LDS: Did God 'create' Jesus?

[ParkerD]

What do the angels have to do with this?

This quote is actually Jesus saying I AM. The I AM is God.

Miriam,
Correct that I AM is Jehovah. Jehovah is Jesus Christ, who is the Only Begotten Son, a Separate Person who was with God the Father and “came out from God” or in other words, “came forth from the Father.”

Angels lived in the presence of God. They didn’t have bodies. That means they were spirits.

 

[BartBurk]

JAVL,
Peace and Happy Thanksgiving to you also.

I hope you understand that I have not written or implied that “as God He had a need to learn”. I am suggesting that as the Firstborn, and as the Only Begotten Son, when He was first a Spirit (long before we were spirits), the precedent that He was later going to “learn as a human being” can be viewed as a precedent for how He “learned as a Spirit Son of God the Father” and thus was the source of all knowledge because He comprehended all things:

D & C 88:6 …he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth;
7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made…

17 And the redemption of the soul is through him that quickeneth all things, in whose bosom it is decreed that the poor and the meek of the earth shall inherit it.

40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.
41 He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.

I just wanted to clarify so that I wouldn’t be misunderstood.
Happy Thanksgiving, all!

I catch it. From an LDS point of view Jesus’ existence as a human began when He was organized as a Spirit in the pre-existence as he prepared to receive an earthly body. But would you be willing to say Christ was fully God before His human spirit body was provided to Him in the pre-existence? That is the only way I can see how you can even approach an orthodox understanding of Only Begotten Son.

 

[Miriam1947]

Miriam,
Correct that I AM is Jehovah. Jehovah is Jesus Christ, who is the Only Begotten Son, a Separate Person who was with God the Father and “came out from God” or in other words, “came forth from the Father.”

Angels lived in the presence of God. They didn’t have bodies. That means they were spirits.

An angel is pure spirit and, as such, has no shape. A body is a material thing; while material things change and die, pure spiritual beings do not. But for the purpose of interacting with us, an angel may at times assume a shape in order to fulfill the purpose God intends for the angel to accomplish.

Angels are pure intellects that do not have physical forms and do not reproduce sexually. Indeed, angels do not reproduce at all; God created each of them out of nothing at the dawn of creation. They are numerous, immaterial, and immortal, so they don’t need to reproduce. (from This Rock: Quick Questions)

The World’s Toughest Catholic Quiz

Question 6. The doctrine of the Trinity means

*a. There is one God who manifests himself in the three distinct roles of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. ***This sounds like the Mormon answer.
**
b. Since the Resurrection there have been four persons in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus Christ the God-Man.

c. In the Godhead there is only one divine person, and he takes on different.aspects according to his actions as Creator, Redeemer, or Sanctifier.

d. There are three Gods who work so closely together that it is proper to call them one God. Or is this the Mormon answer.

e. None of the above.

a. Wrong, because this is the heresy of Modalism, which says that there is one Person in the Godhead and that Person, so to speak, wears different “masks” according to his different activities.

b. Wrong. This is another nonsense answer. The very word Trinity comes from the prefix for three (“tri”), so you should have seen right away that the Trinity could not be composed of four Persons.

c. Wrong, because this is just a rephrasing, in “gender neutral language,” of 6a.

d. Wrong, because Christians are monotheists and believe in one God, not three. No matter how closely together three gods work, they remain three gods, not one.

e. Correct, because all the other possible answers are wrong.

 

[ParkerD]

I catch it. From an LDS point of view Jesus’ existence as a human began when He was organized as a Spirit in the pre-existence as he prepared to receive an earthly body. But would you be willing to say Christ was fully God before His human spirit body was provided to Him in the pre-existence? That is the only way I can see how you can even approach an orthodox understanding of Only Begotten Son.

BartBurk,
It is important to understand that Jesus was fully God when He was a Spirit, in the pre-mortal life, when He created (organized from unorganized matter and energy) our known universe and our earth and other earths.

As far as before He was a Spirit, before He was the Only Begotten Son, when He was an intelligence and as such was by an infinite magnitude of difference, the Greatest of all intelligences, perhaps He learned by observation as an intelligence and thus could have been “fully God” when He was Begotten by God the Father and became the Firstborn. I don’t know the answer to the order of those events, but it seems sufficient for us to understand that as far as our relationship to Him, from our eternal perspective when we began to be spirits (and now) He has always been God the Son, fully God, and came to earth as Immanuel, God with us.

 

[Miriam1947]

BartBurk,
It is important to understand that Jesus was fully God when He was a Spirit, in the pre-mortal life, when He created (organized from unorganized matter and energy) our known universe and our earth and other earths.

As far as before He was a Spirit, before He was the Only Begotten Son, when He was an intelligence and as such was by an infinite magnitude of difference, the Greatest of all intelligences, perhaps He learned by observation as an intelligence and thus could have been “fully God” when He was Begotten by God the Father and became the Firstborn. I don’t know the answer to the order of those events, but it seems sufficient for us to understand that as far as our relationship to Him, from our eternal perspective when we began to be spirits (and now) He has always been God the Son, fully God, and came to earth as Immanuel, God with us.

Was Jesus created by God?

Colossians 1:15 (also Rom 8:29)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Luke 9:35 (also Mt 3:17)

A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”

Hebrews 1:5-6

For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

John 3:16 (NKJV)

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Some of these passages are better understood when taken in context, for then it’s clear they’re not saying that God created Jesus. Hebrews 1:5-6 should be seen in the light of verses 2-3:

[God] has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.
Jesus is the exact representation of God because he is God and has always existed. Therefore “firstborn” doesn’t mean Jesus was created, but is a way of referring to his pre-eminent position (which would be readily understood in a culture where firstborn children had greater privileges).

Similarly, while Colossians 1:15 refers to Jesus as “the firstborn over all creation,” verses 15-17 read:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

If Jesus created all things and is before all things, obviously he was not created himself.
While Jesus often refers to himself, and is referred to by God, as the Son, this is an indication of Jesus’ position in the Trinity. It’s not necessary to read it as saying God created Jesus, and in fact such a reading contradicts passage such as John 1:1-3 and 10:30-33.

Why then does God describe him as the Son? Perhaps God chose to use a father-son relationship to explain his relationship with Jesus since it’s the closest-fitting human relationship. Sons are subordinate to their fathers, as Jesus was subordinate to the Father while he was on Earth and submitted to his will. Yet a father-son relationship is a close relationship, both biologically and emotionally. The Father and the Son love each other, and are in fact the same God.

Total cut and paste from here:

rationalchristianity.net/jesus_created.html

 

[ParkerD]

…

Similarly, while Colossians 1:15 refers to Jesus as “the firstborn over all creation,” verses 15-17 read:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

If Jesus created all things and is before all things, obviously he was not created himself…

Miriam,
I hope you have understood that the LDS believe that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, and thus in Catholic terminology as has been stated, was not created. He was begotten.

He is a Separate Person from God the Father. They are One because they have the same will and a unity that seems to be hard for Catholic writers to understand, but it is what Christ described in His great Intercessory prayer.

 

[BartBurk]

Miriam,
I hope you have understood that the LDS believe that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, and thus in Catholic terminology as has been stated, was not created. He was begotten.

He is a Separate Person from God the Father. They are One because they have the same will and a unity that seems to be hard for Catholic writers to understand, but it is what Christ described in His great Intercessory prayer.

There is nothing that Catholics misunderstand about the unity of the Father and the Son. It’s the LDS who deny their unity by calling them separate Beings. I hardly ever see an LDS person say they are separate persons except when they are on this forum.

 

[Miriam1947]

Miriam,
I hope you have understood that the LDS believe that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, and thus in Catholic terminology as has been stated, was not created. He was begotten.

He is a Separate Person from God the Father. They are One because they have the same will and a unity that seems to be hard for Catholic writers to understand, but it is what Christ described in His great Intercessory prayer.

a. There is one God who manifests himself in the three distinct roles of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This sounds like the Mormon answer.

b. There are three Gods who work so closely together that it is proper to call them one God. Or is this the Mormon answer.

Is it a or b?

a.This is the heresy of Modalism, which says that there is one Person in the Godhead and that Person, so to speak, wears different “masks” according to his different activities.

b. Christians are monotheists and believe in one God, not three. No matter how closely together three gods work, they remain three gods, not one.

Because you keep saying begotten. I think you are actually saying created.

 

[SteveVH]

BartBurk,
It is important to understand that Jesus was fully God when He was a Spirit, in the pre-mortal life, when He created (organized from unorganized matter and energy) our known universe and our earth and other earths.

Parker, may I ask who created the “unorganized matter and energy”?

Thanks.

 

[Miriam1947]

Parker if you rely on the Book of Mormon you might want to view this.

youtube.com/watch?v=dTtq62XQ4jw

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

You are sounding more and more like a Catholic…

Come…come to the banquet table… of the Lord.

 

[ParkerD]

There is nothing that Catholics misunderstand about the unity of the Father and the Son. It’s the LDS who deny their unity by calling them separate Beings. I hardly ever see an LDS person say they are separate persons except when they are on this forum.

BartBurk,
So that would mean that there is no concept within the Catholic mindset of the possibility of unity among people, among nations, or during the Millenium?

If Catholics define “unity” as “one being”, then that is a Catholic definition that is neither shared by the dictionary nor shared by the Bible.

The reason I use the term “Separate Persons” is to remind whomever I am conversing with that that is a shared belief in words, even though the words mean something different for Catholics than for LDS.

The LDS completely understand that the Father and the Son are distinct and separate, but One in divine will, in omniscience and omnipotence and purpose.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, may I ask who created the “unorganized matter and energy”?

Thanks.

SteveVH,

Have you heard of the law of physics that “matter or energy cannot be created or destroyed”? The LDS don’t believe God superimposed His will upon that law of physics. There is such a thing as “unorganized matter”.

(There is also within science something called “dark matter” which cannot be detected by scientific instruments other than mathematically knowing that it is there in order for physics equations to work and be in balance.)

 

[ParkerD]

Parker if you rely on the Book of Mormon you might want to view this.

Hi, Miriam,
I hope you have had a lovely Thanksgiving Day, surrounded by loved ones.

I watched the first part of the video for the purpose of advising you about it.

I look at the eyes of people who are in videos or on TV or in movies, since the eyes tell much about the person. I learn as much from eyes as from the words spoken. Trustworthiness can be seen (or not) in the eyes, and the light of Christ also, as He taught. “The light of the body is the eye.”

“The eyes are the window to the soul.” I think that is a good concept to be guided by.

As far as misstatements from that video, I would challenge you or anyone to have a go at really finding doctrinal discrepancies between the KJV Bible and the Book of Mormon. Those who participated in the video clearly were not either Bible scholars nor Book of Mormon scholars, or they would not have said what they said–the two have reinforcing strength in teaching the same truths from God.

The Jaredites didn’t fight their last battles near the Hill Cumorah. They fought their last battles near the hill Shim (Mormon 1:3).

The Lamanites weren’t cursed with a dark skin–they were cursed with the loss of the Holy Spirit because they rebelled against listening to or following the Holy Spirit. A thorough student of the Book of Mormon can find that distinction in the text.

The Jerusalem world was surrounded by the outside world, and thus there were known places that formed frames of reference for the text familiar from the Bible, even though some places described in the Bible are not known for sure as to their specific location today. The Book of Mormon is a totally different situation. Anyone who says “no one lived in the Americas before Christ was born in Bethlehem” has not studied ancient American archeology at all. The Book of Mormon describes a small group of people among many others, just as the house of Israel in the Old World were a small group of people among many others.

One who lives their life drawing from the spiritual truths communicated in both the Bible and the Book of Mormon as hand-in-hand teachings about the Savior and Redeemer of the whole world, will gain much in the way of perspective and strengthened understanding about the love of Jesus Christ for all humankind.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Miriam,
I hope you have understood that the LDS believe that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God, and thus in Catholic terminology as has been stated, was not created. He was begotten.

But in what way is He the Only Begotten Son?

 

[zerinus]

Parker, may I ask who created the “unorganized matter and energy”?

Thanks.

We believe there is something out there which was not created, out of which God created the universe. The precise nature of that “something” is not known at the moment; you can call base element or material or whatever. But we don’t believe that God made everything out of nothing. That is the main point. What that something is has not been clearly revealed.

 

[Javl]

Jesus, the Son, and the Holy Spirit have existed with the Father before all time. They have no beginning and no end. Jesus WAS NOT MADE. All this is evident and explained in both the old Jewish scriptures ( Old Testament ) and the New Christian Scriptures ( New Testament ) all of which is the inerreant word of God.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

We believe there is something out there which was not created, out of which God created the universe. The precise nature of that “something” is not known at the moment; you can call base element or material or whatever. But we don’t believe that God made everything out of nothing. That is the main point. What that something is has not been clearly revealed.

Your statement and understanding as you have so stated puts you in the category of belief that God is limited in His power and capabilities. We main line Christians believe that God is not limited in anything and as God He can make something to “exist out of nothing” God is omnipotent, Nothing is impossible with and to Him. The trouble is that we humans always put and give Him human characteristics and capabilities. God exists outside and beyond space and time. Please keep that in mind always. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

JAVL,
I would say that the LDS as compared with your beliefs have a profoundly different view of how “omnipotence” is used by God for the blessing of His children (including all of us).

As I had posted before in this thread, “omnipotent” means “all powerful” with no limitations whatsoever.

“Omniscient” means “all knowing” with no limitations whatsoever, including no limitations of time or space.

God is all powerful and all knowing. This means He knew, for example, that Satan was going to rebel before that happened.

If a person concludes that God is omnipotent, omniscient, started the universe from nothing, and was the First Cause of all creation, then that logically means that God created Satan giving Satan the exact attributes that would logically lead to his (Satan’s) rebellion.

If a person moves along that logic path, then that would mean God was the First Cause of that particular effect and all the subsequent effects (because He is all-knowing about those subsequent effects). It means He didn’t cause the subsequent effects, but that by knowing they were going to happen and by having created the angel who fell through the choices that angel made but had the attributes given to that angel by God through creation, God placed into effect the circumstance that brought Satan into being and thus enabled the subsequent effects to happen. (In other words, leaving Satan out of creation would lead to no rebellion by such an angel. But leaving Satan in, eventuates the situation wherein Satan rebelled by the choice he made because he had the precise qualities he had.)

(I think a computer programmer can understand what I am trying to explain in words, but perhaps few others can.)

By that same logic path, effects that are less than desirable by the creations of God, such as poor (sinful) choices made by human beings, were not only fore-known by Him, but were placed into effect by His creation since He was omnipotent and omniscient at the point in time of the Creation and gave them the precise attributes they (we) have.

But I’m not saying that is how things are. I am saying that is how things aren’t–that God has not worked in the universe in that way.

God created the universe without defying the law He ordained, that matter or energy (in either form) would not be created or destroyed. He also brought spirits into existence from intelligences that already existed, then allowed those spirits to choose what they would do and whom they would follow.

That opportunity of choice continues in this life. It is a wonderful blessing, made infinitely more of a blessing through the atoning grace of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Computer programmer here.

Your logic is leaving out free will.

God created us to love Him, but He does not force this love, for what sort of love is forced?

Satan had free will, and saying that this gift was God “enabling” evil, is a very skewed view of reality.