

LOL what does this have to do with anything JJ59 said?

 

[ricko]

So you are contradicting Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 speaks about the baptism for the dead and the three degrees of glory? I love you folks who think we make up things.

No, he is talking about marriage, not baptism. You have posted on the wrong thread maybe?

 

[Xavierlives]

We think that Matthew 22:30 refers to those who do not enter into eternal marriage covenant. When they die they are no longer married. They do not advance beyond becoming angels (i.e. ministering servants) to the Lord, and to those who receive exaltation. It applies to the majority of mankind. Those who receive exaltation (i.e. become married for eternity) are a minority.

It’s comforting to know the rest of us will be like angels.

 

[ParkerD]

It’s comforting to know the rest of us will be like angels.

Xavierlives,
Unless I’m not getting it, I have thought I have been understanding that the “beatific vision” is basically to live like angels, in the presence of God. What am I missing?

Theosis, Grandfather, and Jerusha,
Thanks to each of you for your heartfelt thoughts and comments.

Grandfather, the usual put-down remark was somewhat ill-timed within the rest of what you wrote. Mormons believe God the Father is the actual father of Jesus Christ, but not by the way you described. Mary was a virgin before and after she conceived the Son of God. How complicated does that sound, when the power of the Holy Spirit overshadowed her? Could not God do that conception? Of course He could. Is that so hard to understand?

What Mormons believe about eternity is that resurrected persons who become joint-heirs with Jesus Christ, who saves and redeems and qualifies those who are completely unqualified to live in the presence of God, can inherit what Christ inherits by His right and are then in a condition where they love unconditionally, and see the potential in unprogressed intelligences and in unprogressed spirits. With that expanded vision, they love with the kind of unconditional love that desires the growth and progress of those intelligences and spirits through the active agency of the individual choices of those intelligences and spirits, and they become involved in helping enable that growth to happen.

Just because your “beatific vision” is shrouded in mystery and “can’t know until you get there” kind of logic, doesn’t make one qualified to disparage others who have a clue about the mystery. What if you get there and find out that that mysterious place is about being creatively involved and loving and rejoicing in the progress of other spirits? What will be your reaction then?

 

[TheosisM]

Just because your “beatific vision” is shrouded in mystery and “can’t know until you get there” kind of logic, doesn’t make one qualified to disparage others who have a clue about the mystery. What if you get there and find out that that mysterious place is about being creatively involved and loving and rejoicing in the progress of other spirits? What will be your reaction then?

This is reading/fitting Mormon understandings of Heaven into the Catholic worldview. This hypothetical would not happen, and Mormonism doesn’t provide “answers” to mysteries in Catholicism because we have completely different views of what Heaven is. Eternal increase (having spirit children) simply is incompatible with Catholicism.

 

[zerinus]

It’s comforting to know the rest of us will be like angels.

An angel is just a ministering servant. Even the devil has his own angels (Matthew 25:41).

 

[PaulDupre]

Just because your “beatific vision” is shrouded in mystery and “can’t know until you get there” kind of logic…

No Parker, our beatific vision is shrouded in mystery and “can’t know until you get there” kind of scripture:

However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him”

• 1 Cor 2:9

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

• 1 Cor 13:12

Just another example of the Mormons not believing the bible. They think they know more about heaven than the apostles did.

We Catholics accept that we will not know what heaven holds in store for us until we get there, because God said so. I’m sure that whatever awaits us in heaven is far beyond anything Joseph Smith made up, or anything Parker makes up.

 

[PaulDupre]

Xavierlives,
Unless I’m not getting it, I have thought I have been understanding that the “beatific vision” is basically to live like angels, in the presence of God.

You’re not getting it. WE DON’T KNOW what the beatific vision will be like. What part of “we don’t know” is hard for you to understand? Is it because Mormons are taught that anything they can’t understand cannot be true?