LDS: Do they consider Catholics christian?

[LivingWaters7]

I think the next logical question would be, if a Christian is defined as being a disciple of Jesus Christ, what does it mean to be a disciple of Jesus Christ?

 

[1ke]

straight out of Acts.

Not exactly. That verse said that the disciples were called Christians for the first time in Antioch. It does not say what is required to BE a disciple and therefore to BE a Christian.

Christ himself said not all those who call themselves his disciples actually are his disciples and that some would be surprised on judgment day.

Catholic teaching and LDS teaching part ways when you get beyond the word Christian and into the requirements of discipleship.

 

[lax16]

Speaking from the Mormon POV here–

Yes, Mormon consider Catholics to be Christian, good people doing their best to follow the Lord. They’re just not Mormon-Christian, having much truth and doing much good, but lacking the fullness of truth.

Still, Mormons consider themselves to be the one true church, and do not accept any baptism from any other church.

.

Mormons believe that Catholics are Christians, meaning followers of Christ, but believe there is no salvation outside of the LDS church.

What happens to faithful Catholics and Protestants when they die then?

 

[mtolympus]

I think the next logical question would be, if a Christian is defined as being a disciple of Jesus Christ, what does it mean to be a disciple of Jesus Christ?

Jesus said, “This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35)

 

[mtolympus]

Not exactly. That verse said that the disciples were called Christians for the first time in Antioch. It does not say what is required to BE a disciple and therefore to BE a Christian.

Christ himself said not all those who call themselves his disciples actually are his disciples and that some would be surprised on judgment day.

Catholic teaching and LDS teaching part ways when you get beyond the word Christian and into the requirements of discipleship.

Jesus said, “This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35)

 

[1ke]

Jesus said, “This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” (John 13:35)

That is not ALL Jesus said. Cherry picking doesn’t work here.

 

[CatholicSheila]

Still, Mormons consider themselves to be the one true church, and do not accept any baptism from any other church.

(This view holds true for other Christian churches as well).

So a valid baptism is not required to be a Christian according to the LDS Church?

I am well aware this holds true for other Churches. A fact that is hard to miss on Catholic Answers and I happen to agree with the Church. I don’t consider the Mormon baptism valid and I don’t consider Mormons Christian (sorry. I wish Mormons were but facts are facts). I have no issue if our baptism is seen as invalid by Mormons or even if Mormons don’t consider Catholics Christian. I’m friends with a Mormon who posts constantly on facebook things about Mormonism and it just striked my curiosity about this issue.

I’m a little confused what exactly you’re asking here.

Today the LDS church claims that Catholics are Christian. Has it always held this view or has this view changed over the years? Has the LDS church always claimed Catholics are Christian? I know others have stated the answer is no, but I am curious as to a Mormons answer.

Is there salvation outside of the LDS Church? If not, why not? Someone has already said no, you don’t. I just did a quick bit of googling and it appears this is true. If there is no salvation without entering the LDS Church, then how can non-Mormons be classed as Christian?

 

[mtolympus]

That is not ALL Jesus said. Cherry picking doesn’t work here.

Yes, Jesus did say a lot of things. If you can find, in the words of Jesus, a better “cherry” that defines His disciples, let me know.

 

[Marie5890]

Mormons believe that Catholics are Christians, meaning followers of Christ, but believe there is no salvation outside of the LDS church.

What happens to faithful Catholics and Protestants when they die then?

LDS theology is such that they will be given a chance to accept the Mormon gospel in the next life, and that is why they do proxy baptism and other ordinances in their temples for those who have died.

So for Mormons, this life isn’t the only chance to accept the Mormon gospel

 

[lax16]

LDS theology is such that they will be given a chance to accept the Mormon gospel in the next life, and that is why they do proxy baptism and other ordinances in their temples for those who have died.

So for Mormons, this life isn’t the only chance to accept the Mormon gospel

I thought they are only supposed to baptize deceased family members?

 

[mtolympus]

I thought they are only supposed to baptize deceased family members?

This is true. The current FamilySearch computer program accepts only names directly linked by your family tree. This was not the case in an earlier program which caused some problems and embarrassment to the LDS Church.

 

[Marie5890]

I thought they are only supposed to baptize deceased family members?

That is the current policy, but has not always been the case.

I believe in the past there was a program called “name extraction” eom.byu.edu/index.php/Name_Extraction_Program

Im not sure how they verify that the names being submitted are actually one’s family members or ancestors. If they even try to verify that.
My guess, they go by the honor system and don’t really check to see if names submitted are related to the person submitting them

 

[zaffiroborant]

That is the current policy, but has not always been the case.

I believe in the past there was a program called “name extraction” eom.byu.edu/index.php/Name_Extraction_Program

Im not sure how they verify that the names being submitted are actually one’s family members or ancestors. If they even try to verify that.
My guess, they go by the honor system and don’t really check to see if names submitted are related to the person submitting them

I agree, I simply don’t believe any effort is made to check and in a way I can understand that. Verifying or asking members to prove they are entitled to submit any given name in a sense implies that the member has behaved questionably and may be lying.

The LDS church has claimed they can’t control their members in this area but I think that’s a load of hooey. If they tracked the member number of the submitter and then punished (cancel temple recommend, probation, excommunication) of those who submit ineligible names the church would have stopped it cold. Had they done this years ago (and they’ve had the capability for years) it would have avoided years of bad PR.

 

[lax16]

This is true. The current FamilySearch computer program accepts only names directly linked by your family tree. This was not the case in an earlier program which caused some problems and embarrassment to the LDS Church.

So what happens to non-Mormons who can’t be baptized after death?

 

[Marie5890]

So what happens to non-Mormons who can’t be baptized after death?

If the theory still is around in LDS circles (not sure if it was ever doctrine), that all people who have ever lived, are living, and will ever live will have the opportunity to either accept or reject the LDS gospel. And temple work will be done for them, and that a BIG and HUGE part of the millennial reign of Christ will be doing temple work for the dead.

So everyone gets an LDS baptism (even Hitler and others like him have had proxy work done for them). In the “spirit world” those people get to accept or reject.

Those who have had a chance in this life, and rejected, or walked away (people like me, and others here who are former mormons, are, by LDS definition, apostates) Im not sure if our names are resubmitted at some time and proxy work done? Muddy waters there (at least that was never clear to me back then. Don’t know what present LDS teaching is.

Beyond that. Only Mormons go to what they call the Celestial kingdom, and only those who are married get to the highest level in that kingdom, called Exhaultation.

Good people who are not Mormon go to the next kingdom down, the Terrestrial.
Bad people, murders and people like that who have never repented or accepted Christ go to the lowest kingdom, the Telestial.

Then there is “Outer Darkness” (the most akin to hell) where the sons of perdition go. People who have “denied the Holy Ghost” and “would crucify Christ again”…This is where Satan is and well as his angels. Outer darkness.

Not really sure where people like we former Mormons fall, since , by definition are apostates? Have we, in LDS doctrine, “denied the Holy Ghost”…Some Mormon theologians and apologists would say no, not if we have not had our “Second Anointed” or had “our calling and election made sure” (LDS doctrines that you can research if you want to know what that means)

Since I never had my “calling and election made sure, and received my second endowment” I don’t believe, by LDS doctrine, I would go to “Outer Darkness”.

Again, this is how I understood these doctrine back in the 80’s-90s. I am not sure if they have developed and evolved since then.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes, Jesus did say a lot of things. If you can find, in the words of Jesus, a better “cherry” that defines His disciples, let me know.

A disciple must love Jesus even more than his immediate family. (Luke 14:26)
A disciple requires self-denial, complete dedication, willing obedience, and total commitment – even unto death (Luke 14:27)
A disciple surrenders everything for Jesus. (Luke 14:33)
A disciple loves others as Jesus has loved him. (John 13:34-35)

A disciple remains true to Jesus’ words and teachings. (John 8:31)

This last one is where the agreement or disagreement lies, when there are discussions about who is or is not a Christian. Obviously, at a Catholic forum the position is that the words and teachings of Jesus are preserved and handed on in the Church He established, and modifications to His words and teachings are either heresy or something entirely different.

 

[kimg901]

If the theory still is around in LDS circles (not sure if it was ever doctrine), that all people who have ever lived, are living, and will ever live will have the opportunity to either accept or reject the LDS gospel. And temple work will be done for them, and that a BIG and HUGE part of the millennial reign of Christ will be doing temple work for the dead.

So everyone gets an LDS baptism (even Hitler and others like him have had proxy work done for them). In the “spirit world” those people get to accept or reject.

Those who have had a chance in this life, and rejected, or walked away (people like me, and others here who are former mormons, are, by LDS definition, apostates) Im not sure if our names are resubmitted at some time and proxy work done? Muddy waters there (at least that was never clear to me back then. Don’t know what present LDS teaching is.

Beyond that. Only Mormons go to what they call the Celestial kingdom, and only those who are married get to the highest level in that kingdom, called Exhaultation.

Good people who are not Mormon go to the next kingdom down, the Terrestrial.
Bad people, murders and people like that who have never repented or accepted Christ go to the lowest kingdom, the Telestial.

Then there is “Outer Darkness” (the most akin to hell) where the sons of perdition go. People who have “denied the Holy Ghost” and “would crucify Christ again”…This is where Satan is and well as his angels. Outer darkness.

Not really sure where people like we former Mormons fall, since , by definition are apostates? Have we, in LDS doctrine, “denied the Holy Ghost”…Some Mormon theologians and apologists would say no, not if we have not had our “Second Anointed” or had “our calling and election made sure” (LDS doctrines that you can research if you want to know what that means)

Since I never had my “calling and election made sure, and received my second endowment” I don’t believe, by LDS doctrine, I would go to “Outer Darkness”.

Again, this is how I understood these doctrine back in the 80’s-90s. I am not sure if they have developed and evolved since then.

This strikes me as odd. So 4 or 3 different levels of Mormon heaven yes? Why would God separate loved ones? Seems cruel to me. I would think God would want all of us to be together for eternity.

 

[Marie5890]

This strikes me as odd. So 4 or 3 different levels of Mormon heaven yes? Why would God separate loved ones? Seems cruel to me. I would think God would want all of us to be together for eternity.

It was this kind of doctrine that the Spirit told me was wrong and that temples were not needed. The whole idea of having to be “sealed” to one another to be a family-for-ever, thing.

Families don’t stop being families because of death. My parents and siblings etc will always be my parents and siblings. Those are facts. You don’t stop loving people simply because death happens

One prevailing theory when I was LDS was that although those who ended up in the Terrestrial kingdom could never go the the Celestial kingdom, those in the Celestial kingdom could visit those in the Terrestial kingdom etc etc.

I was like what? are their security guards or something. Walls or fences? What about free agency (what Catholics call free will). Does it end at death?

The more I actually meditated on the 3 kingdoms and who goes where and how people will relate to each other etc etc, the more convoluted it became to me.

And God isn’t like that. You don’t have to do mental gymnastics with Him.

Families and friends don’t stop being family and friends after death. To the best of my knowledge, no Christian denomination has such a teaching. But LDS theology basically implies that. In order to be a “forever family” you have to be “sealed” to one another.

Mormon temples simply are not necessary.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It was this kind of doctrine that the Spirit told me was wrong and that temples were not needed. The whole idea of having to be “sealed” to one another to be a family-for-ever, thing.

Families don’t stop being families because of death. My parents and siblings etc will always be my parents and siblings. Those are facts. You don’t stop loving people simply because death happens

One prevailing theory when I was LDS was that although those who ended up in the Terrestrial kingdom could never go the the Celestial kingdom, those in the Celestial kingdom could visit those in the Terrestial kingdom etc etc.

I was like what? are their security guards or something. Walls or fences? What about free agency (what Catholics call free will). Does it end at death?

The more I actually meditated on the 3 kingdoms and who goes where and how people will relate to each other etc etc, the more convoluted it became to me.

And God isn’t like that. You don’t have to do mental gymnastics with Him.

Families and friends don’t stop being family and friends after death. To the best of my knowledge, no Christian denomination has such a teaching. But LDS theology basically implies that. In order to be a “forever family” you have to be “sealed” to one another.

Mormon temples simply are not necessary.

As I recall, each Mormon heaven is a different planet, with celestial dwellers having godly attributes that provide interplanetary visiting rights and capabilities. While the lower kingdom dwellers are planet bound.

I agree that Mormon temples are not necessary. However, comparatively, loved ones are not always united in the Catholic two-system afterlife of heaven and hell, and I’ve never heard it taught that heaven dwellers will be visiting hell dwellers.

 

[mtolympus]

So what happens to non-Mormons who can’t be baptized after death?

This work will be completed and corrected during the millennium, the 1000 years of peace after Christ returns. Also, it is important to know that no ordinance is valid unless it is accepted by the person for whom it is being performed, and sealed by the Holy Spirit.