LDS: Did God 'create' Jesus?

[SteveVH]

JAVL,
I would say that the LDS as compared with your beliefs have a profoundly different view of how “omnipotence” is used by God for the blessing of His children (including all of us).

As I had posted before in this thread, “omnipotent” means “all powerful” with no limitations whatsoever.

“Omniscient” means “all knowing” with no limitations whatsoever, including no limitations of time or space.

God is all powerful and all knowing. This means He knew, for example, that Satan was going to rebel before that happened.

If a person concludes that God is omnipotent, omniscient, started the universe from nothing, and was the First Cause of all creation, then that logically means that God created Satan giving Satan the exact attributes that would logically lead to his (Satan’s) rebellion.

If a person moves along that logic path, then that would mean God was the First Cause of that particular effect and all the subsequent effects (because He is all-knowing about those subsequent effects). It means He didn’t cause the subsequent effects, but that by knowing they were going to happen and by having created the angel who fell through the choices that angel made but had the attributes given to that angel by God through creation, God placed into effect the circumstance that brought Satan into being and thus enabled the subsequent effects to happen. (In other words, leaving Satan out of creation would lead to no rebellion by such an angel. But leaving Satan in, eventuates the situation wherein Satan rebelled by the choice he made because he had the precise qualities he had.)

(I think a computer programmer can understand what I am trying to explain in words, but perhaps few others can.)

By that same logic path, effects that are less than desirable by the creations of God, such as poor (sinful) choices made by human beings, were not only fore-known by Him, but were placed into effect by His creation since He was omnipotent and omniscient at the point in time of the Creation and gave them the precise attributes they (we) have.

But I’m not saying that is how things are. I am saying that is how things aren’t–that God has not worked in the universe in that way.

God created the universe without defying the law He ordained, that matter or energy (in either form) would not be created or destroyed. He also brought spirits into existence from intelligences that already existed, then allowed those spirits to choose what they would do and whom they would follow.

That opportunity of choice continues in this life. It is a wonderful blessing, made infinitely more of a blessing through the atoning grace of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Parker, there is something very basic, very fundamental, that is missing in your logic. That something is free will. You are implying that the Christian belief in a God who is the first cause of all things necessarily means that He is, therefore, responsible for evil.

Goodness cannot exist unless it is chosen. A robot may be functional, may carry out all the duties for which it is programmed, but it is not morally good. It has no choice but to do what it was made to do.

When God created the angels, he also gave them free will. Yes, God knew that the gift of free will would create the possibility that those beings in possession of free will might choose evil over good. More than just a possibility, He knew that some, angels and humans, would choose evil. However, since goodness can only exist if one has the choice to choose otherwise, it was worth it and God had a plan to overcome the evil. That is the drama of salvation history.

Satan was created by God, as an angel of light. Satan became, through his own free will, jealous of God, wanting to be his equal. He came to earth and told the same lie to Adam and Eve; “you will be like God”. He told them that God was holding out on them. If they could eat of any tree in the Garden, why couldn’t they eat of this tree as well. What was God holding back? He placed doubt into their hearts. They were already “like God” as they had been created in His image and likeness. But they were led to believe there was more and they wanted more. They wanted to be"like God", but without God. It was they who made the choice, not God.

Evil comes from the hearts of angels and men, not from God.

 

[KathleenGee]

God created all his creatures of intelligence with free will – angels and humans.

Because angels are of spirit and intelligence and could see God, they could decide simultaneously whether to submit to God or rebel against Him as Lucifer and the fallen angels said.

St. Michael said this for all mankind who aspires …‘Who is like unto God!’…no one except God Himself. He extends a sharing in His divinity but not in the qualities where we become as gods having our own rule.

 

[ParkerD]

Computer programmer here.

Your logic is leaving out free will.

God created us to love Him, but He does not force this love, for what sort of love is forced?

Satan had free will, and saying that this gift was God “enabling” evil, is a very skewed view of reality.

RebeccaJ,

Glad you’re a computer programmer. Then you will know that what is programmed is what “comes out”. The computer doesn’t start to “think for itself” independent of how it was programmed.

It seems a logical inconsistency to say that God really and truly “gave free will” and yet He created all things (including Satan) from nothing, meaning He had every possible option of how to create them, for it means that every thought and every action that comes from those created spirits, persons, animals, or things, can be ultimately traced back to its first “source”–the Creator, since the Creator was omniscient when He began Creation.

The Creator is omnipotent and omniscient, thus He knows all things into the future. Logically, it doesn’t follow that all those created entities could be told, “now you have free will” if He gave them their attributes, their personalities, their likes and dislikes, even their degree of love for Him.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

Have you heard of the law of physics that “matter or energy cannot be created or destroyed”? The LDS don’t believe God superimposed His will upon that law of physics. There is such a thing as “unorganized matter”.

(There is also within science something called “dark matter” which cannot be detected by scientific instruments other than mathematically knowing that it is there in order for physics equations to work and be in balance.)

You are speaking of the theories of mankind, not of God. God created all that is, including energy and matter. I would agree that man cannot create or destroy matter or energy, but you better believe that God most certainly can. And yes, He can superimpose His will upon the law of physics since it is His law. What would you call raising someone from the dead? What would you call multiplying the loaves and fishes? What would you call healing a Leper or giving sight to the blind?

A God forced to become subject to his own creation would not be much of a God. You place limits on His power and ability. God has no limits.

 

[campeador]

Rabbi Moses ben-Maimon:
God’s existence is absolute and it includes no composition and we comprehend only the fact that He exists, not His essence. Consequently it is a false assumption to hold that He has any positive attribute… still less has He accidents (מקרה), which could be described by an attribute. Hence it is clear that He has no positive attribute whatever. The negative attributes are necessary to direct the mind to the truths which we must believe… When we say of this being, that it exists, we mean that its non-existence is impossible; it is living — it is not dead; …it is the first — its existence is not due to any cause; it has power, wisdom, and will — it is not feeble or ignorant; He is One — there are not more Gods than one… Every attribute predicated of God denotes either the quality of an action, or, when the attribute is intended to convey some idea of the Divine Being itself — and not of His actions — the negation of the opposite.

Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto:
God’s existence is absolutely simple, without combinations or additions of any kind. All perfections are found in Him in a perfectly simple manner. However, God does not entail separate domains — even though in truth there exist in God qualities which, within us, are separate… Indeed the true nature of His essence is that it is a single attribute, (yet) one that intrinsically encompasses everything that could be considered perfection. All perfection therefore exists in God, not as something added on to His existence, but as an integral part of His intrinsic identity… This is a concept that is very far from our ability to grasp and imagine…

 

[ParkerD]

… What would you call raising someone from the dead?

SteveVH,

If you’re speaking of Lazarus, God certainly has power over death and could restore Lazarus to life, using His knowledge of how all that works. But that wasn’t creating something from nothing.

What would you call multiplying the loaves and fishes?

That could have come from energizing the elements comprising the loaves and the fishes, so that those elements (whether organic or inorganic) multiplied from the energy source that brought about their multiplying. That would be changing forms–from energy to matter, using the knowledge Jesus had to do that.

What would you call healing a Leper or giving sight to the blind?

Healing uses laws God knows about and established, and uses faith which is a power source if used correctly, as Jesus taught it is. Faith in Christ exerts positive energy and can be a source of healing, through Him.

God has no limits.

Yet you and others have placed limits that He could not organize spirits from intelligences and allow them to make choices and grow and progress through those choices and, with Christ’s grace, become like Christ if they choose Him and His healing power. So you are the one placing limits on God, not I.

As far as the topic of “First Cause” creation, I simply do not nor will I ever agree with the logic you presented. See my post to RebeccaJ.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

If you’re speaking of Lazarus, God certainly has power over death and could restore Lazarus to life, using His knowledge of how all that works. But that wasn’t creating something from nothing.

Creating life from death is creating something from nothing. And I don’t only speak of Lazarus, but you and I as well.

That could have come from energizing the elements comprising the loaves and the fishes, so that those elements (whether organic or inorganic) multiplied from the energy source that brought about their multiplying. That would be changing forms–from energy to matter, using the knowledge Jesus had to do that.

So this would be something that man could accomplish, if he just had the knowledge. It has nothing to do with His divine power?

What would you say about God making the sun stand still? Would that be a good enough example of God defying the laws of physics? God is not subject to His creation, including the laws of physics.

Healing uses laws God knows about and established, and uses faith which is a power source if used correctly, as Jesus taught it is. Faith in Christ exerts positive energy and can be a source of healing, through Him.

This is also a “New Age” concept.

Yet you and others have placed limits that He could not organize spirits from intelligences and allow them to make choices and grow and progress through those choices and, with Christ’s grace, become like Christ if they choose Him and His healing power. So you are the one placing limits on God, not I.

So God does not create, He organizes, much like my wife making a cake. He took matter, which came into existence, somehow on its own, and added a little of this and a little of that. Do I understand you correctly?

There is absolutely no logic in the presumption that energy and matter always existed. We know, from human reason and experience, that something does not come from nothing. There is a cause for everything that exists, therefore there must be an uncaused cause, which we call God. That is simple logic, Parker. You are in serious error here and diminish the power and glory of God, making Him into nothing more than a talented organizer.

As far as the topic of “First Cause” creation, I simply do not nor will I ever agree with the logic you presented.

For your sake, I hope not.

 

[Javl]

JAVL,
I would say that the LDS as compared with your beliefs have a profoundly different view of how “omnipotence” is used by God for the blessing of His children (including all of us).

As I had posted before in this thread, “omnipotent” means “all powerful” with no limitations whatsoever.

“Omniscient” means “all knowing” with no limitations whatsoever, including no limitations of time or space.

God is all powerful and all knowing. This means He knew, for example, that Satan was going to rebel before that happened.

If a person concludes that God is omnipotent, omniscient, started the universe from nothing, and was the First Cause of all creation, then that logically means that God created Satan giving Satan the exact attributes that would logically lead to his (Satan’s) rebellion.

If a person moves along that logic path, then that would mean God was the First Cause of that particular effect and all the subsequent effects (because He is all-knowing about those subsequent effects). It means He didn’t cause the subsequent effects, but that by knowing they were going to happen and by having created the angel who fell through the choices that angel made but had the attributes given to that angel by God through creation, God placed into effect the circumstance that brought Satan into being and thus enabled the subsequent effects to happen. (In other words, leaving Satan out of creation would lead to no rebellion by such an angel. But leaving Satan in, eventuates the situation wherein Satan rebelled by the choice he made because he had the precise qualities he had.)

(I think a computer programmer can understand what I am trying to explain in words, but perhaps few others can.)

By that same logic path, effects that are less than desirable by the creations of God, such as poor (sinful) choices made by human beings, were not only fore-known by Him, but were placed into effect by His creation since He was omnipotent and omniscient at the point in time of the Creation and gave them the precise attributes they (we) have.

But I’m not saying that is how things are. I am saying that is how things aren’t–that God has not worked in the universe in that way.

God created the universe without defying the law He ordained, that matter or energy (in either form) would not be created or destroyed. He also brought spirits into existence from intelligences that already existed, then allowed those spirits to choose what they would do and whom they would follow.

That opportunity of choice continues in this life. It is a wonderful blessing, made infinitely more of a blessing through the atoning grace of the Lord, Jesus Christ.

Hi Parker;

I do understand what you have said and are saying. But, again your are putting human traits and characteristics on God. All of God’s actions are according to His will and plan. What these are, we do not know and it is probably none of our business to know. His intellect, compared to ours, is that many time above ours as we are above an amoeba or germ, virus, etc. Try as we may, we are not capable of discovering, let alone understanding, what His plan is. All we can do is just submit to Him, as is His right, and stop trying to figure out His plan for us ( other than what has been revealed ). Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker;

I do understand what you have said and are saying. But, again your are putting human traits and characteristics on God. All of God’s actions are according to His will and plan. What these are, we do not know and it is probably none of our business to know. His intellect, compared to ours, is that many time above ours as we are above an amoeba or germ, virus, etc. Try as we may, we are not capable of discovering, let alone understanding, what His plan is. All we can do is just submit to Him, as is His right, and stop trying to figure out His plan for us ( other than what has been revealed ). Shalom.

Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,
It is not placing “human traits and characteristics on God” to say that the Creator would be totally responsible for His creation, if He started from nothing. Unless you are really saying (and this may be so) that “we do not know” that His plan included bringing intelligences into a capacity wherein they could choose using free will to follow Christ in pre-mortal life, can again choose using free will to follow Christ or not in mortality, and then after that we will receive “what has been revealed.”

But you see, I do understand that plan. It is not “unknowable”. It makes logical sense.

I certainly believe in free will, but where I draw the line is saying that God created Satan from nothing knowing full well that he was going to rebel and influence other spirit angels to rebel, then be sent to this earth to tempt and bring awful choices into the minds of people, yet say that such was brought about without a pre-existing intelligence (the precursor to Satan) who had been given the opportunity to choose with free will, whether to accept the plan of salvation as a good and necessary plan of happiness and progress. That is what the war in heaven was all about–whether the spirits in the presence of God would follow Christ and the Father’s plan, or not.

 

[SteveVH]

JAVL,
I certainly believe in free will, but where I draw the line is saying that God created Satan from nothing knowing full well that he was going to rebel and influence other spirit angels to rebel, then be sent to this earth to tempt and bring awful choices into the minds of people, yet say that such was brought about without a pre-existing intelligence (the precursor to Satan) who had been given the opportunity to choose with free will, whether to accept the plan of salvation as a good and necessary plan of happiness and progress. That is what the war in heaven was all about–whether the spirits in the presence of God would follow Christ and the Father’s plan, or not.

Are you saying that Satan is eternal? That he was not a creation of God? The war was about angels, through their own free will, rebelling. Angels are creatures. To call them “spirit angels” is redundant. All angels are pure spirit, but spirits that were created by God.

“I do not know how you came into being in my womb. It was not I who gave life and breath, nor I who set in order the elements within each of you. Therefore, the Creator of the world, who shaped the beginning of man and devised the origin of all things, will in his mercy give life and breath back to you again, since you now forget yourselves for the sake of his laws… Look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed. Thus also mankind comes into being.” (2 Macc 7:22-23, 28)

Before you discount the Book of 2 Maccabees, please recall that it was included in the Scriptures used by Christ and the Apostles.

 

[zaffiroborant]

That could have come from energizing the elements comprising the loaves and the fishes, so that those elements (whether organic or inorganic) multiplied from the energy source that brought about their multiplying. That would be changing forms–from energy to matter, using the knowledge Jesus had to do that.
SteveVH;7308160:

So this would be something that man could accomplish, if he just had the knowledge. It has nothing to do with His divine power?

I heard someone use a very similar theory to explain how the replicators on the USS Enterprise work.

 

[zaffiroborant]

JAVL,
It is not placing “human traits and characteristics on God” to say that the Creator would be totally responsible for His creation, if He started from nothing. Unless you are really saying (and this may be so) that “we do not know” that His plan included bringing intelligences into a capacity wherein they could choose using free will to follow Christ in pre-mortal life, can again choose using free will to follow Christ or not in mortality, and then after that we will receive “what has been revealed.”

But you see, I do understand that plan. It is not “unknowable”. It makes logical sense.

I certainly believe in free will, but where I draw the line is saying that God created Satan from nothing knowing full well that he was going to rebel and influence other spirit angels to rebel, then be sent to this earth to tempt and bring awful choices into the minds of people, yet say that such was brought about without a pre-existing intelligence (the precursor to Satan) who had been given the opportunity to choose with free will, whether to accept the plan of salvation as a good and necessary plan of happiness and progress. That is what the war in heaven was all about–whether the spirits in the presence of God would follow Christ and the Father’s plan, or not.

So in your understanding God is not omniscient and had no clue which way Satan would go.

 

[ParkerD]

So in your understanding God is not omniscient and had no clue which way Satan would go.

Zaffiroborant,
No, you have misunderstood what I was trying to communicate. I was saying God is totally omniscient, and did know “which way Satan would go.”

I was saying that God did not create Satan out of nothing–that the intelligence which existed and was formed into Satan (a spirit) was not created out of nothing–it already existed.

Thus God does not ultimately have the responsibility for the choice Satan made to rebel, whereas if God had created Satan out of nothing then the Creator would be responsible for His creation and its choices, given that He is omnipotent and omniscient as the Creator.

One follows all of the effects to the “First Cause” if the “First Cause” created all things from nothing and then “turned them loose.”

 

[ParkerD]

Before you discount the Book of 2 Maccabees, please recall that it was included in the Scriptures used by Christ and the Apostles.

SteveVH,
I really haven’t read much about the book(s) of Maccabees. What prophet or prophets received the “revelations” and wrote those books, and for what group of people were they writing, and how did they specifically receive their authority as prophets?

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ,

Glad you’re a computer programmer. Then you will know that what is programmed is what “comes out”. The computer doesn’t start to “think for itself” independent of how it was programmed.

It seems a logical inconsistency to say that God really and truly “gave free will” and yet He created all things (including Satan) from nothing, meaning He had every possible option of how to create them, for it means that every thought and every action that comes from those created spirits, persons, animals, or things, can be ultimately traced back to its first “source”–the Creator, since the Creator was omniscient when He began Creation.

The Creator is omnipotent and omniscient, thus He knows all things into the future. Logically, it doesn’t follow that all those created entities could be told, “now you have free will” if He gave them their attributes, their personalities, their likes and dislikes, even their degree of love for Him.

ParkerD, we are not computers or machines that God programmed. We’re human, not an object. When we make a machine we are not gods. We are the makers of objects, that we use for tools. We are not creators. Our tools reflect the limited beings that we are.

Come into reality, find your humanity in Jesus Christ. You do have a choice to follow Him or continue in your errors. He is Wisdom, not this confusion that you are wrapping yourself in and calling “logic”.

For you, I recommend Peter Kreefts “Fated and Free”, it is available free at his website. You are of course free to listen to it, or not.

peterkreeft.com/audio/29_lotr_fated-free.htm

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,
No, you have misunderstood what I was trying to communicate. I was saying God is totally omniscient, and did know “which way Satan would go.”

I was saying that God did not create Satan out of nothing–that the intelligence which existed and was formed into Satan (a spirit) was not created out of nothing–it already existed.

Thus God does not ultimately have the responsibility for the choice Satan made to rebel, whereas if God had created Satan out of nothing then the Creator would be responsible for His creation and its choices, given that He is omnipotent and omniscient as the Creator.

One follows all of the effects to the “First Cause” if the “First Cause” created all things from nothing and then “turned them loose.”

So if He knew he was a bad seed why did He aide Satan in his progression, why didn’t He just leave him as an intelligence or contain him?

 

[ParkerD]

So if He knew he was a bad seed why did He aide Satan in his progression, why didn’t He just leave him as an intelligence or contain him?

Zaffiroborant,

I had wondered when someone would ask that question–it’s a good question.

Two aspects of this are important. One is that although God has foreknowledge because of being omniscient, He allows choices by spirits and by people even though knowing those choices will often bring unhappiness. He knows that happiness is only possible by having free will choice available, so that is an essential part of the plan of salvation.

The other aspect of that particular situation is that God also knows that opposition is part of what is necessary for the progress of spirits, in order that they come up against difficulty (such as difficult choices) and struggle through it and overcome it–hopefully with Christ’s help if they choose to seek His help, and gain from the experience of overcoming that opposition in their lives.

So this other aspect explains why God would cast Satan out of heaven after his rebellion and yet cast him to the earth rather than to a place where he could have no involvement in trying to tempt people on earth. He was cast to the earth, along with the fallen angels, for the purpose of being allowed to be an opposing force on the earth–which ultimately can increase the resilience and thus a higher level of happiness of those who choose against Satan’s temptations and choose to be followers of Jesus Christ, who leads to love, light, truth, and goodness. To live in a world as human beings with no opposition would be to live in a world with very little growth.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,
I really haven’t read much about the book(s) of Maccabees. What prophet or prophets received the “revelations” and wrote those books, and for what group of people were they writing, and how did they specifically receive their authority as prophets?

The books of Maccabees are not prophetic books, but rather belong to the historical books of the Old Testament, along with 1&2 Samuel, 1&2 Kings, 1&2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith and Esther. The Author is Judas Maccabeus. This book covers the period which many Protestant denominations refer to as the lost 400 years, when they claim that God was silent. The only reason these years are lost, for some, is because they are part of the Septuagint and are not included in the Protestant Bible. They cover the Maccabean revolt, a very important time in Jewish history.

As to its theological importance, the author teaches about the resurrection of the just on the last day, the intercession of saints in heaven for us here on earth and the power of the prayers and sacrifices of the living for the dead. And you thought Catholics invented this stuff.

This book was canonized along with the rest of the books in the Bible and was included until the Reformation when Luther and company, with no authority whatsoever, tossed the deuterocanonical books. Regardless, it remains the word of God just as much as any of the other books of the Bible.

Its a shame, since you wish to distance yourself from Protestantism, that you have accepted the Protestant version of the Bible. The Septuagint was the only version in existence in the time of Christ.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,

I had wondered when someone would ask that question–it’s a good question.

Two aspects of this are important. One is that although God has foreknowledge because of being omniscient, He allows choices by spirits and by people even though knowing those choices will often bring unhappiness. He knows that happiness is only possible by having free will choice available, so that is an essential part of the plan of salvation.

The other aspect of that particular situation is that God also knows that opposition is part of what is necessary for the progress of spirits, in order that they come up against difficulty (such as difficult choices) and struggle through it and overcome it–hopefully with Christ’s help if they choose to seek His help, and gain from the experience of overcoming that opposition in their lives.

So this other aspect explains why God would cast Satan out of heaven after his rebellion and yet cast him to the earth rather than to a place where he could have no involvement in trying to tempt people on earth. He was cast to the earth, along with the fallen angels, for the purpose of being allowed to be an opposing force on the earth–which ultimately can increase the resilience and thus a higher level of happiness of those who choose against Satan’s temptations and choose to be followers of Jesus Christ, who leads to love, light, truth, and goodness. To live in a world as human beings with no opposition would be to live in a world with very little growth.

So evil is a necessity then and God provided it through Satan.

 

[SteveVH]

The other aspect of that particular situation is that God also knows that opposition is part of what is necessary for the progress of spirits, in order that they come up against difficulty (such as difficult choices) and struggle through it and overcome it–hopefully with Christ’s help if they choose to seek His help, and gain from the experience of overcoming that opposition in their lives.

Parker, are you saying that one can “progress” without Christ? You mention Him here almost as an after-thought and your words imply that one can be saved without Him.
Your emphasis is on a person progressing, rather than being saved by Christ. Exactly where do you stand on this?