LDS, Creeds, and the Trinity

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Very true. I don’t fully understand the difference in the Catholic definition of “persons” and “beings” in describing the Trinity.
For example if I say: “Joseph Smith saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and he saw that they were two separate persons.” Would that be OK?

But if I said: “Joseph Smith saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and he saw that they were two separate beings.” Would that not be OK?

To an LDS I am saying the same thing. What am I saying when speaking to a Catholic? I hope a Catholic will answer this as I am still trying to understand the difference.
The correct way to say it would be that he saw “two distinct Persons” (see post #2 again for why Trinitarians says “distinct but not separate”). Yes, to an LDS you’re saying the same thing, while in orthodox Trinitarian theology (not limited to Catholicism), you’re not, again because we’re dealing with translations of Greek and Latin words, defined in this specific theological context over a thousand years ago.

Another issue with this is understanding the nature of God and man. In the LDS faith, God and man are of the same nature. There is no ontological distinction between the Divine and man (since man is the literal spiritual offspring of the Father and Mother). The difference between God and man is therefore one of progression or advancement.

In contrast, in Trinitarian faiths, God and man are of different natures, as different as a dog and a cat. While it is accepted that only humans are created in the image and likeness of God, this does not mean, to Trinitarians, that God and man have the same nature. Only the Persons of God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) are of the Divine nature, which is in part what their oneness of “being” (again, also referred to as “nature” or “essence” or “substance”) entails. I believe one of the ECFs said something like “God became man so that man can become, by grace, what God is by nature”. That highlights another important difference.
 
Very true. I don’t fully understand the difference in the Catholic definition of “persons” and “beings” in describing the Trinity.
For example if I say: “Joseph Smith saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and he saw that they were two separate persons.” Would that be OK?

But if I said: “Joseph Smith saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and he saw that they were two separate beings.” Would that not be OK?

To an LDS I am saying the same thing. What am I saying when speaking to a Catholic? I hope a Catholic will answer this as I am still trying to understand the difference.
First, that would depend on which of the various versions of the alleged vision you are using, since in some versions, he only saw one “being”.

Second, you never addressed the issue of using the same names to mean different people…
 
The correct way to say it would be that he saw “two distinct Persons” (see post #2 again for why Trinitarians says “distinct but not separate”). Yes, to an LDS you’re saying the same thing, while in orthodox Trinitarian theology (not limited to Catholicism), you’re not, again because we’re dealing with translations of Greek and Latin words, defined in this specific theological context over a thousand years ago.

Another issue with this is understanding the nature of God and man. In the LDS faith, God and man are of the same nature. There is no ontological distinction between the Divine and man (since man is the literal spiritual offspring of the Father and Mother). The difference between God and man is therefore one of progression or advancement.

In contrast, in Trinitarian faiths, God and man are of different natures, as different as a dog and a cat. While it is accepted that only humans are created in the image and likeness of God, this does not mean, to Trinitarians, that God and man have the same nature. Only the Persons of God (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) are of the Divine nature, which is in part what their oneness of “being” (again, also referred to as “nature” or “essence” or “substance”) entails. I believe one of the ECFs said something like “God became man so that man can become, by grace, what God is by nature”. That highlights another important difference.
With the orthodox Trinity, the belief is that the Trinity has always existed as such. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost have always existed as the Trinity, and there never was a time when any Person of the Trinity didn’t exist, or didn’t exist in that Trinitarian relationship. The Son is eternally the Son, the Holy Ghost is eternally the Holy Ghost, the Father is eternally the Father, and there never was a time where one existed and another didn’t. This is what is meant by “distinct but not separate”. They are distinct Persons, not each other, and they have eternally existed in their roles. God is one, but not solitary (and never has been). I believe the CCC has that phrase (with my parenthetical addition).
I guess I am trying to make things to simple, but I am just trying to understand the difference between a “person” and a “being”. Now, I also need to know the difference between “distinct” and “separate.”🤷
 
I guess I am trying to make things to simple, but I am just trying to understand the difference between a “person” and a “being”. Now, I also need to know the difference between “distinct” and “separate.”🤷
One of the problems with most heresies and those who came along as false prophets is the need and attempts to force God into a little box we could all understand.

This leads to doctrines such as God once being a sinful man, etc.

God is clear when He tells us that His ways are not our ways. We are not meant to understand all there is to know about God.

The Trinity just IS. How and why is not our concern. It just is. Like other things I cannot explain: the parting of the Red Sea, the Changing of Water into Wine, the Resurrection, the making the blind see, etc. Those things just ARE.

God is not a person or thing that we should diminish in our attempts to understand.

Be Blessed
 
I guess I am trying to make things to simple, but I am just trying to understand the difference between a “person” and a “being”. Now, I also need to know the difference between “distinct” and “separate.”🤷
The difference between “distinct” and “separate”, within its Trinitarian theological usage, was already given, and quoted by you in your last post. Again, “distinct” means that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not each other. The Father is not the Son nor the Holy Ghost. The Son is not the Father nor the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is not the Father nor the Son. They are really distinct from each other, as we see at Christ’s baptism in the Bible. “Not separate” means that they have an eternal relationship with each other, a mutual interdependence, where they eternally exist as the Trinity. There was never a time when they did not exist as the Trinity. There was never a time when any Person of the Trinity did not exist. Their unity, as the Trinity, is eternal. You cannot have the Father without the Son. You cannot have the Son without the Father. You cannot have the Holy Ghost without the Father. Etc. Trinitarians therefore avoid saying that they are “separate” Persons because that can imply a degree of separation as relates to their individual existence that isn’t there.

This contrasts with the LDS view of the Godhead, as already mentioned, where the Godhead has not existed as such for eternity. There was a time when the Son did not exist as a member of the Godhead, until He was spiritually begotten, as we all were, by Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, and He became the Savior after the Council of Heaven. The same goes for the Holy Ghost, another begotten son of God. Joseph Smith taught that the Persons entered into an “everlasting covenant”, so they therefore became “the Godhead” through agreement. This contrasts with the Trinitarian view where the Trinity exists as such by nature. Therefore, there is a “separation” in the LDS Godhead that isn’t found in the orthodox Trinity.

Frank Sheed provides a very concise and easy to understand definition of the Trinity in his book Theology and Sanity, in the chapter “Three Persons in One Nature”. It is important to realize that “Being” in Trinitarian theology is used interchangeably with “Nature”, “Essence”, or “Substance”. We see this in the CCC. Remember, these are English translations of the Greek word “ousia”. I prefer “Nature” over “Being”, because it gets to the actual point that is being made. So when you read the below, you can substitute “being” for “nature” in answer to your question.

"Nature answers the question what we are; person answers the question who we are…By our nature, then, we are what we are. It follows that by our nature we do what we do: for every being acts according to what it is…Although my nature is the source of all my actions, although my nature decides what kind of operations are possible for me, it is not my nature that does them: I do them, I the person. The person is that which does the actions, the nature is that by virtue of which the actions are done, or, better, that from which the actions are drawn."

So simply, “Being” means nature, or what something is (another Trinitarian author uses the phrase “the attributes of divinity” when defining the word in the theological context). For Trintiarians, only God is God. Man is of a different nature than God. For Mormons, God and man are of the same nature, God is just more advanced, or further along in His progression. “Person” refers to the “who”, or an individual entity or existence.

As an aside, I’m always intrigued when I see LDS authors saying “separate and distinct”. Not sure if there’s a theological reasoning behind using both words.
 
One of the problems with most heresies and those who came along as false prophets is the need and attempts to force God into a little box we could all understand.

This leads to doctrines such as God once being a sinful man, etc.

God is clear when He tells us that His ways are not our ways. We are not meant to understand all there is to know about God.

The Trinity just IS. How and why is not our concern. It just is. Like other things I cannot explain: the parting of the Red Sea, the Changing of Water into Wine, the Resurrection, the making the blind see, etc. Those things just ARE.

God is not a person or thing that we should diminish in our attempts to understand.

Be Blessed
I am simply trying address or understand the criticism that Mormons use terms that have a different meaning to Trinitarians. I am only asking what is meant by the terms “persons” and “beings.”
 
Sheed also touches on the issue of “distinct not separate”, and essentially says what I already said:

"the three persons are distinct, but not separate…we must not say three separate persons, but three distinct persons, because although they are distinct-that is to say, no one of them is either of the others-yet they cannot be separated, for each is what he is by the total possession of the one same nature: apart from that one same nature, no one of the three persons could exist at all."

As we see, the orthodox Trinity uses precise words and terminology to define it, an issue that is generally not understood by LDS attempting to critique it, and many times it is also lost on the average believer in the orthodox Trinity, who isn’t aware of the environment from which the formal definitions were provided.
 
I am simply trying address or understand the criticism that Mormons use terms that have a different meaning to Trinitarians. I am only asking what is meant by the terms “persons” and “beings.”
God is God. What word do we use? God is not really either. We use the best words we can . Is God a person? No. Is God a being? Well, in the sense God is SOMETHING…God is “I AM”.

the problem goes much deeper than what word we use to describe God. The problem goes to what we consider God to be. Is God the God of the Bible who is infinite and never changing or is God the once-sinful man who is now exalted? That is the true issue.
 
As we see, the orthodox Trinity uses precise words and terminology to define it, an issue that is generally not understood by LDS attempting to critique it, and many times it is also lost on the average believer in the orthodox Trinity, who isn’t aware of the environment from which the formal definitions were provided.
Yes, I am sure that is true. But what I an trying to understand is the exact meaning of those precise words and terminology of the orthodox Trinity. For example Stephen saw “Jesus standing on the right hand of God.” Mormons would say Stephen saw two divine Persons, or two divine Beings, and would simply assume by Stephes discription that they were separate and distinct. How would Catholics describe what Stephen saw?
 
Yes, I am sure that is true. But what I an trying to understand is the exact meaning of those precise words and terminology of the orthodox Trinity.
Great. I’ve already posted multiple times on that. Here’s something else I wrote awhile ago:

cath2lds.wordpress.com/2010/02/28/the-traditional-concept-of-the-trinity/

That should be more than enough to help you understand. I’m not saying you should accept it as Truth (I’m not there either). Just understand what they’re talking about.
For example Stephen saw “Jesus standing on the right hand of God.” Mormons would say Stephen saw two divine Persons, or two divine Beings, and would simply assume by Stephes discription that they were separate and distinct. How would Catholics describe what Stephen saw?
Well, that is a little complex, not because of the distinction between Persons that is taught in the orthodox Trinity, but because of the issue of physicality/materiality and God (which is a separate issue from the distinction between Persons, pun intended).

Trinitarians do not believe that the Father is material or physical. Only the Son is, because He incarnated on the earth. So, you wouldn’t “see” God the Father as a physical entity, unless He chose to appear as such, like in a theophany. Also, many Catholics and traditional Christians accept that “right hand of God” is a phrase that means a place of honor or power, and not necessarily as a physical placement. However, there is nothing contrary to the Trinity to believe that Stephen saw Christ standing at the right hand of the Father (again, the Father choosing to appear as a man, not that He is a man or is embodied), and that he saw two distinct Persons. Similarly, Trinitarians look to the baptism of Jesus as evidence of the distinction between Persons.

Also, I’m curious as to why you say “they were separate and distinct”. Why do you use both words?
 
Yes, I am sure that is true. But what I an trying to understand is the exact meaning of those precise words and terminology of the orthodox Trinity. For example Stephen saw “Jesus standing on the right hand of God.” Mormons would say Stephen saw two divine Persons, or two divine Beings, and would simply assume by Stephes discription that they were separate and distinct. How would Catholics describe what Stephen saw?
You are a being, I am a being. We are two distinct and separate beings. I am a person you are a person. We are two distinct and separate persons.

God is One being, of three persons. We accept this because this is what God has revealed about Himself. Scripture (the Bible) tells us there is One God, and no other. God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Being and substance are ideas that come from metaphysics. Aristotle is a good place to begin a study on their meanings.

I think it important to clarify that God is not created. God IS. God has named Himself “I AM”, not “I BECOME”. So when we say God is as separate from creation as a dog from a cat, it is important to understand that God does not have a genus or a species. Those are things to describe, and classify, what God has created.
 
I am simply trying address or understand the criticism that Mormons use terms that have a different meaning to Trinitarians. I am only asking what is meant by the terms “persons” and “beings.”
A person is an individual substance of a rational nature.
A being is anything that is.
A brick is a being and not a person.
A human is a being and one person.
God is a being with three persons.
 
One of the problems with most heresies and those who came along as false prophets is the need and attempts to force God into a little box we could all understand.

This leads to doctrines such as God once being a sinful man, etc.

God is clear when He tells us that His ways are not our ways. We are not meant to understand all there is to know about God.

The Trinity just IS. How and why is not our concern. It just is. Like other things I cannot explain: the parting of the Red Sea, the Changing of Water into Wine, the Resurrection, the making the blind see, etc. Those things just ARE.

God is not a person or thing that we should diminish in our attempts to understand.

Be Blessed
Hmmmm…AhHa…The mystery of faith!👍
 
You are a being, I am a being. We are two distinct and separate beings. I am a person you are a person. We are two distinct and separate persons.

God is One being, of three persons. We accept this because this is what God has revealed about Himself. Scripture (the Bible) tells us there is One God, and no other. God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Being and substance are ideas that come from metaphysics. Aristotle is a good place to begin a study on their meanings.

I think it important to clarify that God is not created. God IS. God has named Himself “I AM”, not “I BECOME”. So when we say God is as separate from creation as a dog from a cat, it is important to understand that God does not have a genus or a species. Those are things to describe, and classify, what God has created.
The sad thing is that “philosophy” is a four letter word according to most Mormons I have read. It is precisely Greek philosophy that they claim led us down the primrose path. They are not familiar with the philosophical (or metaphysical) terms used by mankind since the time of Aristotle in speaking of truth and explaining that which is beyond our senses; “being”, “person”, “uncaused cause”…, etc.

Without the tools of philosophical language and concepts, God becomes anthropomorphized; the Father now has a body of flesh and bone. He procreates just like the rest of us, requiring a wife or wives in order create his children. In the absence of revealed truth and the language required to define it, God becomes more and more diminished until He is unrecognizable by the rest of Christianity.
 
The sad thing is that “philosophy” is a four letter word according to most Mormons I have read. It is precisely Greek philosophy that they claim led us down the primrose path. They are not familiar with the philosophical (or metaphysical) terms used by mankind since the time of Aristotle in speaking of truth and explaining that which is beyond our senses; “being”, “person”, “uncaused cause”…, etc.

Without the tools of philosophical language and concepts, God becomes anthropomorphized; the Father now has a body of flesh and bone. He procreates just like the rest of us, requiring a wife or wives in order create his children. In the absence of revealed truth and the language required to define it, God becomes more and more diminished until He is unrecognizable by the rest of Christianity.
Yes, for Mormons, reason is a threat to faith.
 
I think a major difference between the two, outside of the LDS understanding that there are three Gods that are one because they are in agreement and have the same will, is on the issue of the eternality of the Trinity vs Godhead. I mentioned this in another thread, but I think it’s important, so I’ll mention it again (and I don’t believe you engaged it) :).
When you mentioned earlier that the doctrine of the Trinity was never formally defined in English and that one needed to know (was it?) Latin, I knew I had nothing of value with which to respond, hence the silence.
 
I found a pretty interesting verse in the Bible, and if I understand it correctly, it disproves the Book of Mormon. Here it is:

Galatians 1:7-9
 
I found a pretty interesting verse in the Bible, and if I understand it correctly, it disproves the Book of Mormon. Here it is:

Galatians 1:7-9
I don’t know if I’ve ever heard an LDS defense of that verse. I’d be very interested in hearing it, if any of our LDS posters have the time 🙂
 
When you mentioned earlier that the doctrine of the Trinity was never formally defined in English and that one needed to know (was it?) Latin, I knew I had nothing of value with which to respond, hence the silence.
To be clear, what I said that the doctrine of the Trinity was formally defined (i.e., the various ancient Ecumenical Councils, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, the Athanasian Creed, etc), not in an English speaking world, but in the Greek and Latin speaking worlds. Therefore, words such as “Person” and “Being” are English translations of those Greek/Latin words that were used over a thousand years ago, within that specific theological/philosophical framework, therefore we cannot apply our modern English usage of those words, if they don’t fit the actual ancient context from which the Trinity formal definition came from (hence why LDS critical arguments against the Trinity usually argue against Modalism (i.e. the infamous “why was Jesus praying to Himself??” question), and not the actual orthodox Trinity doctrine).

So, it’s not that one needs to know Latin or Greek (I certainly don’t!), but that we should understand the theological and philosophical framework that the formal definition of the Trinity comes from, and understand why these specific words (“person”, “being/essence/substance/nature”, “separate”, “distinct”) are being used, and what they mean within the doctrine (instead of applying our modern usage of those words, if they don’t fit the context).

Hope that helps!
 
I found a pretty interesting verse in the Bible, and if I understand it correctly, it disproves the Book of Mormon. Here it is:

Galatians 1:7-9
But there is a test that proves the Book of Mormon:

1 John 4:1-3

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The angel Moroni states that Christ did come in the flesh. In the first vision God presents Christ in his resurrected form.
 
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