LDS, Do you believe that Jesus died for our salvation?

[ParkerD]

This whole post sounds like the old milk before meat argument. Don’t let anyone know what Mormons really teach until you’ve got the potential sucker baptized. Then you tell them the doctrine that was omitted from the missionary discussions. At that point they either accept them or as most commonly happens, they go out the door never to come back. It takes a lifelong indoctrination from the cradle to cause most Mormons to believe what their church really teaches because it is so absurd it can only be imparted through continued brainwashing from the cradle on.

Catholic20064,
No, I didn’t mean “milk before meat”. I meant, “you already have exactly what you want.” “God has granted you exactly what you want, and will continue to do that throughout your life.” You ought to be rejoicing every day with the precious gifts He has given you, that you are asking Him for by the kind of life you live and the kinds of questions you ask Him. I have no problem with you being very comfortable and joyful with what you have. As far as I’m concerned, God designed and planned this world with that very thing in Mind.

 

[Catholic20064]

Catholic20064,
I have no idea how you received the very wrong misunderstanding as to the teaching in the LDS church of Jesus Christ’s unique divinity. Only He was divine as the Firstborn of the Father in both pre-mortal life (as the Firstborn spirit Son of God) and in mortality as the Only Begotten Son of the Father. He is absolutely unique in every conceivable way.

I am very much aware that there is a simple phrase “God was once a man like us” or “As man now is, God once was,” but when you look at the context of Joseph Smith’s teaching on this subject, you find that he is quoting the Bible to show that Christ “does what He sees that the Father did before this world came into existence.” Joseph Smith also taught what the Apostle John taught and Christ Himself taught, that humankind can become joint-heirs with Him through His power and His grace.

I am not surprised at all by the Nicene council having to come to grips with that idea of becoming a joint heir with Christ, and also with the idea of whether God the Father has a body and is a separate being from God the Son. I am not surprised at all that they decided it was “easier” to have people believe that God is too mysterious to really be understood, and that when God the Son came to earth, that was really another manifestation of God the Father. Further, that any idea of becoming joint-heirs is too prideful to be acceptable doctrine, (even though it is clearly and repeatedly taught by Christ and John). Further, that humankind should accede to the Nicene council’s teachings and authority rather than have any impression that every person can have a relationship with God that entitles them to receive personal revelation, including revelation about their potential to actually become like Him since He is our Father who loves us just as a father loves his children and wants them to be as happy as he is.

In this world, we think in terms of win/lose–if there is a winner, there must have been many losers. Christ offered a completely different picture. He is the pre-eminent Victor, the Conqueror, but He offers a joint throne with Him, through Him, because of Him. This does not make Him any less. It means He has done something that really is mortally inconceivable. I can’t possibly comprehend how eternity can allow such a thing (it seems too far a stretch of the imagination and certainly unattainable except for the fact that God can do ALL THINGS), but yet HE PROMISED IT ANYWAY.

I don’t blame you for resisting the idea. I would also, if it hadn’t been so clearly taught in the Bible.

There you go again – hiding the real teachings. Jesus is just like us in Mormonism – the spirit offspring in the pre-existence of a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. This Heavenly Father is not like our God the only God of the universe, but descended from one of many Gods who existed before Him. He had spirit offspring and Jesus was only one of them, just like us. He is not unique in any real way except that he was fathered in this life by God through Mary. Jesus progressed to become a God in the pre-existence rather than always being God. That’s what Mormons are taught that they won’t teach their investigators until after they are baptized. We are the same as the Father and the Son rather than being of a different nature, a human nature. While we are certainly co-heirs with the Son we are not as Mormons claim future Gods who will have our own planets descended from all of the other Gods like God the Father is in Mormonism. It makes God nothing more than a creature of the universe rather than the Creator of all things. Much different than what a Mormon prospect would get from listening to the missionaries.

 

[ParkerD]

(1) what does it mean to LDS that Jesus was the only begotten son of the Father?

(2) and neither the Nicene Creed nor the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus was/is a manifestation of the Father.

Religio71,
(1) It means exactly what the words say. “Only” is singular, and means “uniquely distinctively one of a kind.” “Begotten” is from the word “beget” which means “to procreate as the father” (see dictionary) but we know that He “procreated” in such a way (through the overshadowing of the Holy Ghost) that Mary remained a Virgin yet Jesus Christ inherited God the Father’s divine qualities and was thus God the Son in the Flesh.

(2) Now you get to teach me. If you would like, I would like to have a better understanding of what evidently is my misunderstanding about that and about becoming a joint heir. I am not questioning your beliefs. I just want to try and really understand them without having to read a catechism or the Catholic encyclopedia, which when I read I often don’t understand in a way that makes sense to me. Thanks in advance.

 

[ParkerD]

There you go again – hiding the real teachings. Jesus is just like us in Mormonism – the spirit offspring in the pre-existence of a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother. This Heavenly Father is not like our God the only God of the universe, but descended from one of many Gods who existed before Him. He had spirit offspring and Jesus was only one of them, just like us. He is not unique in any real way except that he was fathered in this life by God through Mary. Jesus progressed to become a God in the pre-existence rather than always being God. That’s what Mormons are taught that they won’t teach their investigators until after they are baptized. We are the same as the Father and the Son rather than being of a different nature, a human nature. While we are certainly co-heirs with the Son we are not as Mormons claim future Gods who will have our own planets descended from all of the other Gods like God the Father is in Mormonism. It makes God nothing more than a creature of the universe rather than the Creator of all things. Much different than what a Mormon prospect would get from listening to the missionaries.

No, I am not hiding the “real teachings”. As to your final point, Mormon missionaries are interested in people receiving the Holy Ghost before they try and understand every teaching of the Bible in depth. That is totally consistent with the Bible.

I have no idea whether Christ was the “spirit offspring of a Heavenly Mother”, but I do absolutely know that He was the Firstborn Spirit of Heavenly Father.

If I have understood correctly, you believe God lives outside of the universe or within it, as He chooses at any point in time. I do believe God lives in the universe, so we differ. I believe the word “universe” can be a bigger entity than the particular universe we live in, so I believe God “created (organized from unorganized matter and energy)” this particular universe, with all of its beauty, splendor, and magnificence.

I believe that the power (omnipotence) that God the Father has is precisely because He uses that power and His love and faith in total righteousness and goodness, including allowing the agency of His children. He allows us to grow because He loves us, knowing our growth will help us become happier.

I believe God has always been God as far as my mind and intellect can comprehend. The same goes for Jesus Christ. I personally think They have always been Perfect Beings, totally doing the right thing at the right time in the right place at every moment in eternal time.

 

[Catholic20064]

No, I am not hiding the “real teachings”. As to your final point, Mormon missionaries are interested in people receiving the Holy Ghost before they try and understand every teaching of the Bible in depth. That is totally consistent with the Bible.

I have no idea whether Christ was the “spirit offspring of a Heavenly Mother”, but I do absolutely know that He was the Firstborn Spirit of Heavenly Father.

If I have understood correctly, you believe God lives outside of the universe or within it, as He chooses at any point in time. I do believe God lives in the universe, so we differ. I believe the word “universe” can be a bigger entity than the particular universe we live in, so I believe God “created (organized from unorganized matter and energy)” this particular universe, with all of its beauty, splendor, and magnificence.

I believe that the power (omnipotence) that God the Father has is precisely because He uses that power and His love and faith in total righteousness and goodness, including allowing the agency of His children. He allows us to grow because He loves us, knowing our growth will help us become happier.

I believe God has always been God as far as my mind and intellect can comprehend. The same goes for Jesus Christ. I personally think They have always been Perfect Beings, totally doing the right thing at the right time in the right place at every moment in eternal time.

They have always been God as far as your mind and intellect can comprehend? Please. Why don’t you just come out and say they haven’t always been God which is what Mormonism really teaches. What a dodge to say “as far as my mind and intellect can comprehend.” Eternal time? The point about eternity is there is not time in eternity. God just exists beyond space and time – to believe anything else is to make what you call God less than God.

 

[Religio71]

Religio71,
(1) It means exactly what the words say. “Only” is singular, and means “uniquely distinctively one of a kind.” “Begotten” is from the word “beget” which means “to procreate as the father” (see dictionary) but we know that He “procreated” in such a way (through the overshadowing of the Holy Ghost) that Mary remained a Virgin yet Jesus Christ inherited God the Father’s divine qualities and was thus God the Son in the Flesh.

(2) Now you get to teach me. If you would like, I would like to have a better understanding of what evidently is my misunderstanding about that and about becoming a joint heir. I am not questioning your beliefs. I just want to try and really understand them without having to read a catechism or the Catholic encyclopedia, which when I read I often don’t understand in a way that makes sense to me. Thanks in advance.

So the LDS Church believes that we are all spirit children of God the Father, and that Jesus Christ was the first spirit Son of the Father. I’m just trying to understand how Jesus is the only-begotten Son of the Father, when we’re all sons and daughters of the Father.

Yes, Catholics believe that in baptism, we become joint-heirs in Christ. From the Catechism:
1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and co-heir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70

When you said that Catholics or the Nicene Creed teaches that Jesus is a manifestation of the Father, this seemed to be going into modalism. Catholics believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate persons, but they are of one substance. Each is fully God. So when Jesus came to earth, it wasn’t merely “another” manifestation of the Father, but literally God becoming man, as Jesus has always been God, co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[ParkerD]

They have always been God as far as your mind and intellect can comprehend? Please. Why don’t you just come out and say they haven’t always been God which is what Mormonism really teaches. What a dodge to say “as far as my mind and intellect can comprehend.” Eternal time? The point about eternity is there is not time in eternity. God just exists beyond space and time – to believe anything else is to make what you call God less than God.

No–it is to make what you call God “less” than God. If you would like, you can describe what you call God, and I would appreciate it and will understand you better.

You have thought that Mormonism teaches that God the Father hasn’t always been God. I think He lived at one time on an earth, but that doesn’t mean He wasn’t God when He did that. Christ was God, and did that, on the very world where we live. This I know to be true.

 

[Religio71]

From the King Follet discourse, Joseph Smith said:

“For we have imagined that God was God from the beginning of all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so you may see.”

“The first principle of truth and of the Gospel is to know for a certainty the character of
God, and that we may converse with Him the same as one man with another, and that He once was a manlike one of us and that God Himself, the Father of us all, once dwelled on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did in the flesh and like us.”

So according to Joseph Smith, the first prophet of the Restored Church of Jesus Christ, God the Father was once a man like us, as Jesus Christ was as well.

 

[Catholic20064]

No–it is to make what you call God “less” than God. If you would like, you can describe what you call God, and I would appreciate it and will understand you better.

You have thought that Mormonism teaches that God the Father hasn’t always been God. I think He lived at one time on an earth, but that doesn’t mean He wasn’t God when He did that. Christ was God, and did that, on the very world where we live. This I know to be true.

Was Christ always God before he came to earth? Was Heavenly Father always God before he lived on the earth that LDS suppose? They are simply descendants from other Gods according to the LDS. And who is to know whether or not the Gods they descended from were Gods on their earths? And who really can say whether or not Heavenly Father was a God on His earth? Is there any evidence of that in LDS theology or is that just a way to dodge the question altogether by saying that Heavenly Father was already God on his earth like Jesus? And if they had to be Gods on their earths to be God how is it ever possible or likely that we less than perfect human beings that aren’t Gods really can become Gods as the LDS teach? It is all a mass of confusion.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

They have always been God as far as your mind and intellect can comprehend? Please. Why don’t you just come out and say they haven’t always been God which is what Mormonism really teaches. What a dodge to say “as far as my mind and intellect can comprehend.” Eternal time? The point about eternity is there is not time in eternity. God just exists beyond space and time – to believe anything else is to make what you call God less than God.

I may be way off base, but it seems like Mormons today don’t believe in a lot of the stuff that was taught by Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. For sure, they don’t believe in polygamy anymore. I don’t know for sure, but people with their own planets, and God impregnating Mary seems to be debatable too. I think they are more mainstream in a lot of thier religious beliefs now, but of course they have beliefs and practices unique to the LDS church. At least that is what I think I am gleaning from these posts.

 

[Religio71]

No–it is to make what you call God “less” than God. If you would like, you can describe what you call God, and I would appreciate it and will understand you better.

You have thought that Mormonism teaches that God the Father hasn’t always been God. I think He lived at one time on an earth, but that doesn’t mean He wasn’t God when He did that. Christ was God, and did that, on the very world where we live. This I know to be true.

From my above quotes from the King Follet Discourse, Joseph Smith taught that God was not always God, and that God the Father lived on an earth just like Jesus Christ did, which you seem to agree with. However, Joseph Smith would not say that the Father was always God, and that the Father was not God when he lived on an earth.

Was Joseph Smith teaching incorrect beliefs?

 

[Catholic20064]

I may be way off base, but it seems like Mormons today don’t believe in a lot of the stuff that was taught by Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. For sure, they don’t believe in polygamy anymore. I don’t know for sure, but people with their own planets, and God impregnating Mary seems to be debatable too. I think they are more mainstream in a lot of thier religious beliefs now, but of course they have beliefs and practices unique to the LDS church. At least that is what I think I am gleaning from these posts.

Oh, but they still do believe in polygamy, just not in this life. If a Mormon man is married to a woman after he is divorced civilly or after his first wife dies, any future wives are sealed to him for time and all eternity. They have not renounced polygamy they just hide it. I know several men who are divorced from their wives civilly, have taken new wives, but remain sealed to the previous wives. They don’t live together, but they are still sealed for eternity together to multiple wives.

 

[ParkerD]

So the LDS Church believes that we are all spirit children of God the Father, and that Jesus Christ was the first spirit Son of the Father. I’m just trying to understand how Jesus is the only-begotten Son of the Father, when we’re all sons and daughters of the Father.

Yes, Catholics believe that in baptism, we become joint-heirs in Christ. From the Catechism:
1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"68 member of Christ and co-heir with him,69 and a temple of the Holy Spirit.70

When you said that Catholics or the Nicene Creed teaches that Jesus is a manifestation of the Father, this seemed to be going into modalism. Catholics believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate persons, but they are of one substance. Each is fully God. So when Jesus came to earth, it wasn’t merely “another” manifestation of the Father, but literally God becoming man, as Jesus has always been God, co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Religio71,
Thanks! I honestly would love to understand what you personally believe the words of the catechism mean by saying, “a partaker of the divine nature” and “co-heir with him.” Are there other words you could use to expand my understanding of the meaning expressed?

I also am at a loss to understand “separate persons but one substance.” If I see a “person”, then I see an individual. To me, “substance” has “discrete existence,” which if touched could be felt. When Stephen said before he was stoned to death,

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

then I have the impression that God the Father and Jesus were separate persons and could be seen (with the assistance of the Holy Ghost).

 

[ParkerD]

From the King Follet discourse, Joseph Smith said:

“For we have imagined that God was God from the beginning of all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil so you may see.”

“The first principle of truth and of the Gospel is to know for a certainty the character of
God, and that we may converse with Him the same as one man with another, and that He once was a man like us and that God Himself, the Father of us all, once dwelled on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did.”
So according to Joseph Smith, the first prophet of the Restored Church of Jesus Christ, God the Father was once a man like us (NO–like Christ), as Jesus Christ was as well (NO–Christ was the Only Begotten of the Father, Uniquely Himself).

Religio71,
Here are the pertinent quotes from the King Follett Discourse:

"God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I had the trump of an archangel; I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, “As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power.” To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious–in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."
…
“Here, then, is eternal life–to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves–to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done–by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.”
…
“How consoling to the mourner when he is called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that although the earthly tabernacle shall be dissolved that dear one shall rise in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more but shall be God’s heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? It is to inherit the same glory, the same power, and the same exaltation until you ascend the throne of eternal power the same as those who are gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory. And so Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before.”
…
“We say that God himself is a self-existing God. Who told you so? It is correct enough, but how did it get into your heads?”
…
"The mind of man is as immortal as God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their friends and relatives are separated from their bodies for only a short season; their spirits existed coequal (i.e. coeternal, because they always existed) with God, and they now exist in a place where they converse together, the same as we do on the earth. Is it logic to say that a spirit is immortal and yet has a beginning? Because if a spirit has a beginning, it will have an end. That is good logic. I want to reason further on the spirit of man, for I am dwelling on the spirit and body of man–on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man, the immortal spirit, because it has no beginning. Suppose I cut it in two; as the Lord lives, because it has a beginning, it would have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation who say that man had a beginning prove that he must have an end. If that were so, the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house tops that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence exists upon a self-existent principle; it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. Moreover, all the spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible to enlargement.

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God found himself in the midst of spirits and glory, and because he was greater, he saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have the privilege of advancing like himself–that they might have one glory upon another and all the knowledge, power, and glory necessary…"

 

[JohnVIII]

No, I am not hiding the “real teachings”. . . . I believe God has always been God as far as my mind and intellect can comprehend. The same goes for Jesus Christ. I personally think They have always been Perfect Beings . . .

Perhaps you also believe that every one of us have always existed from all eternity; originally we all existed as “intelligences”. Then heavenly father and heavenly mother gave us spirit bodies. Then earthly father of an earthly mother gave us our physical bodies. We have existed for ever and we will continue to exist forever. So, what salvation did Jesus die to give us? It’s not salvation from hell; is it salvation from a lesser degree of eternal glory?

Please answer this one question for me: If I committed the sin of first-degree murder, could I be totally forgiven solely by the merits of the death of Jesus Christ on the cross; and in the hereafter go on to the first-degree of the Celestial Kingdom and be a God?

 

[Religio71]

Religio71,
Thanks! I honestly would love to understand what you personally believe the words of the catechism mean by saying, “a partaker of the divine nature” and “co-heir with him.” Are there other words you could use to expand my understanding of the meaning expressed?

I also am at a loss to understand “separate persons but one substance.” If I see a “person”, then I see an individual. To me, “substance” has “discrete existence,” which if touched could be felt. When Stephen said before he was stoned to death,

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

then I have the impression that God the Father and Jesus were separate persons and could be seen (with the assistance of the Holy Ghost).

ParkerD,

By substance we typically mean what makes God, God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all distinct persons:

"254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.“87”

So, the Catechism is saying that the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Son, the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. They are distinct persons. They are one in that they are all the same substance. "In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.“85”, “The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire”. So, they are three separate, distinct persons, yet they all are that one substance that makes God, God. One person isn’t more or less of that substance, as they are all co-equal.

We believe we are co-heirs in Christ, sharing in His Resurrection. In salvation we are risen up with Christ, participating in His heavenly life. " 1025 To live in heaven is “to be with Christ.” The elect live "in Christ,“598 but they retain, or rather find, their true identity, their own name.599”. We also believe that we will truly behold God, through the beatific vision. Through the beatific vision we will be able to see God in all His glory.

 

[Religio71]

Religio71,
Here are the pertinent quotes from the King Follett Discourse:

"God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible.

I wish I had the trump of an archangel; I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease forever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, elder Rigdon!) Jesus said, “As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power.” To do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious–in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again."
…
“Here, then, is eternal life–to know the only wise and true God. And you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves–to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done–by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.”
…
“How consoling to the mourner when he is called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child, or dear relative, to know that although the earthly tabernacle shall be dissolved that dear one shall rise in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer, or die any more but shall be God’s heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? It is to inherit the same glory, the same power, and the same exaltation until you ascend the throne of eternal power the same as those who are gone before. What did Jesus do? Why, I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory. And so Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before.”
…
“We say that God himself is a self-existing God. Who told you so? It is correct enough, but how did it get into your heads?”
…
"The mind of man is as immortal as God himself. I know that my testimony is true; hence, when I talk to these mourners, what have they lost? Their friends and relatives are separated from their bodies for only a short season; their spirits existed coequal (i.e. coeternal, because they always existed) with God, and they now exist in a place where they converse together, the same as we do on the earth. Is it logic to say that a spirit is immortal and yet has a beginning? Because if a spirit has a beginning, it will have an end. That is good logic. I want to reason further on the spirit of man, for I am dwelling on the spirit and body of man–on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man, the immortal spirit, because it has no beginning. Suppose I cut it in two; as the Lord lives, because it has a beginning, it would have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation who say that man had a beginning prove that he must have an end. If that were so, the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house tops that God never did have power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence exists upon a self-existent principle; it is a spirit from age to age, and there is no creation about it. Moreover, all the spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible to enlargement.

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God found himself in the midst of spirits and glory, and because he was greater, he saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have the privilege of advancing like himself–that they might have one glory upon another and all the knowledge, power, and glory necessary…"

Thanks for the quotes. However I still don’t see how these explain what Joseph Smith also said in the same discourse, that God was not God for all eternity. If this is the case, then did God have a God before Him?

 

[Finrock]

I may be way off base, but it seems like Mormons today don’t believe in a lot of the stuff that was taught by Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. For sure, they don’t believe in polygamy anymore. I don’t know for sure, but people with their own planets, and God impregnating Mary seems to be debatable too. I think they are more mainstream in a lot of thier religious beliefs now, but of course they have beliefs and practices unique to the LDS church. At least that is what I think I am gleaning from these posts.

Hi Christine77! Good afternoon.

What is happening is that there is an intermingling of doctrine with pseudo-doctrine. There are things presented that simply aren’t doctrine. There is also an attempt to present true doctrine in a very negative light. It’s kind of like having someone take the Catholic conception of the Eucharist and describe it in the most negative way possible (i.e., Catholics are blood-thirsty cannibals because they believe they are literally eating Jesus’ flesh and literally drinking His blood. Satanist eat and drink raw flesh and blood!)*.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

*Just to be sure I’m not misunderstood, I absolutely do not believe this, but was just using that as an example of what I am talking about. Some anti-catholics do say and believe such things.

 

[ParkerD]

Thanks for the quotes. However I still don’t see how these explain what Joseph Smith also said in the same discourse, that God was not God for all eternity. If this is the case, then did God have a God before Him?

Religio71,
I can understand why you would ask that question. I’ve wondered it myself, but I don’t feel like I know the answer. I feel as I also read the Lectures on Faith which Joseph Smith used as a teaching resource, that God the Father is and has always been the Supreme Ruler of this Universe. If there was a previous distinct universe (apart from this universe) where God the Father lived, then I have to assume from the teaching of the Bible and Joseph Smith’s insights, that God the Father lived a sinless life there just as Jesus did here, and was resurrected with a Perfect Eternal body and that as far as this universe where we are living is concerned, He is God the Eternal Father and the Supreme Ruler of the universe from all eternity backwards in time to all eternity forwards in time.

But again, whether He was Self-existent as God or “had a God before Him”, I just don’t know nor do I think it is pertinent to my salvation or growth.

 

[Catholic20064]

Religio71,

But again, whether He was Self-existent as God or “had a God before Him”, I just don’t know nor do I think it is pertinent to my salvation or growth.

But have you ever considered that it might be a good way to figure out whether Joseph Smith was a prophet or not? That he could so totally contradict the Lectures on Faith should tell you something about the inspiration of Joseph Smith. Of course many folks think Sidney Rigdon wrote the Lectures on Faith anyway, but why would Joseph say one thing in the middle 1830s and then so totally contradict it in 1844? Why would the Book of Mormon claim that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are One Eternal God and then Joseph Smith would totally contradict that notion in 1844? There is the possibility that he had become a complete megalomaniac by 1844 when he decided he could become a God (not a god, a God), but in any event he completely contradicted previous Mormon teaching with his Nauvoo doctrines.