LDS Christmas card, Christian? you decide!

[mormon_fool]

Here is what one LDS scholar, Stephen Robinson, Ph.D Duke , has said about the Trinity.

It has been said that since Latter-day Saints do not accept the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, it follows that they cannot be considered Christians. Here again the heart of the argument lies in the definition of its terms. Specifically the logical problem with this argument is that non-LDS Christians usually define the term trinity ambiguously. They habitually, and most often unconsciously, equate the biblical teaching on the nature of the Godhead with the later philosophical statement formulated at the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451-the Nicene Creed. But these two ways of perceiving God are simply not equivalent.

What Is the Trinity?

If by “the doctrine of the Trinity” one means the New Testament teaching that there is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost, all three of whom are fully divine, then Latter-day Saints believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. It is as simple as that. The Latter-day Saints’ first article of faith, written by Joseph Smith in 1842., states, *“We *believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” Baptisms in the Church are performed “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (see D&C 20:73). The prayer of blessing on the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper is addressed to God the Eternal Father in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, to the end that those who partake may have his Spirit to be with them (see D&C 20:77-79). Latter-day Saints thoroughly agree with the biblical doctrine of the threefold nature of the Godhead and of the divinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

However, if by “the doctrine of the Trinity” one means the doctrine formulated by the councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon and elaborated upon by subsequent theologians and councils-that God is three coequal persons in one substance or essence-then Latter-day Saints do not believe it. They do not believe it, because it is not biblical. Words central to the orthodox understanding of the Trinity-words like *coequal, consubstantial, *and *circumincession, *or the word trinity itself, for that matter-are not found in scripture. The term *trinity *(Latin *trinitas) *was first used by Tertullian around the beginning of the third century A.D. The Nicene and Chalcedonian Fathers tried to find scriptural terms for their new formulae but were unable to do so.

The scriptures themselves do not offer any explanation of how the threeness and the oneness of God are related. The biblical writers were singularly uninterested in that problem or in questions dealing with God’s essence, his substance, or the philosophical definition of his nature. These later concerns are elaborations upon the biblical doctrine of God, elaborations formulated to answer in philosophically respectable terms the questions and objections of Hellenistic thinking concerning the primitive Christian doctrine. Christian intellectuals of the fourth and fifth centuries felt that the biblical language was too unsophisticated and inadequate for this purpose, and so they attempted to supplement and improve it with their own best efforts.

– Are Mormons Christians? p. 120

 

[Brad_Haas]

That book missed so many points so much…

Anyway, he’s wrong about the first use of “Trinity.” It was circa 181 AD, by Theophilus of Antioch, in his letter to Autolycus.

 

[Bsix]

I am a Latter Day Saint, I’d like to make a few friendly comments.

Catholicism is often the target of Evangelical countercultism with all of its hyperbolic exaggerations and polemic sensationalism. As such, I find it amusing that some of you are engaged in the same sort of behavior. I think you should recall all the distortions about “unchristian” behaviors cast at your faith by others before you start casting similar sorts of distortions.

I wish you could have come to my local Mormon church with me this week.

If you had attended you’d find a large sign on building proclaiming the focus and name of our faith: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

As you walked around the building, you’d find dozens of paintings on the walls depicting Jesus Christ, his life, ministry, his suffering, his resurrection, and his second coming.

The service itself would begin with prayer offered in the name of Jesus Christ.

We would sing a sacrament hymn about Jesus Christ.

We would then bless, pass and partake of the sacrament (communion) in rememberence of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrafice.
You would join us thoughout the service in singing traditional Christmas hymns

You’d note that all of the talks this week were about Jesus Christ, and various inspiring aspects of Christmas.

You’d enjoy the chior sining a Christmas hymn about Jesus Christ.

We would end the service being led in prayer in the name of Jesus Christ.

I admit that to you, I am a heretic. I have rejected what I consider to be false interpretations of the Bible concerning the nature of God.

However, I am a deeply committed Christian. I am born again. I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I love Jesus Christ. I have devoted my life to him. There is no other way for me to be saved except Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God…but not in the the trinitarian manner. He is divine. He is eternal. He is the Savior of the world.

May you be blessed this holy season. Merry Christmas.

Regards,

Six

 

[Bsix]

My “Mormon” Christmas card to you.

In the spirit of the season, here is a Christmas card from the official website of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

As you can see, Jesus is the reason for the season.

Official Mormon eChristmas Card

Merry Christmas,

Six

 

[catholic-rcia]

Here is what one LDS scholar, Stephen Robinson, Ph.D Duke , has said about the Trinity.

**I have to point out a few errors here, I am not a scholar. Just a Christian. **

It has been said that since Latter-day Saints do not accept the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, it follows that they cannot be considered Christians.

Here again the heart of the argument lies in the definition of its terms. Specifically the logical problem with this argument is that non-LDS Christians usually define the term trinity ambiguously? They habitually?, and most often unconsciously?, equate the biblical teaching on the nature of the Godhead with the later philosophical statement formulated at the Council of Chalcedon in A.D. 451-the Nicene Creed.

**It is well known that this was to define what Christians have always known prior to 451 A.D. It was to put an end to Heresy that had, and was popping up. It’s that Simple. An honest study shows this clearly. So who is Stephen Robinson speaking to here? Maybe to those who may not know the Apostles Creed? What is his motive other than trying to confirm to others that do not know that God is God? Just look at the word Trinity. It is a beautiful word. **
But these two ways of perceiving God are simply not equivalent.

What Is the Trinity?

If by “the doctrine of the Trinity” one means the New Testament teaching that there is a Father, a Son, and a Holy Ghost, all three of whom are fully divine, (One in being) then Latter-day Saints believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. (This is not an honest statement- only the words are the same, that it) It is as simple as that.

**Is it? Can you not see the deception here? God does not deceive in this manner. **

The Latter-day Saints’ first article of faith, written by Joseph Smith in 1842., states, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost." Baptisms in the Church are performed “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (see D&C 20:73). The prayer of blessing on the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper is addressed to God the Eternal Father in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, to the end that those who partake may have his Spirit to be with them (see D&C 20:77-79). Latter-day Saints thoroughly agree with the biblical doctrine of the threefold nature of the Godhead and of the divinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. **

**I am a Catholic who understands my faith, this is not right. Again, very deceiving. Especially to those who do not fully understand the Mormon religion or Christianity for that matter. You need to be honest with yourself in what is written here and how it is written. Find me a Catholic writing by any of the saints that would deceive others in this way. In all humility you won’t find it. **

Continued-

 

[catholic-rcia]

However, if by “the doctrine of the Trinity” one means the doctrine formulated by the councils of Nicaea and Chalcedon and elaborated upon by subsequent theologians and councils-that God is three coequal persons in one substance or essence-then Latter-day Saints do not believe it.
Trinity is very, very Biblical, it is the core of the Christian faith, you can not counterfeit Jesus into something that He is not, make words look the same through deception like this writing and get away with it in the end. This kind of deception is what us Christians go to confession for. I don’t read this with anger, more in the sense of pain for Christ, but he took care of this stuff for all of us so I can find peace, but I really feel for the author.

They do not believe it, because it is not biblical.

1 Cor all of twelve come to mind, John 1 comes to mind, Colossians comes to mind, revelations comes to mind (I am the Alpha and the Omega) Let us make man in our image…… Here dianedew.com/godhead.htm

Words central to the orthodox understanding of the Trinity-words like *coequal, consubstantial, *and *circumincession, *or the word trinity itself, for that matter-are not found in scripture. The term *trinity *(Latin *trinitas) *was first used by Tertullian around the beginning of the third century A.D. The Nicene and Chalcedonian Fathers tried to find scriptural terms for their new formulae but were unable to do so.?

Trinity is all over the Old Testament and the New. I once stood on a beach looking for a particular shell. A small shell! I could not find them. Then about 15 minutes later I found one, then like a miracle I began to see them all over. This is what happens to born again Christians to all Christian! The realize that it was God who died for them, that he lessoned Himself into the form of man. That we can hear God through His eternal son, see him in our lives, touch him and be touched by him. An exalted man? No way,……our Creator!

The scriptures themselves do not offer any explanation of how the threeness and the oneness of God are related. The biblical writers were singularly uninterested in that problem or in questions dealing with God’s essence, his substance, or the philosophical definition of his nature.

scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html#jesus-I

These later concerns are elaborations? upon the biblical doctrine of God, elaborations formulated to answer in philosophically respectable terms the questions and objections of Hellenistic thinking concerning the primitive Christian doctrine. Christian intellectuals of the fourth and fifth centuries felt that the biblical language was too unsophisticated and inadequate for this purpose, and so they attempted to supplement and improve it with their own best efforts.

**At times I am amazed that I even have to try and defend Trinity / God, It is much better to be around those who come to be a Christian and place God above all things knowing that as a Creature all things are given by Him who created us. The gift of a Creator giving us life is to wonderful to miss. Not knowing is one thing, but knowing in your heart and then denying it is another. We will all break the commandments in one way or another, this is why God sent His Eternal Son. So that we, the fallen could follow the Ten Commandments home.

---

 

[catholic-rcia]

Go back and read what the LDS scholar, Stephen Robinson, Ph.D Duke , has said about the Trinity.

Here is what he has said can not be found anywhere in the Bible. If you would like we could go over the tons of Scripture regarding the nature of God that can’t be found in the Scriptures according to Stephen Robinson.

1 John
Chapter 51 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten by God, and everyone who loves the father loves (also) the one begotten by him. 2 In this way we know that we love the children of God when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For the love of God is this, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome, 4 for whoever is begotten by God conquers the world. And the victory that conquers the world is our faith. 5 Who (indeed) is the victor over the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? 6 This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the Spirit is truth. 7 So there are three that testify, 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, ***and the three are of one accord. ***9 If we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is surely greater. Now the testimony of God is this, that he has testified on behalf of his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar **by not believing the testimony God has given about his Son. **11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life. Christian means Christ in Us / this is Trinity/ It gives us life, it is the Gift to creation.

 

[catholic-rcia]

The Bible declares that Jesus is fully God, not a subordinate deity. He eternally exists as God and is our creator.

John 1:1-4, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. … And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever.

Colossians 1:16-17
For by him [Christ] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

** God Bless**

 

[Brad_Haas]

Good heavens, Catholic-RCIA. I hope nobody posts the Early Church Father quotes Robinson included in that book - you would have to write another several dozens posts in reply!

 

[Bsix]

Dear catholic-rcia:

I understand that being a classical trinitarian, you believe that the Trinity is the core of Christian doctrine. You believe that the Trinity is “all over” the Bible.

With all due respect, the Trinity doctrine is not directly or explicitly taught in the Bible. In fact, the word itself does not appear in the Bible…nor any word that describes the concept of the word trinity. Why? Because the concept is not biblical.

The doctrine of the trinity is an evolved interpetation. It took hundreds of years to ferment and gain momentum before it finally became official doctrine.

The doctrine of the Trinity is merely a methodology for reconcilling passages of the Bible into a integrated understanding of God. As such, it is the invention of theologians.

I understand you sincerity and your passion. However, I think that you may be so comfortable with your biblical paradigm that you cannot bring yourself to see that the doctrine of the trinity is not actually taught in the Bible.

I think you may be looking at the Bible (the beach) and seeing what you want to see (the shells).

Regards,

Six

 

[majick275]

interestingly enough though JS originally taught the “orthodox” view of the trinity. You can still find it in the BoM in many passages. That makes it all the more strange that LDS no longer teach it as true doctrine and yet keep those same scriptures that show it.

 

[catholic-rcia]

majick275:

interestingly enough though JS originally taught the “orthodox” view of the trinity. You can still find it in the BoM in many passages. That makes it all the more strange that LDS no longer teach it as true doctrine and yet keep those same scriptures that show it.

Yes
The Book of Mormon itself is very Trinitarian, the Belief in One God. But it is used to set the wrong table.

So when a missionary asks one to pray on the book of Mormon the deception begins to take root.

Satan is Jealous of the Eternal Son of God, His very creator (Col 1:16-28) , this is where all sin has its beginning, satan does not accept the Grace that he was given (THE GIFT) as a created angel, he rejects it out of Gods love for the Eternal son, he wants full control over Grace as if it were his own…(pride see below)

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#391

By receiving the revelation that Christians receive about God, one can turn away from the deceptions that Satan uses to rule the earth, this deception begins by distorting who Christ is and His great mission to bring us back to Gods perfect Grace. We are here to learn of our God, we come to Him by His word given to us, (John 1)

usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john1.htm

to those who turn to His perfect word (Grace ) to us, Jesus Christ. We are sinners in transformation relying only on God through His Son to return Home. It is not about what we do or how often we do it, rather it is in grasping the hand of God to be lifted upon His back to be carried home to the Father…….The Prodigal son /Upon His Back / the lost lamb / we are the cross carried / The Lamb upon His back. God our Creator saves us from ourselves. catholic-rcia.com/pages/Cross_scripture.html

Saint Augustine put it like this:
“Pride about our good deeds is pointless. God has his own ideas regarding what is good and he does not always agree with us. If there is anything good about you believe better things of others. This will keep you humble. It will not hurt you at all to consider yourself less righteous than others, but it will be disastrous for you to consider yourself better than even one person.”

Thomas Kempis wrote: “What must he do? He must give up everything, especially himself, retaining no trace of selfishness. And when he has done everything required of him he must consider it as nothing. He must not agree with others when they applaud him, but rather admit that he is actually an ordinary servant. As the gospel says, ‘When you have done everything you were told to do, say “We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty”’ (Luke 17:10). After admitting this he may be honestly poor in spirit, and may say with the psalmist, ‘Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted’ (Ps. 25:16). And yet, no one will be richer, no one more powerful, no one more free, because he is able to leave himself behind.”

I wish only to leave my own self behind, all those earthy pursuits that mean absolutely nothing in the end . I just want to get back to the garden and let God be my God. As a Catholic I know the cost of leaving the garden, we have a crucifix in our Church to remind us of the cost, but mostly to remind us of such love as our God,

“He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our inequities, the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed.
Isaiah 53:5

We are taught where the prophesies are and whom fulfilled them, the greatest of all restorations. Jesus to us.

God Bless this Chritmas season and what has been given

 

[catsrus]

originally posted by Bsix
I have rejected what I consider to be false interpretations of the Bible concerning the nature of God.

And there is the crux.

 

[amgid]

puzzleannie:

thank you for the link, I lived and worked with Mormons for many years in my former profession and was required to work closely with them on research projects and the nature of the project required that I be instructed by their leadership on their faith.

I too am curious to know what your “former profession” was, why it required you to “work closely with them on research projects,” and what kind of “project” it was that required you to be “instructed by their leadership on their faith,” and who were those “leadership” who gave you such perverse “instruction”.

I am well acquainted with their beliefs, . . .

Judging by what you have written, I would say that you are not in the least “acquainted with their beliefs”—or else you are deliberately misrepresenting them with malicious intent.

. . . and no, Mormons do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as God, . . .

Amazing! Then hear what Jesus Christ has revealed about His own divinity in modern LDS scripture (this list is not exhaustive, it is a representative sample):

Book of Mormon, Title Page:

. . . And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations . . .

2 Nephi 11:

7 For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we are not, for there could have been no creation. But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.

2 Nephi 26:

12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;

Mosiah 3:

5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, . . .

Mosiah 15:

1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.

3 Nephi 11:

13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:

14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

Ether 3:

18 And he {Jesus} ministered unto him even as he ministered unto the Nephites; and all this, that this man might know that he was God, because of the many great works which the Lord had showed unto him.

D&C 1:

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.​

(Continued in the next post…)

amgid

 

[amgid]

(Continued from the previous post…)

. . . as the Son of God, . . .

I did a computerized search for the occurrence of the expression “Son of God,” in the scriptures, and came up with the following results. It occurs in various books of scripture, including modern LDS scripture, with the following frequencies:

Old Testanent: Once (Daniel 3:25)
New Testament: 46 times
Book of Mormon: 50 times
Doctrine and Covenants: 20 times
Pearl of Great Price: Twice​

It would be far too lengthy to quote them all here. The following quotes are just a representative sample:

1 Nephi 11:

24 And after he had said these words, he said unto me: Look! And I looked, and I beheld the Son of God going forth among the children of men; and I saw many fall down at his feet and worship him.

2 Nephi 25:

19 For according to the words of the prophets, the Messiah cometh in six hundred years from the time that my father left Jerusalem; and according to the words of the prophets, and also the word of the angel of God, his name shall be Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Mosiah 3:

8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

Alma 7:

13 Now the Spirit knoweth all things; nevertheless the Son of God suffereth according to the flesh that he might take upon him the sins of his people, that he might blot out their transgressions according to the power of his deliverance; and now behold, this is the testimony which is in me.

Alma 9:

26 And not many days hence the Son of God shall come in his glory; and his glory shall be the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace, equity, and truth, full of patience, mercy, and long-suffering, quick to hear the cries of his people and to answer their prayers.

Alma 34:

14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

Helaman 3:

28 Yea, thus we see that the gate of heaven is open unto all, even to those who will believe on the name of Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God.

3 Nephi 9:

15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

D&C 6:

21 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I am the same that came unto mine own, and mine own received me not. I am the light which shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not.

D&C 11:

28 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I am the life and the light of the world.

D&C 35:

2 I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who was crucified for the sins of the world, even as many as will believe on my name, that they may become the sons of God, even one in me as I am one in the Father, as the Father is one in me, that we may be one.​

. . . second person of the Blessed Trinity. the Word, . . .

As the “Son of God,” Jesus is also the second member of the Trinity. That is what “Son of God” means.

(Continued in the next post…)

amgid

 

[amgid]

(Continued from the previous post…)

. . . and the only name by which we may be saved. . . .

Then hear what the Lord has revealed in the Book of Mormon, and in other LDS scripture, about where salvation comes from (again, this list is by no means complete):

Omni 1:

26 And now, my beloved brethren, I would that ye should come unto Christ, who is the Holy One of Israel, and partake of his salvation, and the power of his redemption. Yea, come unto him, and offer your whole souls as an offering unto him, and continue in fasting and praying, and endure to the end; and as the Lord liveth ye will be saved.

Mosiah 3:

17 And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.

Mosiah 5:

8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

Ether 3:

14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

Moses 6:

52 And he also said unto him: If thou wilt turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, and believe, and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ, the only name which shall be given under heaven, whereby salvation shall come unto the children of men, ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, asking all things in his name, and whatsoever ye shall ask, it shall be given you.​

amgid

 

[catholic-rcia]

“He will appear as if to be the light of Christ in order to deceive many , but is not the Christ at all”

Paul’s Letter to the Colossians:
2:4 I say this so that no one will deceive you through arguments that sound reasonable. 2:5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your morale and the firmness of your faith in Christ.

The following is a strong read"
bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1644

 

[flameburns623]

I want to raise the point that while ‘puzzleannie’ may have mistated her case, the fact is that there are real and substantive differences between the traditional understanding of the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, and so forth and the core teachings of the LDS Church. Mormonism couches their theology in very traditional language, their beliefs resemble traditional teachings in some notable but superficial ways, but the fact is that even a casual reader should quickly grasp that there are real differences between the authentic Christian faith of history and the faith of Mormonism.

The differences are so great that I do not think it is entirely unfair to say that Mormons believe in ‘a different God, a different Jesus, and a different gospel’. In that sense, the LDS Church can be said to be not at all a Christian faith, and Mormons can be excluded from the definition of whom is a Christian. Keep in mind that I am using the word ‘Christian’ here in a restricted theological sense. If one is speaking in much broader, general terms, of course one would say that Mormonism deserves to be called a ‘Christian’ denomination. Although some both within the Mormon faith and outside it have suggested it is on it’s way to becoming a faith truly apart from Christianity, in the way that Buddhism is distinguished from Hinduism, Christianity from Judaism.
That aside–it is unfair, as the OP of this thread suggested, to deny that Mormons are not very devoted to their own peculiar version of Jesus Christ. That was the point of my initial criticisms of the Original Post which initiated this thread.

 

[Mom_of_5]

I believe that LDS are very devoted to their own versions of Jesus, God, Holy Ghost, Joseph Smith and other prophets of the LDS church. This card was not a “December” card as one poster suggested, it had “merry christmas” in the message. This card was in the card company’s web site in the Christmas card section.

The problem I have is that if a denomination wishes to be considered,as LDS does, to be part of the traditional christian community, then be christian in the truest sense, not pretend to be, in order to get converts. The sincereity of the belief of LDS is not in question, the admission of their belief, or honesty in that belief is in question. The LDS gentleman that I was in contact with several years ago on another forum told me that the LDS believe that a “white lie” to get someone to do a good thing, (convert) is not bad since it leads to the conversion, (a good thing). I had asked him why LDS do not advertise the fact that the King James bible they send out on request, does not tell the recipient that the BOM is included in that blible. I suggested to him that it was wrong to omit that information as it is wrong to give lessons, baptize, then start to feed the rest of the real LDS beliefs to the convert. My husband was a home teacher, etc., etc., for many years. He did temple work, baptizing, etc., He tells me that LDS are not supposed to give out much information, try to fit into the mainstream of christianity, however the beliefs are not at all the same christianity as Catholic, Luthern, etc. they are christian to the extent that they believe in Jesus. The LDS Jesus actually failed, leaving it to Joseph Smith to re-organize the church.

I do not suggest that all LDS believe it is o.k. to omit facts, however, the fact that a little thing as a Chrismas card tries to tell the Joseph Smith story rather than the story of Jesus birth does seem to suggest that Joseph Smith and Jesus are on the same plane in LDS belief system. The bishop and two other ward officers sent this card. I can only believe that they knew what they signed their names to and condoned the message. For any LDS to deny this is to say these are not very informed members of the LDS faith.

I hope that we will all enjoy a blessed Christmas with family and friends. It seems that no matter what religion people proclaim to believe in, Christmas is a time when all want to be a part of this beautiful celebration. Welcome one and all.

Love and peace

Mom of 5

 

[majick275]

LDS are very sincere in their beliefs, so are JWs, scientologists, branch davidians, wahabbists and moonies. That is meaningless. They have changed their doctrines, scriptures, teachings and practices substantially over the years yet want us to believe that God speaks directly to their “prophet” and tells him how to lead their church. This has been used to justify changing the meaning of the bible, practice all manner of lustful adultery, violate teh law, con the foolosh out of their money, property and even their virtue. This isn’t in doubt. It’s all very easily verified from LDS sources even. So why do people still falll for this? Same reasons scientology and it’s ilk are growing. Follish people want to believe Satans lie that they can be Gods someday and are willing to pay for it.

I sincerely hope that everyone here can see Mormonism for what it really is and not let the “commercials” fool you. Keep your faith (and your money), follow the REAL God bny worshipping him in a true Christina church this Christmas.