Lds claim that it is absolutely essential that the true church of christ have today twelve apostles

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bill_Pick
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Bill_Pick

Guest
How many Christians Church do we know today that have 12 Apostles
 
The Catholic Church still has twelve Apostles. They’re praying for us in heaven. 😉
 
Yes but I do not think the LDS are talking about the same thing
 
Bill_Pick said:
Yes but I do not think the LDS are talking about the same thing
Click to expand...
No, of course not. 🙂 They are interpreting Scripture as they please regardless of history or Sacred Tradition. I’d expect nothing else.
 
Your OP is not very clear, Bill. It’s hard to comprehend exactly what you are asking. Just saying. But yes, I would say that all Christian churches believe that there were twelve apostles.
 
Della said:
The Catholic Church still has twelve Apostles.
Click to expand...
More than 12, actually… I can think of at least the following:
  1. Peter
  2. Andrew, his brother
  3. James the son of Zebedee
  4. John, his brother
  5. Philip
  6. Bartholemew
  7. Thomas
  8. Matthew
  9. James the son of Alphaeus
  10. Jude Thaddaeus
  11. Simon
  12. Matthias (who replaced Judas)
  13. Paul
  14. Silvanus (Silas)
  15. Timothy - “Paul, Silvanus [Silas], and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians… nor did we seek glory from men, whether from you or from others, though we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.” (1 Thess. 1:1, 2:6)
  16. St. Barnabus - “But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out among the multitude…” (Acts 14:14)
  17. Apollos - “I planted, Apollos watered… He who plants and he who waters are equal.” (1 Cor. 3:6, 8)
  18. St. Titus - who, admittedly, is nowhere in Scripture explicitly called an apostle… but Scripture testifies that only apostles are given full authority. “Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.” (Tit. 2:15)
Does this mean the LDS need at least half a dozen more apostles?
 
Bill_Pick said:
How many Christians Church do we know today that have 12 Apostles
Click to expand...
The LDS Church actually has 15 apostles. They claim that Peter, James, and John were the original “First Presidency”, with Peter as the Prophet, but today, the structure is changed, with the First Presidency existing outside of the Twelve, yet they are all apostles.
 
Erich said:
More than 12, actually… I can think of at least the following:
  1. Peter
  2. Andrew, his brother
  3. James the son of Zebedee
  4. John, his brother
  5. Philip
  6. Bartholemew
  7. Thomas
  8. Matthew
  9. James the son of Alphaeus
  10. Jude Thaddaeus
  11. Simon
  12. Matthias (who replaced Judas)
  13. Paul
  14. Silvanus (Silas)
  15. Timothy - “Paul, Silvanus [Silas], and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians… nor did we seek glory from men, whether from you or from others, though we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.” (1 Thess. 1:1, 2:6)
  16. St. Barnabus - “But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out among the multitude…” (Acts 14:14)
  17. Apollos - “I planted, Apollos watered… He who plants and he who waters are equal.” (1 Cor. 3:6, 8)
  18. St. Titus - who, admittedly, is nowhere in Scripture explicitly called an apostle… but Scripture testifies that only apostles are given full authority. “Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.” (Tit. 2:15)
Does this mean the LDS need at least half a dozen more apostles?
Click to expand...
Erich,
No, it means simply that as an apostle died (such as James as recorded in Acts), a new one was called (Paul), and that was the pattern that was to continue while the gospel was being sent forth in the world and the doctrines needed to be preserved in their purity and simplicity.
 
Bill_Pick said:
How many Christians Church do we know today that have 12 Apostles
Click to expand...
One.

Doesn’t mean that all the other churches are not Christian, though. It just means that the one with the apostles has the revealed truth…and more of it than anybody else.
 
Della said:
No, of course not. 🙂 They are interpreting Scripture as they please regardless of history or Sacred Tradition. I’d expect nothing else.
Click to expand...
Uhm…well, ‘sacred tradition’ is the product of what we Mormons call an apostasy. You can’t really expect us to pay a whole lot of attention to it.
 
Erich said:
More than 12, actually… I can think of at least the following:
  1. Peter
  2. Andrew, his brother
  3. James the son of Zebedee
  4. John, his brother
  5. Philip
  6. Bartholemew
  7. Thomas
  8. Matthew
  9. James the son of Alphaeus
  10. Jude Thaddaeus
  11. Simon
  12. Matthias (who replaced Judas)
  13. Paul
  14. Silvanus (Silas)
  15. Timothy - “Paul, Silvanus [Silas], and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians… nor did we seek glory from men, whether from you or from others, though we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.” (1 Thess. 1:1, 2:6)
  16. St. Barnabus - “But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out among the multitude…” (Acts 14:14)
  17. Apollos - “I planted, Apollos watered… He who plants and he who waters are equal.” (1 Cor. 3:6, 8)
  18. St. Titus - who, admittedly, is nowhere in Scripture explicitly called an apostle… but Scripture testifies that only apostles are given full authority. “Declare these things; exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.” (Tit. 2:15)
Does this mean the LDS need at least half a dozen more apostles?
Click to expand...
Well, they weren’t all apostles at the same time, y’know; some died and were replaced. You mentioned that when you noted the replacement of Judas by Matthias.

But you could be correct…at the moment, we have fifteen of 'em. There is the quorum of the Twelve, and the President of the church and his two counselors are also apostles, and served in the Quorum of the Twelve before they were kicked upstairs, so to speak…
 
ThuriferAcolyte said:
The LDS Church actually has 15 apostles. They claim that Peter, James, and John were the original “First Presidency”, with Peter as the Prophet, but today, the structure is changed, with the First Presidency existing outside of the Twelve, yet they are all apostles.
Click to expand...
How do you figure that this is a ‘change?’
 
dianaiad said:
How do you figure that this is a ‘change?’
Click to expand...
If it isn’t a change then what is it? Peter, James, and John were part of the Twelve, and are being called the “First Presidency”. Today, the “First Presidency” is not part of the Twelve in the Mormon Church. That is a change.
 
. Thus the Mormons argue that since their church today alone has twelve apostles, it must be the true church of Christ.

. Let us examine this matter very closely. The Apostles of the Gospels constituted a unique group. They are known as the “Twelve.”

Yet theirs was not a perpetual institution since the conditions for membership in this select Twelve are laid down in the Acts of the Apostles 1: 21-22. The conditions were two:

. personal experience of the living Jesus while He was here on this earth and
. a witness to His resurrection.

Such conditions could only be fulfilled by some Christian living at that particular time in Palestine.

. According then to the norms laid down in the New Testament, not one of the men who call themselves apostles and help rule the Mormon Church from Salt Lake City could legitimately be successors to the original Twelve chosen by Christ.
 
ThuriferAcolyte said:
If it isn’t a change then what is it? Peter, James, and John were part of the Twelve, and are being called the “First Presidency”. Today, the “First Presidency” is not part of the Twelve in the Mormon Church. That is a change.
Click to expand...
they are still Apostles…and we do know that there were more than twelve apostles in the NT…so how is there a change?
 
dianaiad said:
they are still Apostles…and we do know that there were more than twelve apostles in the NT…so how is there a change?
Click to expand...
I’m not talking about that. What I said was that Peter, James, and John are called the first “First Presidency” and they were members of the Twelve, and never stopped being so. So, the First Presidency was within the Twelve. Currently, the “First Presidency” is outside of the Twelve. That is the change I am talking about.
 
Bill_Pick said:
. Thus the Mormons argue that since their church today alone has twelve apostles, it must be the true church of Christ.
Click to expand...
Not exactly. There is a logical difference between saying that the ‘true church’ has to have twelve apostles, and saying that a church with twelve apostles has to be the true church.
Bill_Pick said:
. Let us examine this matter very closely. The Apostles of the Gospels constituted a unique group. They are known as the “Twelve.”

Yet theirs was not a perpetual institution since the conditions for membership in this select Twelve are laid down in the Acts of the Apostles 1: 21-22. The conditions were two:

. personal experience of the living Jesus while He was here on this earth and
. a witness to His resurrection.
Click to expand...
Except of course, Paul was neither, and Paul was an apostle.
Bill_Pick said:
Such conditions could only be fulfilled by some Christian living at that particular time in Palestine.

. According then to the norms laid down in the New Testament, not one of the men who call themselves apostles and help rule the Mormon Church from Salt Lake City could legitimately be successors to the original Twelve chosen by Christ.
Click to expand...
 
ThuriferAcolyte said:
so Mormons believe that Paul was one of the Twelve?
Click to expand...
Paul was an apostle. He was not, obviously, one of the ORIGINAL twelve, but he was an apostle, as was Mattias and a few others who were not of the original twelve.

Judas, you notice, WAS one of the original twelve…he was replaced very, very quickly.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top