LDS Doctrine of Eternal Progression/Catholic View

[rmcmullan]

Peter John: You would have been better off quoting D&C 121:39-44. I assume you know it. Seems more relevant in this case.

When I ask questions, I get a variety of responses with a variety of clarity. From your comment I assume you do believe that He can perfect us. According to Rev 5:10, we can become His kings and priests. Do you agree with that? I can’t understand how you simultaneously can have the common priesthood of the faithful and not hold the priesthood. I guess it doesn’t matter that much in the long run.

I’m still trying to get at what limit you think there is to God perfecting us. Let’s say you agree that we can become kings and priests to the Most High? Maybe even ordained as such. And like Him. Maybe even as much as the Son is like the Father. How does that differ from being gods? I know you are adamantly not that because then you would be Mormanes and they are morans.

This is the point I’m stuck on.

As for following the Holy Ghost, take a look at Moroni 10:3-5.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I don’t know if I would say “want to see.” Especially when raised in the Chruch one has an antirely different world view. An actual issue of being able to shift to another perspective exists there. I do not mean that as a criticism.

True, would be better to say “need to see”. It is more than perspective, it is behavioral. Mormons are so accustomed and adept at twisting truth into something that is was never meant to be, that they can’t stop doing it.

 

[Peter_John]

Answer to first part:

Peter John: You would have been better off quoting D&C 121:39-44. I assume you know it. Seems more relevant in this case…I’m still trying to get at what limit you think there is to God perfecting us.

I actually prefer D&C 121verses 36-38. It does not reflect my own experience. From the time I was `18 I never lied to my priesthood leaders about non-compliance with church behavioral rules, which is why I had no authority for most of my life. I was neither looking for another Church nor criticizing Mormonism, beyond a personal recognition that the Church does not itself teach the principles of the Book of Mormon – but I saw myself as in no position to criticize the Church.

Doctrine & Covenants 121
36That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

[Doctrine and Covenants 121 ](Doctrine and Covenants 121 [/quote)

By this standard every LDS member who performs an ordinance while covering a sin or “in any degree of unrighteousness” has no authority already. It is actually a passage that voids many of the other “promisies” in the Doctrine and Covenants. Sit down and write out all the promises and all the conditions, and what you find is a standard impossible to meet as a human being, and since all promises hinge on those standards, nobody can claim the rewards of them.

God can make us as perfect as He wants to and as we let him. Saying this makes us Godlike focuses on us, not him. We will share in the nature of His relationship to CHrist, and it is only in Christ that he makes us perfect. We cannot achieve this by trying to be perfect.

If we have not blasphemed the Holy Ghost (defined by Christianity as denying Salvation, because that is what the Holy Ghost testifies of) and are not prepared to enter into communion with God when we die because of imperfection-- we wait while God adjusts us further, which may cause us some degree of suffering.We have entered into an irrevocable covenant through baptism. He promises he will not abandon us however much we fail our end of that covenant.

So much the better if we comply with our end of it in this life, and even then we cannot do it without giving ourselves over to the Holy Ghost. How much can God perfect us in this manner? Thousand of Saints have shown us this, some of them most strongly in the past century. St. Damien may have not have been a perfect human being, but He was a perfect Christian, or perfect in Christ.

Padre Pio (St. Pio of Pietrelcina) helped the Lord heal thousands of people. My favorite involves a woman he prayed for but never met. A Bishop she knew requested the prayer. A doctor herself, she considered it a coincidence when she recovered from Cancer after this. Years later she attended a mass by Padre Pio, and he picked her out of a crowd. The Bishop who had sought the prayers became Pope John Paul II.

When people sought Padre Pio for Reconciliation (confession) and had a hard time speaking their sins, he told them. At least one person going to make confession with Padre Pio for the first time at his Abbey (nowhere near Rome) recognized him as the priest who took her confession at the Vatican, though Pio had been back in the Abbey at the time.

That all may sound incredulous, but as a Mormon I know you must believe that miracles are only done away because of unbelief. That is one thing that sheds doubt on the Book of Mormon validity. Moroni 8 in it affirms of the Book of Mormon records:

26…and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away… lds.org/scriptures/bofm/morm/8?lang=eng

That statement reflects the ecclesiastical environment of where Joseph Smith grew up, but not of the world, or even the rest of the U.S. – Catholics never stopped believing in miracles, and most other Christians never stopped believing either. So, according to the Book of Mormon, it should not have come forth.

 

[Peter_John]

Second Part:

According to Rev 5:10, we can become His kings and priests. Do you agree with that? I can’t understand how you simultaneously can have the common priesthood of the faithful and not hold the priesthood. I guess it doesn’t matter that much in the long run.

I’m still trying to get at what limit you think there is to God perfecting us…
As for following the Holy Ghost, take a look at Moroni 10:3-5.

I believe we are already his kings and priests. This does not mean we act in autonomy over realms of our own, but share in His Kingship and His priesthood. That is communion.

Actually Moroni is a good source do discuss personal perfection as well.

Moroni 10
32Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.
lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10?lang=eng

Notice the emphasis on Christ doing the perfecting, not on achieving personal perfection as a matter of personal effort. Also consider:

Jacob 4
7 Nevertheless, the Lord God showeth us our weakness that we may know that it is by his grace, and his great condescensions unto the children of men, that we have power to do these things.
lds.org/scriptures/bofm/jacob/4?lang=eng

and

Ether 12
27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my cgrace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/12?lang=eng

Notice that none of these verses say anything about willpower, or applying oneself, or taking effort to achieve perfection. they are all, about surrendering to the will of Christ and letting his grace fix us. yet, with all this witness from its most correct book, the LDS church teaches that:

2 Nephi 25
23For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.
lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/25?lang=eng

means that we have to do absolutely everything we can ourselves before we can benefit from grace. Since the other verses say that we cannot even tie our shoes to perfection, so to speak, without grace, that has to be a misinterpretation. The last verse clearly means that nothing we do matters without grace to begin with.

 

[Tony888]

As I understand it we are co-eternal with God the Father. We all (including God the Father) existed eternally as “intelligences”. God the Father acquired a “spirit body” some how, this has not been clearly articulated, creating spirit bodies seems to be a function of a Heavenly Father/Heavenly Mother team. He went on to acquire a physical body and progressed to exhaltation and became our God. We can follow the same scenario and be exhalted also.

Zaff you seem to be contradicting yourself.
Our spirits cannot be co-eternal with God the Father if we were in fact created by him. The LDS teach we were created and thus are not co-eternal.

You are speculating yourself, or referring to other speculators if you ascribe to know God progressed. What we do know is that Christ was deity before he assumed his physical body here on earth, and became our savior.
While Christ has a mortal body like you and me, we know he was not like us in two fundamental ways:

•    he was deity

•    he did not sin

The LDS do not teach either Christ or God the Father were ever men like you and I (just like Catholics do not believe Christ was just like us)

 

[Peter_John]

Finally,

As for following the Holy Ghost, take a look at Moroni 10:3-5.

Now as far as Moroni 10:3-5 goes, It is the passage missionaries use to affirm that the Book of Mormon promises that if they read it and pray to God asking if it is true, God will confirm that it is true. Is that what it says?

Moroni 10
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10?lang=eng

First, “these things” means different things in verses 3 and 4.

Verse 3 refers to the Bookof Mormon itself ( “when ye shall read these things”) Moroni exhorts his readers to “remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things.” This means the promise depends on associating what is read with the Bible, as much of what he says to remember is there.

“When ye shall receive these things” in verse 4, then, refers to both the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Moroni does not exhort readers to pray about the Book of Mormon. He asks them to pray about BOTH the Bible and the Book of Mormon. He also never exhorts to ask if they are true. He exhorts to ask if they are NOT true.

He also never promises that God will testify that they are true. He writes that God will “manifest the truth of it.” That means that God will manifest what is true in it. Verse 5 justifies that interpretation, because it says “by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.” Since some things are false, promising to know the truth of all things does not mean a promise to know that all things are true.

At the point in my life when I most sought guidance from the Holy Ghost in applying the Book of Mormon, which I did believe, into my life. The Holy Ghost led me quite unexpectedly to Catholicism. On the first visit I realized that I had been prejudiced against it my whole life, and that was not fair. On the second business the Holy Spirit made it clear to me in absolutely certain terms that Catholicism was true

I have found some things in the Book of Mormon clearly true:. For example the account of how the Bible was corrupted after it went from the Jews to the Gentiles in 1 Nephi 13 absolutely describes how the Greek Old Testament (which Catholics use and Protestants do not) was extracted from the Bible.
lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/13?lang=eng .

However, considering both the Bible and Book of Mormon together I find numerous false dogmas in the Book of Mormon. I do nto find the story of Nephi murdering Laban consistent with my inderstanding of God, but that is indecisive. I find the presentation of Nephi’s culture, and the culture carried into the Land of Promise inconsistent with Hebraic culture of the day. I find the account of the 12 Apostles coming down from heaven along with Jesus heretical, as Jesus said nobody came down from heaven but himself. Historical and cultural exegesis mark it as a product of 19th Century frontier American thought, not of a 7th Century B.C. originating society.

Mostly, I find Joseph Smith’s account of his First Vision inconsistent with the nature of God to which the Book of Mormon holds, and the Bible. Therefore, it can’t be true, because it came through Joseph Smith. It contains a lot of truths in it, but the book itself is a clever fabrication that took Joseph Smith about four years to dream up, and another 10 years for him and others to continue editing until it reached a consistent form. Since then others have furhter revised it in my own lifetime, not just altering typos, but substantially altering the meaning of passages some LDS leaders had considered key references.

Lest you consider me just some hater lashing out at the Chuch who never took it seriously anyway, I share this with you in case I have not before:
lds.org/new-era/1990/05/the-man-who-counted-stars?lang=eng&query=Man+Counted+Stars
My first published story.

 

[Peter_John]

Zaff you seem to be contradicting yourself.
Our spirits cannot be co-eternal with God the Father if we were in fact created by him. The LDS teach we were created and thus are not co-eternal.

You are speculating yourself, or referring to other speculators if you ascribe to know God progressed. What we do know is that Christ was deity before he assumed his physical body here on earth, and became our savior.
While Christ has a mortal body like you and me, we know he was not like us in two fundamental ways:

• he was deity
• he did not sin
  The LDS do not teach either Christ or God the Father were ever men like you and I (just like Catholics do not believe Christ was just like us)

Tony how long have you been LDS? We have had a lot of debate over whether LDS teach that or not, and it is clearly a recent backing -off of the idea that God used to be human. Now if you are couching your phrase with “just like us” meaning he was human, but not like us, he was still a man.

The way that Mormons believe Jesus different from the rest of us is very different from the way Catholics believe Jesus different from the rest of us. Mormons believe jesus is a sort of demi-God, whose father was physically God and mother physically human. Catholics believe that Jesus had no physical Father. That Mary his mother conceived miraculously through the power of the Holy Spirit the body that housed the Creator, both the Very Eternal father and the Son – the Father because he was the Creaator, and the Son because he took Flesh upon Himself. He could have chosen to create himself a body any way he wanted to. The fact that he chose to be born as any of the rest of us blesses all of humanity and makes his existence a part of ours, and through the Eucharist our existence can become a part of his.

 

[Tony888]

By this standard every LDS member who performs an ordinance while covering a sin or “in any degree of unrighteousness” has no authority already. It is actually a passage that voids many of the other “promisies” in the Doctrine and Covenants. Sit down and write out all the promises and all the conditions, and what you find is a standard impossible to meet as a human being, and since all promises hinge on those standards, nobody can claim the rewards of them. .

Peter, And you don’t feel repentance makes it possible?

That all may sound incredulous, but as a Mormon I know you must believe that miracles are only done away because of unbelief. That is one thing that sheds doubt on the Book of Mormon validity. Moroni 8 in it affirms of the Book of Mormon records:

I’m relatively new but have been taught that miracles as such come through the faith of the recipient and the will of God. Regardless of the purity/whishes/standing of the Priesthood holder, it is God’s will that matters.

 

[Pythons]

I think you’ve also missed an important distinction in the LDS doctrine. It is not that we become “like a god” or “like god”. Eternal progression is the teaching that men become an ACTUAL God of their own planet.

This is how it was described to me ( by a Mormon ) - there was also a planet which was idientified as the one God came from…
…They also teach and God came down as a real man and ‘bred’ Mary in the regular way.
…And that’s what caused Jesus to be born.

It is really alien stuff for sure!

 

[Peter_John]

This is how it was described to me ( by a Mormon ) - there was also a planet which was idientified as the one God came from…
…They also teach and God came down as a real man and ‘bred’ Mary in the regular way.
…And that’s what caused Jesus to be born.

It is really alien stuff for sure!

The God having sex with Mary is a myth. Some early leaders suggested it, but it never held doctrinally. They do believe that through the Holy Ghost God’s literla genetic material was miracvulouslymixed with Mary’s – but they did not have the words to describe it then as genetics did not exist. Some members, especially those with pioneer roots in the Church, still misunderstand it.

The other stuff is consistent.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter, And you don’t feel repentance makes it possible?

I’m relatively new but have been taught that miracles as such come through the faith of the recipient and the will of God. Regardless of the purity/whishes/standing of the Priesthood holder, it is God’s will that matters.

The way they are all worded, even considering repentance, have so many conditions that cancel things out the Doctrine and Covenants in the end promises only disappointment. That is a promise it can keep.

What you have been taught about miracles sounds accurate as I was taught it, but that is not necessarily what LDS scripture says. In either case, if the results depend on the faith of the individual seeking divine intervention regardless of the state of any priesthood holders involved, what point is there to the LDS priesthood?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaff you seem to be contradicting yourself.
Our spirits cannot be co-eternal with God the Father if we were in fact created by him. The LDS teach we were created and thus are not co-eternal.

You are speculating yourself, or referring to other speculators if you ascribe to know God progressed. What we do know is that Christ was deity before he assumed his physical body here on earth, and became our savior.
While Christ has a mortal body like you and me, we know he was not like us in two fundamental ways:

•    he was deity

•    he did not sin

The LDS do not teach either Christ or God the Father were ever men like you and I (just like Catholics do not believe Christ was just like us)

I didn’t say our spirits were co-eternal, I said our “intelligences” were co-eternal.
Even God the Father started out as an “intelligence”.

 

[Tony888]

In either case, if the results depend on the faith of the individual seeking divine intervention regardless of the state of any priesthood holders involved, what point is there to the LDS priesthood?

Good question, I would say the priesthood holder facilitates and focuses the faith of the individual seeking divine intervention. Thus, while not essential it can be very powerful.
The more a preisthood holder is guided by the holy spirit, the more effective one will be.

 

[Peter_John]

Good question, I would say the priesthood holder facilitates and focuses the faith of the individual seeking divine intervention. Thus, while not essential it can be very powerful.
The more a preisthood holder is guided by the holy spirit, the more effective one will be.

So in your opinion the LDS priesthood is like Dumbo’s feather in the movie. He doesn’t really need it, but if it is what it takes for him to fly it serves a purpose. Does that sound like what you said? Is that what LDS scripture says the priesthood is in Mormonism?

 

[KathleenGee]

What happened to the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?..after the last apostle died?

 

[Peter_John]

Zaff you seem to be contradicting yourself.
Our spirits cannot be co-eternal with God the Father if we were in fact created by him. The LDS teach we were created and thus are not co-eternal.

You may not have been in Mormonism long enough to learn that Joseph Smith taught that all of our intelligences are co-eternal with God. He teaches that these cannot be created. I have learned through these posts that the church has really started soft-pedalling these teachings, and the one about Jesus and Satan both having started out as our brothers. The serious withdrawal from emphasizing this seems to have begun with Mitt Romney’s posturing for the Presidency, though it was getting backed off from a little bit about 10 years before.

I can honestly say that these pages were the first place in my life i have ever heard LDS try to say that the Church doesn’t teach this. It used to be int “Gospel Principles” manual, but they took it out.

 

[rmcmullan]

Okay, so nobody can answer my main question. Just as I thought.

 

[Peter_John]

Okay, so nobody can answer my main question. Just as I thought.

If you do not feel it has been answered could you repeat it, as it is kind of hard for me to tell what your main question is. I have answered every question I have seen.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus Himself believed and called Himself the Bread from Heaven. The Old Testament provides us precursors as to the nature of how people of faith are to be divinized…they were directly fed manna from heaven.

Jesus Christ was born of a woman, and placed in an animal feeder.

Before the Last Supper, He introduced His many followers to the reality that He would become our nourishment through His body and blood. Most left Him. He gave the context at the Last Supper to those who were faithful to Him, and who likewise were open to the Holy Spirit dwelling in them to recognize Christ’s words.

It is also the reason why many non-Catholics cannot accept Peter as the Rock because they are still outside of the His Church because they are not fully open or in another sense, living in fullness of the Holy Spirit that makes us one, united under Peter today, the Papacy.

Christ is the High Priest, of the order of Melchizedek…the priest in Salem who had no beginning or end…not that he was a deity, but simply because Scripture did not elucidate on it. The Levites had a beginning and end through age requirements, and that they had to be of that tribe, as the rest of the Hebrew tribes fell into idolatry.

Christ began His priesthood and the foundation of the Mass as fulfillment of the Passover, when He gave context to memorial when He said, ‘Do this in memory of me.’ The Mass is the new form of worship, and it has been in effect since Pentecost.

I have shared before the documented testimony of St Justin the Martyr and the description of the Mass in how it was said in ancient Christianity in 155 AD. By then, most of Sacred Scripture was approved; the book of Hebrews took 200 years to assure it was divinely inspired. But the Jewish episcopal form of leadership was in place by then as well as the Apostles Creed.

You can do searches on the internet in regards to the liturgical life of Roman Christians underground in the catacombs.

The Eucharist has always been the source of our sanctification and holiness; Christ Himself is the Alpha and Omega of Christian perfection, a life lived of Him. He is our nourishment, and He is our end…the Word Made Flesh.

The Eucharist has been the practice of Christians for 2,000 years; only those who lost patience and faith, broke away through the Protestant fragmentation of faith, but so many of the main line Protestants are seeking and praying for restored unity, as well as leadership in the Orthodox Church seeking the same with the Roman Church.

Just to see the reunification of Christianity is a great progression in the sanctity of Christians. I hope and pray the same for the Mormon people. A two thousand year old documented, and apostolic witness transcends individual failures, even if they have been popes.

 

[Tony888]

This is how it was described to me ( by a Mormon ) - there was also a planet which was idientified as the one God came from…
…They also teach and God came down as a real man and ‘bred’ Mary in the regular way.
…And that’s what caused Jesus to be born.

It is really alien stuff for sure!

I would love for you to reference where the LDS teach we become a God of our own planet in the literal sense.

In the metaphorical sense, Catholic doctrine teaches you become God of your own mansion, btw.