LDS, contradictions in scripture and doctrine

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If you accept the Bible as true scripture than how could you claim to become “gods” after accepting the writtings of Issaih when he writes “Is there a God besides me, a maker whom I know not?” or when it reads “Before me there was no God formed, and after me there shall be none.” And he goes on to say " I am, I am the Lord: and there is no saviour besides me." which this quite clearly shows the trinity.

And in the Book of Mormon in 3 Nephi it states “baptize in my name for behold verily i say unto you that the father and the son and the holy gost are one and i am in the father and the father in me and the father and i are one.” which also shows the trinity in the book of mormon.

There are others but i would like to start with these
 
I’m going to save everyone a lot of time and cut to the chase:

LDS define words differently than any* Christians do.

For instance, Mormons define “one” as it is used in your second quote to mean “one in purpose” not “one in substance.” They define “one” in that context as “complete unity of purpose and perfection.” Or something. Christians, on the other hand, define “one” as, you know, “one.”

That’s pretty much the crux of every dispute that arises between Christian and LDS apologists. Mormons would tell you that they are defining words the way Heavenly Father wants them to be defined. Christians would say that continual re-definition of crucial words is a symptom of the fundamental weakness and unreliability of LDS theology. LDS members say, in essence, that no one interpreted the Bible correctly until Joseph Smith came along and that the Book of Mormon “clarifies” a lot of the more cryptic/prophetic statements the Bible makes. Christians say it sounds pretty fishy that every single church Jesus established on the earth failed until Joseph Smith came along.

(* - To be fair, Mormons consider themselves Christians. But to be even more fair, they do that by redefining what the word “Christian” means. And around and around and around we go…)
 
Crdl2Grv said:
I’m going to save everyone a lot of time and cut to the chase:

LDS define words differently than any* Christians do.

For instance, Mormons define “one” as it is used in your second quote to mean “one in purpose” not “one in substance.” They define “one” in that context as “complete unity of purpose and perfection.” Or something. Christians, on the other hand, define “one” as, you know, “one.”

That’s pretty much the crux of every dispute that arises between Christian and LDS apologists. Mormons would tell you that they are defining words the way Heavenly Father wants them to be defined. Christians would say that continual re-definition of crucial words is a symptom of the fundamental weakness and unreliability of LDS theology. LDS members say, in essence, that no one interpreted the Bible correctly until Joseph Smith came along and that the Book of Mormon “clarifies” a lot of the more cryptic/prophetic statements the Bible makes. Christians say it sounds pretty fishy that every single church Jesus established on the earth failed until Joseph Smith came along.

(* - To be fair, Mormons consider themselves Christians. But to be even more fair, they do that by redefining what the word “Christian” means. And around and around and around we go…)
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Yes i have had similar conversations on here but the quote from isiah is kinda hard to say is in cryptic writing, it verly clearly states what God said and i would love to hear an LDS rational behind this.
The God of the Jews is the God of Christians both the Father and Jesus call themslelves I Am there should be no mix ups on who and what God is.
 
Before me there was no God formed, and after me there shall be none

Forgive me if this is off topic, but does the Bible say if God was formed or created? or if he just always existed without a beginning?
 
mdisse said:
Before me there was no God formed, and after me there shall be none

Forgive me if this is off topic, but does the Bible say if God was formed or created? or if he just always existed without a beginning?
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Well he is called the Alpha and Omega, or the begining and end.
other than that i am not sure
Also to my LDS brothers i ask this question did God make the universe out of pre existing material or was the universe out of nothing?
 
rock17 said:
Well he is called the Alpha and Omega, or the begining and end.
other than that i am not sure
Also to my LDS brothers i ask this question did God make the universe out of pre existing material or was the universe out of nothing?
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With respect, there is either something or nothing. God exists, therefore there is something. Or do you not agree?
 
wussup said:
With respect, there is either something or nothing. God exists, therefore there is something. Or do you not agree?
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The difference is that Mormons believe that the universe has always existed and that their “god” is a product of the universe and arose from within it, while Christians believe that God created the universe (as well as time) and therefore is independent of the universe and lives outside of it.

Huge difference. Before God created all things, nothing existed except God Himself.

Paul (formerly LDS, now gratefully Catholic)
 
If someone believes that the material that makes up our universe such as the atoms and so forth always exsited than that would put it on the same level as God making it eternal, and taking away the special attribute of God’s eternal exsitence.
 
rock17 said:
If someone believes that the material that makes up our universe such as the atoms and so forth always exsited than that would put it on the same level as God making it eternal, and taking away the special attribute of God’s eternal exsitence.
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They believe that all matter, including their gods and we, have always existed, though in more primitive forms, so we are all co-eternal with their god. They do not believe that their god is the first god. In fact, they believe that their god has a god who has a god… ad infinitum. They believe that their god (and all of us) started out as raw “intelligences”, whatever that means, and that gods are intelligences that progressed until they became gods. They think that they can also progress to godhood.

One thing they never deal with is: How did the very first god claw his way up from intelligence to godhood?

At present, to become a god your “intelligence” must be born into a spirit-child of a “heavenly father-god and heavenly mother-goddess”, be sent to an earth-like planet to obtain a physical body, and obey all the rules of your heavenly father-god. If you are completely obedient, then your heavenly father-god will “exalt” you and make you into a god. You and your eternal wives (now heavenly mother-goddesses) will have spirit-children and start the whole cycle again.

How then did the very first one to become a god do it? He had no “heavenly father and heavenly mother” to organize his intelligence into a spirit-child and send him to an earth to get a physical body and give him a gospel to obey, so how did he get exalted?

I know the LDS say that there was never a time when there were no gods, but that just doesn’t make sense given their list of requirements for godhood. It is that infinite regression thing again…

Paul (formerly LDS, now gratefully Catholic)
 
PaulDupre said:
They believe that all matter, including their gods and we, have always existed, though in more primitive forms, so we are all co-eternal with their god. They do not believe that their god is the first god. In fact, they believe that their god has a god who has a god… ad infinitum. They believe that their god (and all of us) started out as raw “intelligences”, whatever that means, and that gods are intelligences that progressed until they became gods. They think that they can also progress to godhood.

One thing they never deal with is: How did the very first god claw his way up from intelligence to godhood?

At present, to become a god your “intelligence” must be born into a spirit-child of a “heavenly father-god and heavenly mother-goddess”, be sent to an earth-like planet to obtain a physical body, and obey all the rules of your heavenly father-god. If you are completely obedient, then your heavenly father-god will “exalt” you and make you into a god. You and your eternal wives (now heavenly mother-goddesses) will have spirit-children and start the whole cycle again.

How then did the very first one to become a god do it? He had no “heavenly father and heavenly mother” to organize his intelligence into a spirit-child and send him to an earth to get a physical body and give him a gospel to obey, so how did he get exalted?

I know the LDS say that there was never a time when there were no gods, but that just doesn’t make sense given their list of requirements for godhood. It is that infinite regression thing again…

Paul (formerly LDS, now gratefully Catholic)
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exaclty paul, not only does it not make sense but isiah says that and i believe that there are BOM verses that claim there is only one God, so any lds out there like to speak to this?
 
rock17 said:
exaclty paul, not only does it not make sense but isiah says that and i believe that there are BOM verses that claim there is only one God, so any lds out there like to speak to this?
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The LDS say that it means that although there are gods without number, there is only one god for this planet - only one god with whom we have anything to do, even though in Isaiah God says “Is there a God beside me? There is no God, I know not any.” (Isaiah 44:8)

If God says He does not know of any other god, then the LDS are claiming that either:
  1. God is not all-knowing and is ignorant of this multitude of gods, or
  2. God lied to Isaiah.
Neither opinion reflects well on the LDS.

Paul (formerly LDS, now gratefully Catholic)
 
PaulDupre said:
They believe that all matter, including their gods and we, have always existed, though in more primitive forms, so we are all co-eternal with their god. They do not believe that their god is the first god. In fact, they believe that their god has a god who has a god… ad infinitum. They believe that their god (and all of us) started out as raw “intelligences”, whatever that means, and that gods are intelligences that progressed until they became gods. They think that they can also progress to godhood.

One thing they never deal with is: How did the very first god claw his way up from intelligence to godhood?

At present, to become a god your “intelligence” must be born into a spirit-child of a “heavenly father-god and heavenly mother-goddess”, be sent to an earth-like planet to obtain a physical body, and obey all the rules of your heavenly father-god. If you are completely obedient, then your heavenly father-god will “exalt” you and make you into a god. You and your eternal wives (now heavenly mother-goddesses) will have spirit-children and start the whole cycle again.

How then did the very first one to become a god do it? He had no “heavenly father and heavenly mother” to organize his intelligence into a spirit-child and send him to an earth to get a physical body and give him a gospel to obey, so how did he get exalted?

I know the LDS say that there was never a time when there were no gods, but that just doesn’t make sense given their list of requirements for godhood. It is that infinite regression thing again…

Paul (formerly LDS, now gratefully Catholic)
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Mormons humanize God because they cannot understand eternity and they desperately want to try to understand and even though they try, they cannot get to the first cause.

I do not have a clue about the absolute immensity of God and that’s okay with me. I am not trying to be God. I know I will never be God and that is just the way things are.

I am just very grateful that God is.
 
Crdl2Grv said:
I’m going to save everyone a lot of time and cut to the chase:

LDS define words differently than any* Christians do.

For instance, Mormons define “one” as it is used in your second quote to mean “one in purpose” not “one in substance.” They define “one” in that context as “complete unity of purpose and perfection.” Or something. Christians, on the other hand, define “one” as, you know, “one.”

That’s pretty much the crux of every dispute that arises between Christian and LDS apologists. Mormons would tell you that they are defining words the way Heavenly Father wants them to be defined. Christians would say that continual re-definition of crucial words is a symptom of the fundamental weakness and unreliability of LDS theology. LDS members say, in essence, that no one interpreted the Bible correctly until Joseph Smith came along and that the Book of Mormon “clarifies” a lot of the more cryptic/prophetic statements the Bible makes. Christians say it sounds pretty fishy that every single church Jesus established on the earth failed until Joseph Smith came along.

(* - To be fair, Mormons consider themselves Christians. But to be even more fair, they do that by redefining what the word “Christian” means. And around and around and around we go…)
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Does this mean then that they consider that they’ll be God when they die? That they’ll keep their individiuality, but be the one and only God too?
 
ZhaneAugustine said:
Does this mean then that they consider that they’ll be God when they die? That they’ll keep their individiuality, but be the one and only God too?
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Not really “God” but A “god” yes. I thought Mormons had backed away from this and pulled out their Gospel Principles book (the book they use for Sunday School for their recent converts and others needing basic instruction) and it indeed says that “exalted people” can “become gods”.
 
ZhaneAugustine said:
Does this mean then that they consider that they’ll be God when they die? That they’ll keep their individiuality, but be the one and only God too?
Click to expand...
Zhane,

Absolutely not, is the answer to both of your questions.

The “one and only God” or “one and only Savior” of the Old Testament was and is Jehovah, Jesus Christ, who is truly the one and only Savior just as the Bible teaches throughout.

Jesus truly has and had a Father. They are One.

Jesus prayed that His followers be one with Them.

His covenant followers, if they keep all of their covenants, can become one with Them, just as Jesus prayed in His intercessory prayer. See John 17, entire chapter.

A Bible reader, serious about knowing what God offers throught the atoning grace of His Beloved Son, Immanuel, the Anointed One, should be very familiar with John 17 and should also become very familiar with the Book of Revelation, where John was shown the promises that describe what John 17 was talking about, in greater detail, describing the blessings to “he that overcometh”.
 
hey parker
i was wondering if you could answers to the isiah quote about how no other gods will be formed and how God knows not of other gods?
 
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