LDS - Celestial Marriage

[Techno2000]

Techno 2000,
You can decide whether that particular teaching applies to you, I suppose. I consider that I should render unto God the things that are God’s, so I would say that it definitely applies to me, and I appreciate the clarity of Christ’s language and the effectiveness with which He answered the question that was supposed to have been a “trick question”.

You can’t have it both way…one teaching applies to just one tiny little group of people “Sadducees” and the next teaching applies to everyone… God’s word applies to the whole world.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno 2000,
So by your saying that “live TOGETHER” does not mean “as married husband and wife”, are you saying that you have “put asunder” that which God hath “joined together”?

I guess if you didn’t get a Divorce and remarred you would live with some semblance of “Husband and wife”, but I don’t know all the secrets of Heaven.

 

[mrparker]

They changed the Gospel Principles manual the same way they change the temple endowment - by dropping parts of it. When Mormon teachings get extremely embarrassing and difficult to defend, they merely drop them and then pretend they were never taught,

In the case of Gospel Principles, I notice they dropped a significant sentence from Chapter 47:

Is the LDS church now trying to deny that they believe that God was not always God? This would be a major doctrinal shift and a complete re-working of Joseph Smith and all succeeding prophets’ teachings on Eternal Progression.

Or are they just dumbing-down the manual, making it more milky and less meaty?

I’d be very interested to know. It is interesting to watch a major doctrinal shift happen right before my eyes.

This is impressive Paul. The lengths and depth of detail you will go to in attempt to prove your strong dislike for the LDS beliefs. I honestly wonder do you find stronger conviction in your own Catholic faith in doing so?

 

[mrparker]

Yes, I know, your holy ghost can be scared away. Catholic belief is that God never ceases in calling His people to Him.

scared away? if you were raised LDS you know better than that. You know why the Holy Ghost leaves.
And is it a belief of Catholics that the Holy Spirit still remains with those priests or individuals who molested children, which i understand Catholics believe is a grave sin?

You should understand, we believe the Holy Spirit gives certain gifts to people. Some are teachers, some are prophets, etc. I know you know the scripture. Our Bishops are the successors to the Apostles, and so, they have the additional gift of the Holy Spirit that guides them in leading Christ’s Church. Our Priests are our pastors, and so, they have the addition gift of the Holy Spirit that guides them in leading our parishes.

This seems somewhat confusing to me. As i have been told that there is no more “public” revelation. However if there are prophets and teachers receiving inspiration and guidance on behalf of leading and guiding the Catholic Church members into salvation, isn’t this revelation on behalf of the public? As well as the higher authorities being inspired to determine which manuscripts to keep giving them the actual decision as to what is or isnt important pertaining to salvation of the public? This seems to me to be like ‘public’ inspiration/revelation. Maybe you could share why this makes more sense or is more comforting to you than the LDS beliefs by which you were raised.

These scriptures describe individuals or groups who fall away. And they do, and have. We are warned to not listen to false prophets, false spirits and wolves in sheep clothing, for this very reason. There is nothing in scripture that speaks of a Mormon “great apostasy”. To the contrary, Jesus promised His Church would never fail.

I can understand your perspective on this. However, a famine, in my understanding, is an extreme scarcity of something. So when the Lord revealed there would be a famine in the land of the Word of the Lord, and that people should wander from sea to sea and should not find it, it was not simply meaning people would branch off and there would be false prophets and false spirits, but there would be an extreme scarcity. The prevalence of the Catholic church if to be the claimed church of Christ, does not fit that there was ever a famine of hearing the word of the Lord. …That’s my take on it.

You should also understand that we understand “Church” in a supernatural way. All the baptized are united to Christ. He is our Prophet, High Priest and King. For us to believe His Church failed, we would have to believe HE failed. You understand, this is not possible.

Although I agree with you in that His Church did not fail, if you refer to the word Church as the “collective body of members” in a more worldly concept, I believe the members are what failed Christ, Christ cannot fail. And if you believe that by some way when you are "baptized and united to Christ’ (not exactly sure how you mean that) in that you are a part of Christ and all the members are such, and me claiming they failed is claiming Christ failed, then i can see your point of view, regardless of my disagreeing with it.

 

[grandfather]

Techno 2000,
If that is how you want to live forever, this is fine and is your choice. I happen to love my wife, and happen to know that when Jesus said “What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder,” He knew exactly what He was saying and He was talking about marriage that God is involved with by joining the union through an eternal covenant and the power and authority that binds on earth what will be bound in heaven.

See Matthew 19:6 or Mark 10:9 for the reference in the Bible of Jesus’ words.

Parker,

The things we believe about reality do not make reality what it is, or change it. You don’t choose what the afterlife will be like by what you want it to be like. Your belief does not matter.

Assume that Catholics love their wives as well as Mormons. Assume this love is more powerful that death. It endures and survives the grave. It is eternal. We agree. If you love you get to take it with you. In heaven you will still love your wife, this same person you love here. You will not have children or sexual relations though. The love of heaven will be greater than that.

The statement “if that is how you want to live forever” presumes that you believe by wanting something else, or the way we believe things will be, that will make it so. It is similar to an earlier post that talked about why gripe if Mormons want something greater.

No one is griping and what Mormons want. What they want is not, can not be, greater than what God has in store for His elect. We can not even imagine what this is. It is beyond us and scripture affirms this. By insisting that things will be as we now know them, or any way, we reject what scripture says, that you can not know.

In order to support your beliefs that contradict scripture you must contort the plain meaning of words to make scripture mean what you want it to mean. When others say that Christians have never believed anything like your doctrine in recorded history, you say that is because there was an apostacy and true meaning was lost. But scripture says Jesus promised this would never happen. He promises that His Church would always know the truth throughout all time, as led by the Holy Ghost. There are lots of controversies and heresies recorded in Church history. It is not a pretty picture, but the record was never hidden. The things the Church alwaysd believed from day one is recorded in many ways, including creeds. There is no historical record of the Church ever believing what Mormons believe, and turning or apostacizing from it, no controversy or arguement, even though there are many arguments recorded. What Mormons believe is novel and radically new and in order to make it harmonize with scripture the plain meaning of words must be contorted. Historic fact has to be contorted, archeology, anthropology. etc. There is no evidence anywhere to be found in history to support Mormon doctrines, and the history they believe about this hemisphere. You are trying to defend a fantasy, one that history, not theology disproves, looking backwards, and scripture disproves looking forward.

No matter how badly you want a thing to be true, your desire doesn’t change what is. You can have all of your loved ones to love for all eternity and the love you can have is greater in some way we can’t yet know, than what we know here. You can’t have sex and multiply for all eternity. Children sit on Santas lap at the mall and think he will come with flying reindeer. If that is what they want to be true, it is still a fantasy.

 

[RebeccaJ]

scared away? if you were raised LDS you know better than that. You know why the Holy Ghost leaves.
And is it a belief of Catholics that the Holy Spirit still remains with those priests or individuals who molested children, which i understand Catholics believe is a grave sin?

Yes, scared away. Have a “bad” thought? poof, your HG is allll gone. I can dig up some teachings for you if you like.

The Holy Spirit never leaves. God never ceases calling people to Him. Depends on whether or not you are open to hear. Even a person deep in sin, can be open to hear. God searches the hearts of all people.

This seems somewhat confusing to me. As i have been told that there is no more “public” revelation. However if there are prophets and teachers receiving inspiration and guidance on behalf of leading and guiding the Catholic Church members into salvation, isn’t this revelation on behalf of the public? As well as the higher authorities being inspired to determine which manuscripts to keep giving them the actual decision as to what is or isnt important pertaining to salvation of the public?

From the catechism:

66 “The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.

67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and a

This is the sort of public revelation that has ended. Private revelation is given to all. This is the guidance and gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Maybe you could share why this makes more sense or is more comforting to you than the LDS beliefs by which you were raised.

What comforts me about Christ’s Church is that it is based on Him. His teachings. No one keeps looking for missing bits to be revealed. Of course, what He taught can be learned and understood, deeper and deeper, for a lifetime.

Although I agree with you in that His Church did not fail, if you refer to the word Church as the “collective body of members” in a more worldly concept, I believe the members are what failed Christ,

Quite the contrary, the Faithful have existed since they learned from Jesus and the Apostles.

continued…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Christ cannot fail. And if you believe that by some way when you are "baptized and united to Christ’ (not exactly sure how you mean that) in that you are a part of Christ and all the members are such, and me claiming they failed is claiming Christ failed, then i can see your point of view, regardless of my disagreeing with it.

I don’t know an equivalent in Mormonism to compare to. So, I’ll give you a section from the catechism on Baptism.

**“A new creature” **
**1265 **Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.
**1266 **The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
  **Incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ **
  **1267 **Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore . . . we are members one of another.” Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”
  **1268 **The baptized have become “living stones” to be “built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood.” By Baptism they share in the priesthood of Christ, in his prophetic and royal mission. They are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people, that [they] may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called [them] out of darkness into his marvelous light.” Baptism gives a share in the common priesthood of all believers.
  **1269 **Having become a member of the Church, the person baptized belongs no longer to himself, but to him who died and rose for us. From now on, he is called to be subject to others, to serve them in the communion of the Church, and to “obey and submit” to the Church’s leaders, holding them in respect and affection. Just as Baptism is the source of responsibilities and duties, the baptized person also enjoys rights within the Church: to receive the sacraments, to be nourished with the Word of God and to be sustained by the other spiritual helps of the Church.
  **1270 **“Reborn as sons of God, [the baptized] must profess before men the faith they have received from God through the Church” and participate in the apostolic and missionary activity of the People of God.
  **The sacramental bond of the unity of Christians **
  **1271 **Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.”
  **An indelible spiritual mark . . . **
  **1272 **Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
  **1273 **Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship. The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.
  **1274 **The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) “for the day of redemption.” “Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life.” The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life “marked with the sign of faith,” with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

 

[PaulDupre]

scared away? if you were raised LDS you know better than that. You know why the Holy Ghost leaves.
And is it a belief of Catholics that the Holy Spirit still remains with those priests or individuals who molested children, which i understand Catholics believe is a grave sin?

No, we believe that Holy Orders still remains with a sinful priest. Once a priest, always a priest. Because it is the priesthood of Christ that works through the one ordained, and Christ is perfectly righteous, the priesthood power remains.

Think about it - if priesthood authority could be lost through unrighteousness, then you could never be sure if any man in your church had the authority to perform any given ordinance at any given time. If a man was hiding serious sin and ordained an elder, that ordinance would be invalid and that elder would have no priesthood. If that elder went on a mission, every baptism he performed would be invalid. If some of those the missionary baptized went on to be church leaders in that mission area, then all of the ordinations and all of the ordinances they performed would be invalid. You could quickly have a mission or a stake with no validly ordained priesthood and no valid ordinances.

On a smaller scale, if priesthood authority could be lost through unrighteousness, how do you know that all of the 16 year-old boys who bless the sacrament on Sunday are morally pure? There is a very good chance that many of the “sacraments” you consume are nothing but unblessed bread and water.

Joseph Smith’s teaching that the least amount of unrighteousness negates a man’s priesthood (D&C 121:37) leaves you with a church where no one knows if their ordinances are valid or not.

I’m glad for the real gospel, where it is the righteousness of Jesus that assures us of the blessings of the priesthood, not the righteousness of any mere man.

 

[TheosisM]

No, we believe that Holy Orders still remains with a sinful priest. Once a priest, always a priest. Because it is the priesthood of Christ that works through the one ordained, and Christ is perfectly righteous, the priesthood power remains.

Think about it - if priesthood authority could be lost through unrighteousness, then you could never be sure if any man in your church had the authority to perform any given ordinance at any given time. If a man was hiding serious sin and ordained an elder, that ordinance would be invalid and that elder would have no priesthood. If that elder went on a mission, every baptism he performed would be invalid. If some of those the missionary baptized went on to be church leaders in that mission area, then all of the ordinations and all of the ordinances they performed would be invalid. You could quickly have a mission or a stake with no validly ordained priesthood and no valid ordinances.

On a smaller scale, if priesthood authority could be lost through unrighteousness, how do you know that all of the 16 year-old boys who bless the sacrament on Sunday are morally pure? There is a very good chance that many of the “sacraments” you consume are nothing but unblessed bread and water.

Joseph Smith’s teaching that the least amount of unrighteousness negates a man’s priesthood (D&C 121:37) leaves you with a church where no one knows if their ordinances are valid or not.

I’m glad for the real gospel, where it is the righteousness of Jesus that assures us of the blessings of the priesthood, not the righteousness of any mere man.

Paul, thank you for this post!

 

[PaulDupre]

Paul, thank you for this post!

You’re welcome. BTW, did you notice the chaism?

 

[TheosisM]

You’re welcome. BTW, did you notice the chaism?

LOL it must’ve been written in ancient Hebrew!

 

[PaulDupre]

This is impressive Paul. The lengths and depth of detail you will go to in attempt to prove your strong dislike for the LDS beliefs. I honestly wonder do you find stronger conviction in your own Catholic faith in doing so?

My strong dislike for LDS beliefs is already well known - no need to prove that. But there is always a need to combat heresy wherever it rears its ugly head. Perhaps someone reading my posts will be persuaded not to continue the missionary lessons, or to finally write that exit letter.

I firmly believe that one of the reasons God let me go through the dark bondage of being Mormon was so that I could help some to avoid it, and others to escape it.

 

[mrparker]

My strong dislike for LDS beliefs is already well known - no need to prove that. But there is always a need to combat heresy wherever it rears its ugly head. Perhaps someone reading my posts will be persuaded not to continue the missionary lessons, or to finally write that exit letter.

Were you excommunicated?

I firmly believe that one of the reasons God let me go through the dark bondage of being Mormon was so that I could help some to avoid it, and others to escape it.

Dark bondage of being Mormon? What exactly about it was dark and bonding?

 

[mrparker]

No, we believe that Holy Orders still remains with a sinful priest. Once a priest, always a priest. Because it is the priesthood of Christ that works through the one ordained, and Christ is perfectly righteous, the priesthood power remains.

Think about it - if priesthood authority could be lost through unrighteousness, then you could never be sure if any man in your church had the authority to perform any given ordinance at any given time. If a man was hiding serious sin and ordained an elder, that ordinance would be invalid and that elder would have no priesthood. If that elder went on a mission, every baptism he performed would be invalid. If some of those the missionary baptized went on to be church leaders in that mission area, then all of the ordinations and all of the ordinances they performed would be invalid. You could quickly have a mission or a stake with no validly ordained priesthood and no valid ordinances.

On a smaller scale, if priesthood authority could be lost through unrighteousness, how do you know that all of the 16 year-old boys who bless the sacrament on Sunday are morally pure? There is a very good chance that many of the “sacraments” you consume are nothing but unblessed bread and water.

Joseph Smith’s teaching that the least amount of unrighteousness negates a man’s priesthood (D&C 121:37) leaves you with a church where no one knows if their ordinances are valid or not.

I’m glad for the real gospel, where it is the righteousness of Jesus that assures us of the blessings of the priesthood, not the righteousness of any mere man.

I appreciate your effort at the explanation, and I’m sorry i brought in the “priest” to the equation causing you to naturally think i was talking about preisthood. However, we were talking about the Holy Spirit.

 

[heathernoel]

Were you excommunicated?

So if someone determines that Mormonism is a lie, they are excommunicated? Are statistics kept of the number of people “excommunicated” for realizing that Mormonism is a lie? (that wasn’t a sarcastic question, actually…I am curious as to the number of people excommunicated (voluntarily or not) for questioning Mormonism).

TIA!

 

[Marie5890]

First off let me say I have not read this thread so I dont know what has or has not been said; just wanted to add the thoughts that came to my mind after the rose colored glasses came off.

That had to do with the whole idea of being “sealed” in order to be family forever.

To me that goes against the idea of “free agency” in my mind.

If one (or in this case a couple) becomes “exalted” in the Celestial kingdom but some of their children do not and thus are not in the Celestial kingdom (or one of the lower levels of it) do their kids stop being their kids?

Are their kids prohibited from saying “those are my parents, my mother, my father”…Does God make the parents stop loving their children? Or make the children stop loving their parents?

I remember one of the opinions floated around that people who made it to the Celestial kingdom would be able to visit those in the Terestial kingdom (or Telestial) but those of the lower kingdoms would not be able to visit those in the Celestial…

So is all this separation of family just a physical separation? Or does God take away the love in their hearts that possessed here on Earth?

What makes familes is love. Loving one another.

Not “being sealed”

It was then that I thought the whole “sealed as a forever family” dogma was silly.

Those of my family are my family because I love them, not because of the word (label) that describes how we are related to each other here.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So if someone determines that Mormonism is a lie, they are excommunicated? Are statistics kept of the number of people “excommunicated” for realizing that Mormonism is a lie? (that wasn’t a sarcastic question, actually…I am curious as to the number of people excommunicated (voluntarily or not) for questioning Mormonism).

TIA!

Mormons are taught, and they believe, that all who leave Mormonism do because of a)sin or b)offended. Maybe both.

PaulDupre didn’t really have issues with doctrine. Nope. He was an adultering axe murderer who got offended when his mormon bishop told him to repent. (Yes, I am joking.)

 

[PaulDupre]

Were you excommunicated?

This was 1986, remember, prior to the policy changes on name removal occassioned by the lawsuits against the church. After my wife and I wrote a letter to the bishop telling him that we wanted our names removed from the records of the church (because we now believed Mormonism, Joseph Smith and the BoM to be false), which I delivered to him in person, we never went back to the ward. Prior to writing the letter we were fully active temple-worthy full-tithe-paying garment-wearing members and I was serving as 2nd counselor in the bishopric and my wife was RS secretary. So of course it came as a big surprise to the bishop. They held a church court on me in absentia (but not on my wife, strangely enough) for apostasy and excommunicated both of us for apostasy. I understand that these days, they just remove your name with no other action, but that was not the case back then.

Dark bondage of being Mormon? What exactly about it was dark and bonding?

Too much to go into now, but I find it interesting that nearly every ex-Mormon describes his time in Mormonism as “bondage” or “slavery” (both apply aptly).

 

[Marie5890]

This was 1986, remember, prior to the policy changes on name removal occassioned by the lawsuits against the church. After my wife and I wrote a letter to the bishop telling him that we wanted our names removed from the records of the church (because we now believed Mormonism, Joseph Smith and the BoM to be false), we never went back to the ward. Prior to writing the letter we were fully active temple-worthy full-tithe-paying garment-wearing members and I was serving as 2nd counselor in the bishopric and my wife was RS secretary. So of course it came as a big surprise to the bishop. They held a church court on me in absentia (but not on my wife, strangely enough) for apostasy and excommunicated both of us for apostasy. I understand that these days, they just remove your name with no other action, but that was not the case back then.

Too much to go into now, but I find it interesting that nearly every ex-Mormon describes his time in Mormonism as “bondage” or “slavery” (both apply aptly).

Paul…sorry you and your wife had to go thru all of that.

When I resigned my membership in '91 the policy had then been changed so I had no problems.

Didn’t take too long either to get my letter from Greg Dodge either.

I feel bad for that guy. I understand that Membership Records dept has had to increase in staff signfically due to all the resignation requests by former members.

 

[Kdesiel]

Mormons are taught, and they believe, that all who leave Mormonism do because of a)sin or b)offended. Maybe both.

PaulDupre didn’t really have issues with doctrine. Nope. He was an adultering axe murderer who got offended when his mormon bishop told him to repent. (Yes, I am joking.)

HA HA HA…funny but sadly in most cases true. Whe I first began to question my LDS faith I was told my doubt came from unresolved transgressions, that I should seek advice from the Bishop and enter into the repentance process. This was suggested to me by a close freind and fellow member of the church when I had mentioned my doubts.
Later people just held their speculation that I was offended by someone elses actions, or that I was an adulturer, one even said it was becuase I drank coffee…
Just got a kick out of your post becuause of how true it is in most cases.