LDS Church says its role in Mountain Meadows Massacre ‘terrible and inexcusable’

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ahimsa
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Barbara_Rae said:
oooohhhh! That was a low blow. I’ve been reading the threads on that site. Most of the comments seem to me to relate to differences of doctrinal belief and interpretation of history. Valid points of debate and discussion. I don’t see how that can be compared with killing innocent men, women and children. It seems to me that all religions have these embarrasing episodes in their past. But honest discussion and debate doesn’t lead to murder. Fanatacism and enflaming rhetoric does. I haven’t seen anything that could be described as such in any of the threads I’ve read , even when some of the discussion gets a little heated. ( I do wince sometimes at some of Zerenius’ comments.) And I must say that I do not like it when I see the word, ‘cult’ thrown around. That’s just name-calling and not very rescpectful. As a practicing Catholic, I’ve had that accusation thrown at me a number of times and I certainly didn’t like it. (Do unto others as…) But, I never felt impelled to go out and commit murder.
Click to expand...
I think Barbara that you and I are in much agreement. Calm debate and dialogue are useful for understanding. I am defending the lds faith from the pot boilers who at times post their comments about mormons. I have nothing against Mormons. I have teenagers that are mormons. And they seem to be doing very well with their faith. I go to Catholic Mass because I was born catholic but joined the mormons when I was a teenager. And now, I again attend Mass.

I can also go to the mormon service to see my children or to see friends or to experience some sort of fellowship.

Mormons are not perfect, but those who live their faith are good human beings. And I cannot say what they teach is false. Death will enlighten us all as to what is true and false.

That is my simple point. 🙂
 
why_me said:
Mormons are not perfect, but those who live their faith are good human beings. And I cannot say what they teach is false. Death will enlighten us all as to what is true and false.

That is my simple point. 🙂
Click to expand...
Simple, straight to the point, and I couldn’t agree more.
 
To Whyme:
Yes, you and I are in agreement on many things. I have a daughter who converted to LDS in high school. It was a huge heart break for me. She married a young man who is LDS. He is a good man. They have blessed me with three beautiful grandaughters.
I have many LDS friends. There are many things I admire about the LDS church. I just don’t believe there ever was a total apostasy. I’ve read too much early church history to ever be convinced of that. I’m Catholic to the core of my being.
GHBGTM (God Has Been Good To Me)
 
Barb (Okay if I call you that?) -

What documents would you suggest I read to understand your viewpoint? I was raised Mormon, so I obviously come from a standpoint that there was a total apostacy, and none of the teachings I receive in Mormonism really give any leeway to believe otherwise.

I don’t ask necessarily because I feel like I ought to believe what you do, but rather to understand your viewpoint. One thing I have discovered in life is that the more I understand about others, and the more that I understand their beliefs in a way that makes sense, the more tolerant I become.
 
isaac.madsen said:
Barb (Okay if I call you that?) -

What documents would you suggest I read to understand your viewpoint? I was raised Mormon, so I obviously come from a standpoint that there was a total apostacy, and none of the teachings I receive in Mormonism really give any leeway to believe otherwise.

I don’t ask necessarily because I feel like I ought to believe what you do, but rather to understand your viewpoint. One thing I have discovered in life is that the more I understand about others, and the more that I understand their beliefs in a way that makes sense, the more tolerant I become.
Click to expand...
Catholics base their lack of any Apostacy to a line of athority, all the way from Peter.

Check here

History of the Papacy

Seems like the first 300 years may have been a little messy with all the goings on back then, but the Catholic Church basically says that a Priesthood athority in the Church goes all the way back, making it a church without an apostacy.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by why me forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Mormons are not perfect, but those who live their faith are good human beings. And I cannot say what they teach is false. Death will enlighten us all as to what is true and false. *

That is my simple point. 🙂
isaac.madsen said:
Simple, straight to the point, and I couldn’t agree more.
Click to expand...
This is what is so hard about life itself, and it can be a struggle for a truth of some sort.

The MMM was a terrible tragedy, and yes we are all human, and can get caught up into things only to find out our mistakes later.
 
Ok. Thanks for the info, and it’s good to hear from you. I haven’t been on in awhile until recently, but I remember you Geo.
 
isaac.madsen said:
Ok. Thanks for the info, and it’s good to hear from you. I haven’t been on in awhile until recently, but I remember you Geo.
Click to expand...
Yep, been awhile.

I keep a link of this forum on my desktop, so i don’t forget.
 
Happy Sunday to you Isaac, There is a 38 volume set called, ‘The Early Church Fathers’ that contains the writings of the leaders of the Church for the first 800 years. It begins with the ‘Apostolic Fathers’ (the leaders that immediately followed the apostles and were taught by them directly. ) I do not own this entire set. It is rather expensive. If you are really serious about doing some research, I highly recommend the following for a taste of their writings:
Four Wittnesses, The Early Church in Her Own Words
by: Rod Bennett
It is published by Ignatius Press. You can order it at: www.Ignatius.com
or by phone at 1-800-651-1531

Also: The Fathers of the Church: An Introduction to the First Christian Teachers
by: Mike Aquilina
Published by Our Sunday Visitor
on line at osvbooks@osv.com or by phone 1-800-348-2440

The books are under $20.00 each.

I believe there is a web site where it is possible to download the complete Early Church Fathers Collection in Microsoft HTML Help Format, but I can’t find the web address at the moment.

I think Ignatius Press has the entire collection on DVD also.

It is true that there was a lot of heresy being spread at the time. We know what these heresies were. The Early Church Leaders preached widely against them. We can read their homilies. They were diligent in their efforts to preserve and defend the deposit of truth that had been handed on to them by the apostles.
Happy reading,
Barb
 
Barbara_Rae said:
To Whyme:
Yes, you and I are in agreement on many things. I have a daughter who converted to LDS in high school. It was a huge heart break for me. She married a young man who is LDS. He is a good man. They have blessed me with three beautiful grandaughters.
I have many LDS friends. There are many things I admire about the LDS church. I just don’t believe there ever was a total apostasy. I’ve read too much early church history to ever be convinced of that. I’m Catholic to the core of my being.
GHBGTM (God Has Been Good To Me)
Click to expand...
Thanks for this post. The LDS are good people for the most part as is the lds church. I think that it is important that you support your daughter and your husband in their faith. I don’t think that god is a sectarian in attitude. I suppose that He is quite understanding of people as they live inside various Christian faiths.
 
Barbara_Rae said:
Happy Sunday to you Isaac, There is a 38 volume set called, ‘The Early Church Fathers’ that contains the writings of the leaders of the Church for the first 800 years.
Click to expand...
The entire 38 volume set is at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library, here:

ccel.org/fathers.html

You have to register (free) in order to download documents.
 
Rebecca J
Thank you for this!! I have been wanting something online like this for awhile! 👍

The entire 38 volume set is at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library, here:

ccel.org/fathers.html
 
Kristine1957 said:
Rebecca J
Thank you for this!! I have been wanting something online like this for awhile! 👍

The entire 38 volume set is at the Christian Classics Ethereal Library, here:

ccel.org/fathers.html
Click to expand...
It is a gem of a website, I agree there. I found it when I was searching for the Summa Theologica. That is there as well. Also, major and influential writings from all Christian churches.

Another excellent online resource for public domain publications is gutenberg.org
 
RebeccaJ said:
It is a gem of a website, I agree there. I found it when I was searching for the Summa Theologica. That is there as well. Also, major and influential writings from all Christian churches.

Another excellent online resource for public domain publications is gutenberg.org
Click to expand...
Wow, thank you I will have to check it out. This can be bad though sitting and reading all day long…🙂
God bless
 
Every religion has bad episodes in their past where certain members did awful things in the name of their religion–and neither the Catholic Church nor the Mormon Church are exempt from this. The important question becomes whether these atrocities were directed from the highest levels of the church, and whether or not the church then proceeded to cover it up. In the case of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the question is whether or not Brigham Young was directly responsible for ordering the attack. There is considerable circumstantial evidence to indicate that he did in fact order the attack. Young ruled Utah with absolute power. In Utah, there was no difference between church and state. Brigham Young was the absolute leader of both, as was the case with all the early Mormon prophets.

Clearly the LDS church did cover up the massacre by blaming the Paiutes for what happened. This was a deliberate cover-up. Brigham Young did not fess up to the massacre, and even if he was not directly responsible, it would be idiotic to think he didn’t know that the local Mormons were the ones who perpetrated the attack. So in my mind, whether or not Young ordered the attack, his actions (or lack thereof) after the attack greatly calls into question his legitimacy as God’s true prophet on the earth.

Another point I will make comparing Mormons to Catholics is that we Catholics are largely aware of the shortcomings of the church in the past and are familiar with the horrible things that have been done in the name of the faith. Mormons, on the other hand, largely seem to ignore any part of their history that shows the church in a less favorable light. There is defintitely a double standard within the Mormon Church in how they deal with such events. They are quick to point out such events in the Catholic past as evidence for the “Great Apostacy,” but they do not apply the same level of critical analysis to their own past. Therein lies the double-standard. When such things happen with Catholicism, in there view it’s evidence of “apostacy.” When such things happen within Mormonism, it’s “isolated events.”
 
Chris-WA 👍 Your post is what I have been trying to say!!Thank You!!
 
Chris-WA said:
Every religion has bad episodes in their past where certain members did awful things in the name of their religion–and neither the Catholic Church nor the Mormon Church are exempt from this…
Click to expand...
Tru-dat.
 
Chris-WA said:
Another point I will make comparing Mormons to Catholics is that we Catholics are largely aware of the shortcomings of the church in the past and are familiar with the horrible things that have been done in the name of the faith. Mormons, on the other hand, largely seem to ignore any part of their history that shows the church in a less favorable light. There is defintitely a double standard within the Mormon Church in how they deal with such events. They are quick to point out such events in the Catholic past as evidence for the “Great Apostacy,” but they do not apply the same level of critical analysis to their own past. Therein lies the double-standard. When such things happen with Catholicism, in there view it’s evidence of “apostacy.” When such things happen within Mormonism, it’s “isolated events.”
Click to expand...
And I am sure that if you were to go in catholic history you may find that the catholic church was not that quick to own up to their mistakes or atrocities. As time goes on, memories and history seems to fade into the wind and become less threatening. Now catholics can see their atrocities as products of distant history but for mormons the history contained in the Mountain Meadows Massacre was too soon to adjust to.

And it is there that you have the difference.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top