LDS: Did God 'create' Jesus?

[ParkerD]

But this doesn’t match with The Family a Proclamation to the world, or all the explanations given for the “Jesus and Satan are brothers” thing. Then there all of those LDS I’ve read who find it so inspiring that Jesus is their older brother or tell me we are “literal offspring” of Heavenly Parents. How can Jesus be the only begotten if these same parents begat all the spirit children that have ever lived and those still waiting for their chance at mortality.

Trying to stuff a Catholic understanding of “Only Begotten Son” into LDS “theology” looks about as correct as spandex on a person who should not be wearing it.

Zaffiroborant and BartBurk,

One of the fascinating things about the Family a Proclamation to the World is to consider what it does say, in specific words, as compared with what it does not say. It does not use the words “literal offspring”. I think each word in that Proclamation was carefully considered, and reflects a united voice declaration. So there is room for backing away from the idea of “literal offspring”.

As far as the concept of the Only Begotten Son in pre-mortal life, I haven’t come across LDS passages by prophets or apostles where this has been addressed specifically, so I guess that will be something on my mind as I do further reading about that in the future. I think it raises a very important point.

Since the words “only begotten son” and “only son” are used (in translation, of course) in connection with the similitude example of Abraham and Isaac, perhaps there is a relationship that is being conveyed by those words that can be gleaned from that example, since Abraham also had Ishmael as a son, though not the birthright son of Sarah.

Also, the words “in the bosom of the Father” convey a uniqueness that would tie to the words “Only Begotten Son”.

Otherwise, I don’t have an answer from reading I’ve done to the recent-most questions you and BartBurk raised, and I agree that they are “fair questions”.

 

[BartBurk]

This is the relevant sentence from the Proclamation on the Family:

All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny.

Catholics don’t believe that humans have a divine nature. The nature of God is completely different from our nature. The only way we can become partakers of the divine nature is through acceptance of Christ as Savior and participation in the sacraments. As Catholics when we participate in the sacrament of the Eucharist we believe we are literally partaking of the divine nature. We might share in some way in the divine nature and in some way become gods, but there is no thought that we might become fully God as LDS teach. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are uncreated and are the only persons with a divine nature. There may be some Catholics here who can correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[ParkerD]

This is the relevant sentence from the Proclamation on the Family:
Quote:
All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny.

Catholics don’t believe that humans have a divine nature. The nature of God is completely different from our nature. The only way we can become partakers of the divine nature is through acceptance of Christ as Savior and participation in the sacraments. As Catholics when we participate in the sacrament of the Eucharist we believe we are literally partaking of the divine nature. We might share in some way in the divine nature and in some way become gods, but there is no thought that we might become fully God as LDS teach. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are uncreated and are the only persons with a divine nature. There may be some Catholics here who can correct me if I’m wrong.

BartBurk,
I suppose that LDS take more literally the words of Peter as recorded in 2 Peter 1:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

As I had stated before in an entry, I believe that God the Father is completely omnipotent, even to the extent of fulfilling the promises regarding gaining a joint throne with Christ and thus becoming joint heirs with Him. I think that is possible for Him to do, even though it boggles the human mind.

I would say that in the above sentence from the Proclamation, “destiny” is regarding a potential as opposed to a guarantee, and the desire being communicated is that people reach upward toward that potential, which everyone has.

 

[SteveVH]

BartBurk,
I suppose that LDS take more literally the words of Peter as recorded in 2 Peter 1:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

As I had stated before in an entry, I believe that God the Father is completely omnipotent, even to the extent of fulfilling the promises regarding gaining a joint throne with Christ and thus becoming joint heirs with Him. I think that is possible for Him to do, even though it boggles the human mind.

I would say that in the above sentence from the Proclamation, “destiny” is regarding a potential as opposed to a guarantee, and the desire being communicated is that people reach upward toward that potential, which everyone has.

Do you understand the very basic principal that it is only through Christ that we enter into heaven? This has nothing to do with our “potential” and everything to do with the gratuitous grace of a loving God. We do not attain heaven through any merit of our own. We are fallen creatures in need of a Savior and it is only when we realize our brokenness, our weakness, our inability to avoid sin, and surrender our lives to Him completely, that we will be saved. One thing I find lacking in Mormon thought is true humility through recognizing who we really are in comparison to God our Creator.

 

[BartBurk]

BartBurk,
I suppose that LDS take more literally the words of Peter as recorded in 2 Peter 1:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

As I had stated before in an entry, I believe that God the Father is completely omnipotent, even to the extent of fulfilling the promises regarding gaining a joint throne with Christ and thus becoming joint heirs with Him. I think that is possible for Him to do, even though it boggles the human mind.

I would say that in the above sentence from the Proclamation, “destiny” is regarding a potential as opposed to a guarantee, and the desire being communicated is that people reach upward toward that potential, which everyone has.

Catholics take it literally as well. When we take the Eucharist we are literally partaking of the divine nature since the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ. We aren’t going to partake of the divine nature only in the next life – we are doing it right now. And of course Catholics believe we will become joint heirs with Christ as well, but that does not mean we become God in the same sense that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God.

 

[SteveVH]

Catholics take it literally as well. When we take the Eucharist we are literally partaking of the divine nature since the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ. We aren’t going to partake of the divine nature only in the next life – we are doing it right now.

Great point!

 

[ParkerD]

Do you understand the very basic principal that it is only through Christ that we enter into heaven? This has nothing to do with our “potential” and everything to do with the gratuitous grace of a loving God. We do not attain heaven through any merit of our own. We are fallen creatures in need of a Savior and it is only when we realize our brokenness, our weakness, our inability to avoid sin, and surrender our lives to Him completely, that we will be saved. One thing I find lacking in Mormon thought is true humility through recognizing who we really are in comparison to God our Creator.

SteveVH,
Of course I understand that it is through Christ that we enter into heaven. If a person reads the Book of Mormon at all, they will understand this teaching all the more clearly since it is so clearly taught by all the Book of Mormon prophets.

What the Book of Mormon also shows is that as a person draws closer to God, through prayer and through desiring what is right, they experience a change in their own nature and they look up and are lifted up and gain revelation that guides their decisions and actions.

All the “brokenness” and “weakness” from having been the “natural man” loses its impact as one is drawn upward through sanctification and the grace the Savior offers in this life as well as in the next. So indeed, the LDS emphasis is more on “looking up” and “becoming sanctified” than emphasizing “how sinful we are”. I think that leads to a profound potential for change, and I have heard and seen how that does indeed make a dramatic, life-changing impact in people’s lives. It is not a shadow of reality–it is reality.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,
Of course I understand that it is through Christ that we enter into heaven. If a person reads the Book of Mormon at all, they will understand this teaching all the more clearly since it is so clearly taught by all the Book of Mormon prophets.

A person reading the BoM should also come away believing in the Trinity, but that doesn’t seem to stop modern day Mormons from believing something else entirely.

What the Book of Mormon also shows is that as a person draws closer to God, through prayer and through desiring what is right, they experience a change in their own nature and they look up and are lifted up and gain revelation that guides their decisions and actions.

We experience an interior change (conversion) when we realize the undeserved, unfathomable love of God toward His sinful creatures. We can only grasp this if we have a grasp of our sinfulness and God’s goodness. It is all about Him, not us.

So indeed, the LDS emphasis is more on “looking up” and “becoming sanctified” than emphasizing “how sinful we are”. I think that leads to a profound potential for change, and I have heard and seen how that does indeed make a dramatic, life-changing impact in people’s lives. It is not a shadow of reality–it is reality.

This reminds me of an old Saturday Night Live skit called “Daily Affirmations” in which Stewart Smally looks into the mirror and says: “I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and doggonit people like me”. The emphasis is placed upon the person progressing to a divine state, rather than upon the graciousness and goodness of our God who saves us.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

BartBurk,From my view (not yours, clearly, but from mine), it means ultimately that God the Father is not viewed as omnipotent that He could have such a Son who could learn by being instructed and by observation. So we just have extremely different points of view.

Your conclusion makes no sense. It appears that you saying that if God (in the three Persons of Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is eternal (without beginning or end) and unchanging, then God cannot be omnipotent? Why must that follow? I don’t follow the logic here?
Parker:

From my point of view also, Jesus is all the more admirable and awe-inspiring that He would truly descend from His throne divine, attained through His perfection and perfect observation as well as assimilating instruction, to provide us a perfect example here on earth and to provide us redemption while we learn to be like Him, through our repentance which He never experienced because He never needed it. I am continuously in awe of Him, of His unselfishness and His love, and of His quality of belief in us–that “we can do this, and He will help us!”

Wow. In all charity, I completely disagree with your assumption about what Christ is saying to us by taking on our humanity. In essence, God is saying you cannot do this on your own, so I will do it for you, not because of anything you have done, but because I love you.

Does Mormonism really see it the way you described. Because that sounds a lot like the heresy of Pelagiansim. The main tenents of the heresy can be described as follows:

1.Even if Adam had not sinned, he would have died.
2.Adam’s sin harmed only himself, not the human race.
3.Children just born are in the same state as Adam before his fall.
4.The whole human race neither dies through Adam’s sin or death, nor rises again through the resurrection of Christ.
5.The (Mosaic Law) is as good a guide to heaven as the Gospel.
6.Even before the advent of Christ there were men who were without sin.

How many of these theses would you agree with as a Mormon? I’m guessing at least Nos. 2, 3, and 4. Read the whole discussion here.

Peace,
Robert

 

[ParkerD]

A person reading the BoM should also come away believing in the Trinity, but that doesn’t seem to stop modern day Mormons from believing something else entirely.

SteveVH,
That’s quite a funny comment. The Trinity is not a Biblical term nor a Book of Mormon term. I think you don’t really want to “go there” (It has been discussed many times).

We experience an interior change (conversion) when we realize the undeserved, unfathomable love of God toward His sinful creatures. We can only grasp this if we have a grasp of our sinfulness and God’s goodness. It is all about Him, not us.

OK–then God expects us to do something about our “sinfulness”, repent, grow, change, and “sin no more.” (That is putting a necessary “do something” on us, so it is about us.)

This reminds me of an old Saturday Night Live skit called “Daily Affirmations” in which Stewart Smally looks into the mirror and says: “I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and doggonit people like me”. The emphasis is placed upon the person progressing to a divine state, rather than upon the graciousness and goodness of our God who saves us.

Yes, indeed there is a difference, and yes indeed there is an aspect of “positive psychology” that just happens to coincide with “look up”. It is far deeper than a “positive affirmation.” It is realizing that God believes we can change, and that Christ promises to help us do it if we “give Him our hearts” and don’t hold back by not exerting the necessary faith in Him. (In other words, it requires faith in Him, but also faith that through Him we can make those positive changes in our lives–so it is a bonded faith–Him and us building together–building a new “us”.)

The emphasis is placed on an interaction between the person and Christ, and the involvement of the Holy Ghost in a true sanctification process that is step by step, not “all at once” or “one and done”. Christ lifts, builds, strengthens, and that strength is felt by the individual person and that is what they tell about when they say their life has been changed by Christ.

 

[ParkerD]

Your conclusion makes no sense. It appears that you saying that if God (in the three Persons of Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is eternal (without beginning or end) and unchanging, then God cannot be omnipotent? Why must that follow? I don’t follow the logic here?

Peace to you also, Robert,

I was trying to convey that it doesn’t make God the Father “less” to say that He could have such a Son as Jesus, and that Jesus could learn by observation and being instructed by His Father. That is possible for an omnipotent Father to do with a Son, and for the Son to gain omnipotence through that. Omnipotence means God can do anything–no bounds, no limits. (So I wasn’t qualifying the belief about “unchanging”–I was saying that doesn’t have to be the only possible belief that anyone can have. I was saying “omnipotence” doesn’t limit God to a certain set of beliefs about Him or about His Son.)

Wow. In all charity, I completely disagree with your assumption about what Christ is saying to us by taking on our humanity. In essence, God is saying you cannot do this on your own, so I will do it for you, not because of anything you have done, but because I love you.

If you thought I was saying we can “do this on our own”, then you misunderstood significantly.

3.Children just born are in the same state as Adam before his fall.

How many of these theses would you agree with as a Mormon?

I would only agree with 3, but that is because of Christ’s atonement, so the only way it is a true statement is because Christ did indeed come to earth and suffer the infinite atonement for all humankind, including for little children.

Peace to all, and Happy Thanksgiving–a wonderful time of the year.

 

[BartBurk]

I would only agree with 3, but that is because of Christ’s atonement, so the only way it is a true statement is because Christ did indeed come to earth and suffer the infinite atonement for all humankind, including for little children.

This to me is a strength of LDS understanding of original sin. The LDS do not deny that original sin is real, but with regards to little children (and the rest of us) they believe Christ took care of it for them without the need for baptism to clean it up. Baptism then simply becomes the way one enters God’s kingdom for those who have not had personal sin – for adults it is needed to clean up their own sins. That would not invalidate the blessings that infants can gain from being baptized as little children, but it would certainly have a different meaning than it does for us now. There is no reason little children should be denied entrance into God’s church through baptism.

 

[Miriam1947]

Peace to you also, Robert,

I was trying to convey that it doesn’t make God the Father “less” to say that He could have such a Son as Jesus, and that Jesus could learn by observation and being instructed by His Father. That is possible for an omnipotent Father to do with a Son, and for the Son to gain omnipotence through that. Omnipotence means God can do anything–no bounds, no limits. (So I wasn’t qualifying the belief about “unchanging”–I was saying that doesn’t have to be the only possible belief that anyone can have. I was saying “omnipotence” doesn’t limit God to a certain set of beliefs about Him or about His Son.)

Jesus didn’t have to learn anything by observation.

The big difference here is I believe that the Son doesn’t gain omnipotence because he has always had it. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirt, the Trinity. Three persons, one God. Always and forever.

 

[ProVobis]

In the Creed it is

Et homo factus est

compare with the earlier

*factorem coeli et terrae *

was translated as “Maker of heaven and earth” which is sort of lame (because today it’s the entire universe plus heaven) but at least it’s capitalized.

factorem is formed from facio, facere, feci, factus, meaning “do, make, etc.” (These aren’t necessarily the only possible meanings. Could very well be that the 2010 English doesn’t have the perfect word.)

So *Et homo factus est * in the sense given above would be “And He was made Man”.

“And He was created Man” would be a consistent translation if you were to say “God was the Creator of heaven and earth.”

It’s all a matter of English semantics. Translations aren’t infallible.

 

[ParkerD]

Jesus didn’t have to learn anything by observation.

Hi, Miriam,
Happy Thanksgiving to you.

I approach this forum with assumptions about people’s knowledge of the Bible, such as the following verse from Luke:

Luke 2: 52
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

This was on earth, growing from childhood, but it does indicate an “increase” in wisdom. Surely it is not so disagreeable to think that Jesus was able to learn by observation and by learning from His Father in Heaven as He “increased in wisdom”.

Peace to you and all.

 

[Javl]

Hi, Miriam,
Happy Thanksgiving to you.

I approach this forum with assumptions about people’s knowledge of the Bible, such as the following verse from Luke:

Luke 2: 52
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

This was on earth, growing from childhood, but it does indicate an “increase” in wisdom. Surely it is not so disagreeable to think that Jesus was able to learn by observation and by learning from His Father in Heaven as He “increased in wisdom”.

Peace to you and all.

Hi Parker:

Jesus, in His human nature as a human being, learned as we all have learned. But, as God, He has no need to learn since He is the source of all knowledge.

Happy Thanksgiving to you. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker:

Jesus, in His human nature as a human being, learned as we all have learned. But, as God, He has no need to learn since He is the source of all knowledge.

Happy Thanksgiving to you. Shalom.

Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,
Peace and Happy Thanksgiving to you also.

I hope you understand that I have not written or implied that “as God He had a need to learn”. I am suggesting that as the Firstborn, and as the Only Begotten Son, when He was first a Spirit (long before we were spirits), the precedent that He was later going to “learn as a human being” can be viewed as a precedent for how He “learned as a Spirit Son of God the Father” and thus was the source of all knowledge because He comprehended all things:

D & C 88:6 …he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;
7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made…

17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.

40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.
41 He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.

I just wanted to clarify so that I wouldn’t be misunderstood.
Happy Thanksgiving, all!

 

[Miriam1947]

JAVL,
Peace and Happy Thanksgiving to you also.

I am suggesting that as the Firstborn, and as the Only Begotten Son, when He was first a Spirit (long before we were spirits), the precedent that He was later going to “learn as a human being” can be viewed as a precedent for how He “learned as a Spirit Son of God the Father” and thus was the source of all knowledge because He comprehended all things:

Do you see the problem there? Christ is God. He wasn’t first a spirit. Christ did not need to learn how to be God.

What is the spirit belief? Are we before birth somehow floating in the ether? I really don’t understand that. This is not meant in any way to be disrespectful, it is an honest question.

I have never read your book D & C so I fail to understand why a quote from it would be convincing. I don’t believe in new prophets. I find the history of the beginning Mormonism to be unconvincing. It is a book written by a man. It is not the Church nor is it the Bible.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

 

[ParkerD]

Do you see the problem there? Christ is God. He wasn’t first a spirit. Christ did not need to learn how to be God.

What is the spirit belief? Are we before birth somehow floating in the ether? I really don’t understand that. This is not meant in any way to be disrespectful, it is an honest question.

…
Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

Miriam,

Maybe you aren’t familiar with the war in heaven that occurred among the spirits (spirit “angels”). It was known to have happened and resulted in the “fallen angels”, as described by John, by Jude, by other prophets, and of course by Christ.

Revelation 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

John 8: 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 16: 27-28
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

So it is important to understand that Jesus was a Spirit before He was born into this world as the baby Jesus. He wasn’t “floating in the ether”. He was with God the Father. He “came forth from the Father” because He had been with Him before He came to earth. He was with Him as a Spirit, as God the Son.

 

[Miriam1947]

Miriam,

Maybe you aren’t familiar with the war in heaven that occurred among the spirits (spirit “angels”). It was known to have happened and resulted in the “fallen angels”, as described by John, by Jude, by other prophets, and of course by Christ.

Revelation 12: 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

John 8: 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 16: 27-28
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

So it is important to understand that Jesus was a Spirit before He was born into this world as the baby Jesus. He wasn’t “floating in the ether”. He was with God the Father. He “came forth from the Father” because He had been with Him before He came to earth. He was with Him as a Spirit, as God the Son.

What do the angels have to do with this?

John 8: 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

This quote is actually Jesus saying I AM. The I AM is God.