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pablope
Guest
No problem Camp…saw yourI’m just pulling your leg, my friend. No need to apologize.
And the video you posted was well worth the time. Thanks.
…I just hope our brethen would take the time to see it. 
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…I just hope our brethen would take the time to see it.
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pablope
Guest
Interesting…question, if I may…and I do not want to butt in…please take your time to answer it…
If we, humanity was completed by Jesus Christ…what kind of form was humanity before he arrived here on earth? Weren’t there already completed human beings before he arrived here on earth? Weren’t there already empires, armies warring against each other prior to Christ, not just here in the Americas…but there are the persians, babylonians, assyrians, philistines…
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ParkerD
Guest
Pablope,
We were spirits, and so was He–we were imperfect, and He was perfect. He was the Word, Alpha and Omega, the Firstborn. “The Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us”. Before He was born, He lived as Jehovah and completed the Creation of this world, and added man (Adam) and woman (Eve) to the physical world to begin bringing about the plan of salvation that included Himself coming to earth as the Savior of the world.
So, yes, there were already completed human beings before He arrived here on earth as the baby Jesus, and He existed before that birth as a Spirit, as God the Son.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
If we always existed, then we are neither the creation or literal offspring of God.
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ParkerD
Guest
Acts 17: 28-29
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
"Definition of CREATION (Merriam-Webster)
1
: the act of creating; especially : the act of bringing the world into ordered existence
2
: the act of making, inventing, or producing: as
a : the act of investing with a new rank or office
b : the first representation of a dramatic role
3
: something that is created: as
a : world
b : creatures singly or in aggregate
c : an original work of art
d : a new usually striking article of clothing
Examples of CREATION
The play continues to entertain audiences 25 years after its creation.
Job creation will be an important issue in next year’s elections.
These changes will lead to the creation of new businesses.
The company was largely the creation of one woman.
Come taste our chef’s delicious new creations.
She’s wearing one of her original fashion creations.
How are humans different from the rest of creation?
First Known Use of CREATION
14th century"
I think the word “creation” fits just fine about us being part of “Creation”.
As to the word “offspring”, I certainly don’t disagree with the Apostle Paul in his use of the word that was translated into the word “offspring”.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
I don’'t disagree with St. Paul either. But you see he didn’t say anything about being the offspring of Heavenly parents as your Prophet has in a formal declaration to the world. Nor did he say anything about our existing eternally as “intelligences”.
If individual intelligences always existed as such and had different abilities then they are no more the creation of God than Eliza Doolittle the lady is a creation of Higgins.
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pablope
Guest
Thanks, parker…further questions or clarifications:
If there were completed human beings before Christ’s birth, these humans then were perfect already? (no need for further creation) …what happened to those human beings? Aren’t we, in effect, their descendants? What happened to these humans after Christ’s birth?
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ParkerD
Guest
Pablope,
No, they weren’t perfect (i.e. Adam and Eve nor their descendants except for Christ, He being the singular case who was perfect). All the others began their lives on earth as innocent persons, but not with the perfection that Christ’s spirit brought from His pre-mortal life nor certainly with the ability to resurrect themselves when they died, which Christ had.
We all are descendants of Adam and Eve. All who live and die on earth are descendants of Adam and Eve, and go to the spirit world after death. Some have been resurrected, subsequent to Christ’s resurrection, but the rest of those who have died are in the spirit world from which they will eventually be resurrected.
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SnakeMauler
Guest
Dude why do you guys keep calling them out? They’re already “wrong” for a million other reasons way less technical than this. By saying this, you’re like saying that you’re ok with everything else except this. Seriously dude. Theres only like 13 million of them and a billion Catholics. And we know we have an omniscient God who founded a supernatural church who he assured wouldn’t fall into “apostasy.” I think that partially speaks for itself.
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campeador
Guest
My friend, I asked if you would care to explain LDS beliefs using Scripture or other documents. I must now assume that you do not care to explain, but leave us to glean your answer from one enigmatic passage of your ‘bible’.Campeador,
The answer was “no”. The scripture gave you context for that answer. I tried to make it simpler before, but you wanted “scripture”, not simple. Now you have it both ways…
Going back to the FAIR article, it would seem that the LDS place a lot of credence on Lactantius and his work The Divine Institutions, even with his “lack of grasp on Christian principles and his almost utter ignorance of Scripture”. The FAIR author claims that Lactantius’ work “corresponds to LDS doctrine”, and lists some examples. It is in these examples we find the words “God made” and “He produced”, suggesting God made/produced Jesus.
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campeador
Guest
My friend, my intent is to understand the LDS more fully. This is not a “call out”. Saying “They’re already “wrong” for a million other reasons” suggest a total disrespect for them and their beliefs. Please, try to be more charitable to our wayward brothers and sisters in Christ.
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tundramom
Guest
Jello? meet wall.
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SnakeMauler
Guest
Try understanding our Muslim brothers and sisters who there are actually about a billion of and will actually pose a threat if we don’t have good relations to them and will actually affect your lives or your children’s lives. Seriously if you’re that concerned baout their beliefs you’d research them yourself.
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SteveVH
Guest
No one’s got a gun to your head, SnakeMauler. If you don’t like this particular thread then don’t participate.
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Holly3278
Guest
I was a Latter-day Saint at one time. I became a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in about 2007 I think. I withdrew my membership after about a year. I do not recall anyone ever saying that Jesus was not created or created. I always believed He was begotten as I had been taught during RCIA in 2005-2006.
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SteveVH
Guest
God said “let there be light”, and there was light. Doesn’t seem like a process to me. When God speaks his words become reality. I don’t know where you ever got the idea that God organized existing “intelligences” to create human beings. Only God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is eternal, everything else is created. Parker, I mean no offense here, but you wonder why the rest of Christianity does not consider Mormons to be Christians? Ideas like this do not help the cause.
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campeador
Guest
But why? If they have the fullness of Truth they should proclaim the Truth, not be ambiguous about it.
Luke 8:16
No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth [it] under a bed; but setteth [it] on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
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pismopal
Guest
Interjecting here…it would be nice if the charity concept were to be reciprocated. I do not think that the LDS position regarding the Catholic Church being “apostate” and the official position that Christ abandoned our Church so as to allow JS to lead believers 1800 years later is all that respectful or charitable and it darn sure isn’t true. I am not trying to interfere with the polite interaction here but don’t you have to… sooner or later…challenge a lie?
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ParkerD
Guest
Campeador,
I assure you first off that I had never heard of Lactantius, nor do I plan to study up on his writings. When you read a FAIR article you may on occasion find certain authors who have sought to build a bridge between the writings of ancient times and how they might fit in with LDS beliefs or even with current Catholic beliefs. This does not mean the LDS approach the study of the Bible or of other scriptures in that way, at all. So as far as I’m concerned, no need to defend or refute Lactantius.
The Book of Abraham is in the Pearl of Great Price. Abraham had a knowledge of astronomy and of knowledge hidden from the world. But granted, his writings are not on an elementary level–more like Isaiah’s writings.
Maybe you could seek out some of the writings of Truman Madsen or of Hugh Nibley, if you want a scholarly approach to the idea of the intelligences being eternal. The word “organized” would be synonymous with the word “made” or “produced” within the context of how LDS view the divine Son of God in relationship to His Father in Heaven, but it is to be understood as “made from an intelligence” or “brought forth from an intelligence” and not “created from nothing”. It is also essential if one desires to understand LDS doctrine on this subject, to understand that Firstborn means exactly that, and the time frame was before what we look at as our “eternity” since we know nothing about what it was to be an “intelligence” and from our perspective, our “eternity” began when we were made into spirits. Christ was already God the Son, the Firstborn, at that point when we were made (or “organized”) into spirits.
So Christ, as Jehovah, was the Firstborn and then became the Creator. He will also be the Finisher. Thus, He is Alpha (First) and Omega (Last).
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ParkerD
Guest
Campeador,
No doubt you are familiar that Jesus taught in parables because for one reason, He didn’t want the people to get more knowledge than they could live by. In other words, He was teaching them to lift them up at the level they were at, spiritually. He explained this to the apostles, and they asked Him to speak more plainly to them.
The Book of Abraham can be looked at in exactly the same way. You would be familiar with 1 Corinthians 2, and that spiritual knowledge comes differently than intellectual knowledge or the wisdom of the world.
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