LDS, Do you believe that Jesus died for our salvation?

[LDSGuy]

What does that mean to you?

…that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are each fully God, one isn’t greater than the other, and each is the one substance, which is not divided among them.

 

[Catholic20064]

…that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are each fully God, one isn’t greater than the other, and each is the one substance, which is not divided among them.

So do you see substance as something physical?

 

[LDSGuy]

So do you see substance as something physical?

not necessarily. Traditional Christians see the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as one in essence/being/substance (whatever that substance may be, but it is what makes God God), meaning that that substance is not divided amongst them, is not different amongst them (one isn’t a different substance than another), but they are all one in being, are equal to each other, and each is fully God, no more, no less. This is seen as a mystery.

 

[Catholic20064]

not necessarily. Traditional Christians see the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as one in essence/being/substance (whatever that substance may be, but it is what makes God God), meaning that that substance is not divided amongst them, is not different amongst them (one isn’t a different substance than another), but they are all one in being, are equal to each other, and each is fully God, no more, no less. This is seen as a mystery.

Do you believe that the Son is less God than the Father? Catholics believe the Son is fully God just as the Father is fully God. Do you agree or disagree with that?

 

[LDSGuy]

Do you believe that the Son is less God than the Father? Catholics believe the Son is fully God just as the Father is fully God. Do you agree or disagree with that?

Latter-day Saints believe that John 14:28 shows that the Father and Son are not co-equal. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct Beings, and their unity as one God is through their one purpose and will, not in their Being.

 

[Catholic20064]

Latter-day Saints believe that John 14:28 shows that the Father and Son are not co-equal. We believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three distinct Beings, and their unity as one God is through their one purpose and will, not in their Being.

So you don’t believe the Father and the Son are equally God? Apparently, you believe the Son is less than God?

 

[LDSGuy]

So you don’t believe the Father and the Son are equally God? Apparently, you believe the Son is less than God?

Yes, as I believe was discussed on the Mormon-Trinity thread, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the Father is greater than the Son (subordinationism), and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost together are united in purpose, will, and intent, as one Godhead.

 

[Catholic20064]

Yes, as I believe was discussed on the Mormon-Trinity thread, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the Father is greater than the Son (subordinationism), and that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost together are united in purpose, will, and intent, as one Godhead.

That’s why you can never be called Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. When you see Jesus, you see the Father. As God they are completely equal in every way. Jesus’ will is equal to the Father’s will, not subordinate to the Father’s will.

 

[LDSGuy]

That’s why you can never be called Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. When you see Jesus, you see the Father. As God they are completely equal in every way. Jesus’ will is equal to the Father’s will, not subordinate to the Father’s will.

Yes, they are united in purpose, will, intent.

 

[Finrock]

Good afternoon Lambofgodgirly! I’m glad to meet you. I’m Finrock and I am new to this forum. As a matter of fact, you have the special privilege of being the recipient of my first post. Congratulations!

I enjoy the opportunity to help others to understand the Mormon religion better. I hope that my post will be helpful to you and to anyone else who might be wondering about these same questions. Let me know if I misunderstood you or if you need me to clarify anything.

Why would Jesus die for our salvation if it was going to be lost in an apostasy soon after He ascended into heaven?

The LDS church does not believe that the effects of the atonement was lost. Because of the Apostasy, we do believe that priesthood authority was lost as well as many true doctrines and ordinances. However, we believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ is infinite in it’s scope and in it’s duration (2 Nephi 9:7; Alma 34:11-12). The atonement of Jesus Christ was in effect even during the Apostasy. As a matter of fact, it has essentially been in effect through all generations of time (Jacob 4:11-12).

How do you justify Joseph Smith not lying? How do you know that the vision he had was a Holy vision, and not from something bad?

I have grouped these two questions together because they seem to be in essence the same thing. The LDS church teaches that the Holy Ghost testifies of truth (Moro. 10:4-5). It is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost that I know God the Eternal Father is real, that Jesus Christ lives, and that the Bible is true (John 15:26). Through-out my life I have come to recognize and trust the promptings of the Holy Ghost. Through spiritual experiences and through obedience to God’s commandments I have seen and felt myself become a better person than I was before. In short, the way that I have come to know God through-out my life, through the Spirit, is the same way that I have come to believe that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and his experience came from God and not the Devil. It really is just a matter of faith. Faith that is founded on spiritual experiences and the results of obedience in my life.

You believe what the scriptures say, so why then do you not confess your sins someone in your church?

The LDS church does teach that we must confess our sins. We must always confess our sins to God. If the sin is serious enough, then we must confess either to our bishop (equivalent to Catholic priest) or stake president (equivalent to Catholic bishop).

Why do you not ask Mary or saints to pray for you, do you not believe you all make up the Body of Christ?

We simply do not believe that God has commanded us to venerate Mary or other saints. We believe that we must pray to God, the Eternal Father, through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father and none other. However, we do believe that there is a connection between those who have passed on and those who remain in mortal life. This goes to the question you had about baptisms for the dead, interestingly enough. As you’ll see, the idea of including the dead as a part of our salvation is not dissimilar to the Catholic concept of venerating saints, primarily there is a difference only in how we implement this principle.

Why do you choose to have a picture of Joseph Smith in churches and not Mary, Jesus’ Mother?

I have seen pictures of both at church. There is no calculated effort to specifically not have pictures of Mary. What religious pictures are displayed in any given Ward is really up to the leaders of each Ward, therefore they can vary.

Do you think Joseph Smith is more important than Mary?

I honestly haven’t considered the question before. Considering it now, I don’t think Joseph Smith is more important than Mary. I don’t think Mary is more important than Joseph Smith. They are both children of our Heavenly Father and I believe that He loves them equally as much. They were both given tasks by God to fulfill during mortality. As a whole, I believe the church immensely respects Mary and recognize her faithfulness and her role as the mother of Jesus. In the same way the church immensely respects Joseph Smith and recognize his role as the prophet of the Restoration. However, we venerate neither.

Why don’t you believe Jesus is God when he says in the bible so many times that he is?

The LDS church does believe that Jesus is God. I believe Jesus is God. All of our scriptures attest to this. As a matter of fact, the scriptures that we believe in addition to the Bible, are more clear on this, I think, than the Bible is, and I believe the Bible also.There should never be any doubt of this fact, regardless of what you might hear or read. I reference a few of the scriptures that make clear Jesus Christ is our God and our Savior:

3 Nephi 5:20; 2 Nephi 26:12; D&C 18:33,47; D&C 27:1

Why do you baptize the dead?

We baptize for the dead primarily because we believe it is a commandment. As I mentioned earlier, there is some similarity here with the Catholic practice of venerating the saints and vicarious work for the dead. In both cases we believe that some part of salvation is contingent on our relationship with those who have passed on. The practice of vicarious work for the dead is really a testament of our belief in the afterlife and how the whole human family, the living and the dead, are all tied together in one family. Through baptisms for the dead and other vicarious ordinances, we are attempting to tie the whole human family under the family of Jesus Christ. Another reason is that we believe ordinances, such as baptism, need to be performed in order for us to be exalted. We believe that missionary work continues in the after life, and people have an opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Spirit World if they did not have that opportunity on earth. This way we can perform those necessary ordinances in their behalf, and if they accept the gospel in the Spirit World, then these ordinances will have been done for them. I think also, it is a testament of the justice and mercy of God towards his children.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

The way in which you have framed these questions suggest that you do not really want to find out the truth about our beliefs. You just want to tell us how wrong we are. And I for one am not interested in answering those kinds of questions. If you are sincerely interested in finding out what we believe and why we believe it, then I suggest that you rephrase your questions in such a way that suggests genuine interest, instead of just wanting to tell us how wrong we are, and I will be happy to answer them for you.

You might also consider asking these questions from your husband, or from members of his family who are active in the Church.

zerinus

Zerinus, you have to tell people when they are wrong. What would have happened to us if Jesus was scared our feelings would get hurt, so he didn’t tell us when we were wrong? The questions are asked in a very “genuine interest” way. I really do want to know why y’all do these things! There was one more thing that I wanted to ask too:
If the LDS church has someone excommunicated, do they have to be re-baptized in order to enter back into the Church once their excommunication is lifted? Just curious because I heard on Fox News this morning about that Mormon guy who made a colander called “Men on a Mission” and he was excommunicated and not able to receive his degree from BYU, well the reporter asked him if he would have to be re-baptized into the church in order to lift the excumm, just wondering if that were true because I have never heard of that. The reason I couldn’t talk more in the thread about the questions I was posting (may be the reason you think I wasn’t being genuine) is because I was at work and we were getting ready to leave and I didn’t realize the time, so I had to hurry and post it…Sorry it comes across like that. Usually, I use the first typed version of my thread as a rough draft, and then I go back in and soften and add or take away, but I didn’t’ have time to do that yesterday.

 

[LAMBOFGODGIRLY]

In some ways, I think baptism is how a person becomes a part of a particular denomination. In the Catholic Church, you become a Catholic very close to your birth.

In some Protestant churches you need to be of an age where you can make a choice, whether or not you want to be baptized in Jesus’ name, (or born again). Sounds like the Mormons wait until a child is at the age of accountabilty, where they know the difference between wrong and right to be baptized.

I suppose that if the child is baptized later than infancy, they still belong to the church their parents attend, but are they aren’t “officially” of that denomination until baptism. Or maybe I’m wrong - just an idea!

The way they baptize doesn’t make since to me either. If they wait to baptize a kid until the age of reason, than you should wait until the kid is at least 16 or 17 because I promise, a kid at 8 has no clue about right or wrong, truth or not truth. He only knows what has been brought to light before him. Being this is a child; he could not have gone out and disagreed on any of it because he doesn’t know any different. I could not imagine an 8 year old searching for his own path for salvation, and not the way his parents raised him to be. I’m just speaking realistically.

 

[zerinus]

What does “one in substance” mean to you?

In the original Nicene Creed, the expression “of one substance” was used to mean that Father and the Son were composed of the same “material,” for want of a better word. In other words, just as you and I are made of the same materials (i.e. of the dust of the earth, to use a biblical term; or the elements of this world, to use a scientific one); the Father and the Son were also made of the same “stuff,” whatever that was. It was not used to mean that the Father and the Son were one and the same beings.

Do you believe that the Son is less God than the Father? Catholics believe the Son is fully God just as the Father is fully God. Do you agree or disagree with that?

We agree. We believe that the Father and the Son are equally God.

So you don’t believe the Father and the Son are equally God? Apparently, you believe the Son is less than God?

No. We believe that the Son is subordinate to the Father. Subordinate does not translate into “less God than”. If I am subordinate to you, it does not mean that I am less human than you are. Similarly, Jesus being subordinate to the Father does not make Him “less God” than the Father.

That’s why you can never be called Christian in any meaningful sense of the word. When you see Jesus, you see the Father. As God they are completely equal in every way.

Then your theology contradicts the Bible. The Bible teaches that the Son is subordinate to the Father (John 14:28; 20:17).

Jesus’ will is equal to the Father’s will, not subordinate to the Father’s will.

Not biblical. The Bible teaches that the will of the Son is subordinate to the will of the Father. Here is an example:

John 8:

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

The Son acts according to the will of the Father, not the Father according to the will of the Son.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Good afternoon Lambofgodgirly! I’m glad to meet you. I’m Finrock and I am new to this forum. As a matter of fact, you have the special privilege of being the recipient of my first post. Congratulations!

I enjoy the opportunity to help others to understand the Mormon religion better. I hope that my post will be helpful to you and to anyone else who might be wondering about these same questions. Let me know if I misunderstood you or if you need me to clarify anything.

The LDS church does not believe that the effects of the atonement was lost. Because of the Apostasy, we do believe that priesthood authority was lost as well as many true doctrines and ordinances. However, we believe that the atonement of Jesus Christ is infinite in it’s scope and in it’s duration (2 Nephi 9:7; Alma 34:11-12). The atonement of Jesus Christ was in effect even during the Apostasy. As a matter of fact, it has essentially been in effect through all generations of time (Jacob 4:11-12).

I have grouped these two questions together because they seem to be in essence the same thing. The LDS church teaches that the Holy Ghost testifies of truth (Moro. 10:4-5). It is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost that I know God the Eternal Father is real, that Jesus Christ lives, and that the Bible is true (John 15:26). Through-out my life I have come to recognize and trust the promptings of the Holy Ghost. Through spiritual experiences and through obedience to God’s commandments I have seen and felt myself become a better person than I was before. In short, the way that I have come to know God through-out my life, through the Spirit, is the same way that I have come to believe that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and his experience came from God and not the Devil. It really is just a matter of faith. Faith that is founded on spiritual experiences and the results of obedience in my life.

The LDS church does teach that we must confess our sins. We must always confess our sins to God. If the sin is serious enough, then we must confess either to our bishop (equivalent to Catholic priest) or stake president (equivalent to Catholic bishop).

We simply do not believe that God has commanded us to venerate Mary or other saints. We believe that we must pray to God, the Eternal Father, through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is our advocate with the Father and none other. However, we do believe that there is a connection between those who have passed on and those who remain in mortal life. This goes to the question you had about baptisms for the dead, interestingly enough. As you’ll see, the idea of including the dead as a part of our salvation is not dissimilar to the Catholic concept of venerating saints, primarily there is a difference only in how we implement this principle.

I have seen pictures of both at church. There is no calculated effort to specifically not have pictures of Mary. What religious pictures are displayed in any given Ward is really up to the leaders of each Ward, therefore they can vary.

I honestly haven’t considered the question before. Considering it now, I don’t think Joseph Smith is more important than Mary. I don’t think Mary is more important than Joseph Smith. They are both children of our Heavenly Father and I believe that He loves them equally as much. They were both given tasks by God to fulfill during mortality. As a whole, I believe the church immensely respects Mary and recognize her faithfulness and her role as the mother of Jesus. In the same way the church immensely respects Joseph Smith and recognize his role as the prophet of the Restoration. However, we venerate neither.

The LDS church does believe that Jesus is God. I believe Jesus is God. All of our scriptures attest to this. As a matter of fact, the scriptures that we believe in addition to the Bible, are more clear on this, I think, than the Bible is, and I believe the Bible also.There should never be any doubt of this fact, regardless of what you might hear or read. I reference a few of the scriptures that make clear Jesus Christ is our God and our Savior:

3 Nephi 5:20; 2 Nephi 26:12; D&C 18:33,47; D&C 27:1

We baptize for the dead primarily because we believe it is a commandment. As I mentioned earlier, there is some similarity here with the Catholic practice of venerating the saints and vicarious work for the dead. In both cases we believe that some part of salvation is contingent on our relationship with those who have passed on. The practice of vicarious work for the dead is really a testament of our belief in the afterlife and how the whole human family, the living and the dead, are all tied together in one family. Through baptisms for the dead and other vicarious ordinances, we are attempting to tie the whole human family under the family of Jesus Christ. Another reason is that we believe ordinances, such as baptism, need to be performed in order for us to be exalted. We believe that missionary work continues in the after life, and people have an opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ in the Spirit World if they did not have that opportunity on earth. This way we can perform those necessary ordinances in their behalf, and if they accept the gospel in the Spirit World, then these ordinances will have been done for them. I think also, it is a testament of the justice and mercy of God towards his children.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

You are doing pretty well, Finrock. I am (name removed by moderator)ressed!

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus, you have to tell people when they are wrong. What would have happened to us if Jesus was scared our feelings would get hurt, so he didn’t tell us when we were wrong? The questions are asked in a very “genuine interest” way. I really do want to know why y’all do these things!

I am sure you are. Sorry for misunderstanding your questions. Finrock has given good answers to your questions. I don’t have anything more to add to what he has said at the moment.

There was one more thing that I wanted to ask too:

If the LDS church has someone excommunicated, do they have to be re-baptized in order to enter back into the Church once their excommunication is lifted? . . .

Yes. In our Church, an excommunicated person has to be rebaptized to rejoin the Church. When you are excommunicated, that means that you are not a member of the Church any more. You are like someone who has not been a member. So you join (or rejoin) the Church in the same way as any non-member does—by baptism.

zerinus

 

[RebeccaJ]

Does baptism erase that tendency to sin? What does baptism do for us as an infant if some sort of guilt is not being wiped out?

What does baptism do for an 8 year old?

 

[zerinus]

The way they baptize doesn’t make since to me either. If they wait to baptize a kid until the age of reason, than you should wait until the kid is at least 16 or 17 because I promise, a kid at 8 has no clue about right or wrong, truth or not truth. He only knows what has been brought to light before him. Being this is a child; he could not have gone out and disagreed on any of it because he doesn’t know any different. I could not imagine an 8 year old searching for his own path for salvation, and not the way his parents raised him to be. I’m just speaking realistically.

God has revealed to us that the age at which children begin to become accountable before God, and thus capable of repentance, is the age of eight. That is what we go by. Recognition of sin and he ability to repent are the key requirements of baptism.

 

[zerinus]

The way they baptize doesn’t make since to me either. If they wait to baptize a kid until the age of reason, than you should wait until the kid is at least 16 or 17 because I promise, a kid at 8 has no clue about right or wrong, truth or not truth. He only knows what has been brought to light before him. Being this is a child; he could not have gone out and disagreed on any of it because he doesn’t know any different. I could not imagine an 8 year old searching for his own path for salvation, and not the way his parents raised him to be. I’m just speaking realistically.

God has revealed to us that the age at which children begin to become accountable before God, and thus capable of repentance, is the age of eight. That is what we go by. Recognition of sin and he ability to repent are the key requirements of baptism.

zerinus

 

[ParkerD]

The way they baptize doesn’t make since to me either. If they wait to baptize a kid until the age of reason, than you should wait until the kid is at least 16 or 17 because I promise, a kid at 8 has no clue about right or wrong, truth or not truth. He only knows what has been brought to light before him. Being this is a child; he could not have gone out and disagreed on any of it because he doesn’t know any different. I could not imagine an 8 year old searching for his own path for salvation, and not the way his parents raised him to be. I’m just speaking realistically.

Lamb of God Girly,
I think you brought up a good point. Because youth are influenced by so many factors in their decision-making, I think that God will be very understanding and compassionate in judging their decisions at young ages.

An important step that goes along with LDS baptism at the age of eight is the gift of the Holy Ghost. I and many others consider it to have been the greatest gift I have ever received in my life, other than the gift of Christ’s atonement. My dad baptized me at age eight, and the next day my grandfather placed his hands on my head during a congregational meeting and conferred the gift of the Holy Ghost so that I could receive spiritual guidance in my decision-making and in my education, comfort at times of sorrow, and spiritual strength to resist temptations. I prize that supernal gift from God through the priesthood.

I would fully expect that other religious people receive guidance from the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) in their lives. The LDS belief is that the “gift of the Holy Ghost” provides an assurance that the Holy Ghost will guide each person who receives this gift frequently if they live worthily, and each individual will be sanctified by the Spirit during the course of their lives.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Lamb of God Girly,
I think you brought up a good point. Because youth are influenced by so many factors in their decision-making, I think that God will be very understanding and compassionate in judging their decisions at young ages.

An important step that goes along with LDS baptism at the age of eight is the gift of the Holy Ghost. I and many others consider it to have been the greatest gift I have ever received in my life, other than the gift of Christ’s atonement. My dad baptized me at age eight, and the next day my grandfather placed his hands on my head during a congregational meeting and conferred the gift of the Holy Ghost so that I could receive spiritual guidance in my decision-making and in my education, comfort at times of sorrow, and spiritual strength to resist temptations. I prize that supernal gift from God through the priesthood.

I would fully expect that other religious people receive guidance from the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) in their lives. The LDS belief is that the “gift of the Holy Ghost” provides an assurance that the Holy Ghost will guide each person who receives this gift frequently if they live worthily, and each individual will be sanctified by the Spirit during the course of their lives.

Actually the age of seven or eight is a traditional age of accountability. The Catholic Church makes use of this age to have the child receive his/her first Holy Communion. This means that a child is aware of sin and right and wrong, and can make a confession to the Priest about his/her sins. Granted, those sins are usually rather trivial, but they still are small sins that could grow bigger without religious education and a sense of remorse.