LDS Doctrine of Eternal Progression/Catholic View

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I would love for you to reference where the LDS teach we become a God of our own planet in the literal sense.

In the metaphorical sense, Catholic doctrine teaches you become God of your own mansion, btw.
I would love to know who told you that. Catholicism teaches that we share in the nature of God’s existence, not that we become a God. We are resurrected with a body the nature of jesus’ body, but we do not and cannot become God, we can only share in the nature of God’s existence.

The LDS teaching that we would become God’s of our own planet I agree was based in traditional interpretation of the doctrine of Eternal Progression. I expect there is some reference to it on the Journal of Discourses, a multi volume set of Brigham Young’s teachings over 30 years thast he led the Church, which are so broad they include some non-doctrinal specualtion. Note that Brigham Young did not see it that way.

The late LDS Bruce R. McConkie has been quoted by a grandson of the late President Ezra Taft Benson as having affirmed that Brigham Young was wrong to have postulated an “Adam-God” doctrine: “We have no God but Adam.” McConkie also affirmedto the same person that he personally was never wrong about anything, though his assertion that the Catholic Church is the Church of the Devil mentioned in the Book of Mormon never surprised the first edition of “Mormon Doctrine”.

Among other things the Church used to formally

I would like to say that I know what you feel about being a Mormon, but I can’t since I was born into it and not a convert. I do know how I felt about being a Mormon, and beleive me when I say I despite trying to believe other things, I kept coming back to it. I never joined any other Church until I experienced Catholicism, and without seeking something else to believe, found I did.

I do know how much I felt I was helping those to whom I preached during my mission. I would not trade the experience for anything. I have no animosity towarrd the Mormon Church itself, and respect the faith of my family members who are still Mormon.

Having said all that, there are many things you do not yet know about Mormonism because they are not taught in the manuals and without access to all the Church publications you cannot track them down, though the internet is beginning to change all that…

In my own lifetime I have seen numerous things change. The revelation allowing Blacks people to hoild the priesthood was no big deal, because we always recognized that this would happen someday. However, a few years later they made several changes in the Book of Mormon, including changing a reference that said that someday the Lamanites (Indians) would be a “white and delightsome” people to being a “pure and delightsome” people. Now the Church teaches that it never was supposed to have the intent applied in the original version, despite the fact that numerous LDS leaders had taught it that way, even in General Conference addresses – including President Spencer W. Kimball.

I do not even have an issue with them changing things, but it is the trying to covewr up that they ever taught anything else.

I promise you I will never lie to you about what I was formally taught or about what the Church has actually taught in my lifetime. I was among the best at scripture chases in my high school seminary class. I have studied most of the Institute manuals, and numerous other manuals which I inherited from my grandfather who got his from Boyd K. Packer, Paul H. Dunn, and truman G. Madsen. I interpreted for Joseph B. Wirthlin in Araraquara, Brazil in 1983.

I have participated in LDS communities on four continents and in five U.S. states. many of the things that some current LDS now deny as church teachings in these pages were common enough that wherever you went you could converse with other members about them without having to explain anything or being accused of speculation. They were commonly understood, and often the topics of discourses when general authorites visited stake conferences.

I have too much respect for the religion which formed the basis of my personality to lie to you or anyone else about what has always been taught formally during my lifetime – and I think my posts here show that I rise to Mormonism’s defense on things I know are myths about its teachings. I have even, despite the fact I now consider Mormonism a Christian heresy, encouraged my nephew to serve a mission as long as it is what he really wants to do – but that he has to have his own reasons for doing it, not just do it as an obligation. This is because it is a wonderful experience in and of itself.

I also know that every ward in the country now has people who do not really believe the Church is literally true, but it is the basis of their culture as it was mine, so they continue being involved. Unlike me, they are able to honestly comply with its teachings. I honestly did not, despite my best efforts, and I never tried to hide this.

Anything I discuss here and present as valid LDS doctrine, I talk about with my relatives. They never feel a need to correct me on my understanding of LDS doctrine, and my brother-in-law has served on a bishopric, as did my uncle.

I recommend you read The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and if you are really into reading, Joesph Smith’s/B.H. roberts’ seven-volume History of the Church. I particularly recommend you look for the full text of the King Follett Discourse (King Follett was the man’s name, and it was a speech Joseph Smith gave at his funeral).

You do not need to read anti-Mormon literature to hear the doctrines that many church members on these pages deny. You only need to review the Church’s own official publications from before about 1985 – but particularly before 1960. Many of them they never outright denied, they just stopped including them in new manuals.
 
What happened to the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?..after the last apostle died?
LDS doctrine is that the Lord withdrew all of his authority from the earth. People were still inspired by the Light of Christ, but… and then there were three Nephite apostles from the Book of Mormon who are supposed to never have died, and many LDS leaders maintain that John the Beloved never actually died either – so in that case they argue that it was never really “gone”. The church itself just was not organized.
 
I would love to know who told you that. Catholicism teaches that we share in the nature of God’s existence, not that we become a God. We are resurrected with a body the nature of jesus’ body, but we do not and cannot become God, we can only share in the nature of God’s existence.
Peter, I’m quote mining, which is exactly what people do to attack my faith
  • I believe it is in John where the bible clearly states God has reserved a place for his faithful. In many of the bible translations, this place is called a Mansion
  • In the CCC par 460, it clearly says Christ became man so that man might become God.
Put these two Catholic teachings together and my statement is validated. I’ve shown as much integrity as people who attack the LDS faith with their quote mining. How does it feel to be told what you believe?
 
Peter, I’m quote mining, which is exactly what people do to attack my faith
  • I believe it is in John where the bible clearly states God has reserved a place for his faithful. In many of the bible translations, this place is called a Mansion
  • In the CCC par 460, it clearly says Christ became man so that man might become God.
Put these two Catholic teachings together and my statement is validated.
So no one told it to you. You made it up as an attack on Catholicism. Is that why you’ve come to this forum?
 
So no one told it to you. You made it up as an attack on Catholicism. Is that why you’ve come to this forum?
No such luck Stephen, I provided a teaching parallel and was completely open about my sources.

I am sad you missed the teaching parallel though.
 
After discussions, the missionaries said, “don’t take our word for it, do as James 1:5-6directs and ask God if it’s true”.

I Have always appriciated that I could “ask God” and (not the pastor or priest) He always answered. Sometimes righ away, sometimes after I did all I could to study it out for myself. cb
 
I didn’t miss your parallel. I was asking you to affirm it and you did. Thanks
But I wasn’t attacking the Catholic faith. I only referenced offical Catholic doctrine.

And if you read my note, I even said it was metaphorical (which I stand by is valid)
 
But I wasn’t attacking the Catholic faith. I only referenced offical Catholic doctrine.
You were not referencing Catholic Doctrine; you were inventing Doctrine and then claiming it was Catholic. The beauty of being Catholic is Catholic Doctrine can be explained and defended without attacking Mormonism. You have yet to explain Mormon Doctrine without attacking Catholicism. Try responding to post #2 which is a clear explanation of the difference between Catholic and Mormon Doctrine.
 
This has been a very interesting discussion.

Some of my in-laws are Mormon. I read these threads so that I can better understand Mormonism.

Even though I am a convert to Catholicism, there is just no way that while I was on my journey that I could ever have believed in Mormonism. It’s a man made religion and not even Christian, even though Mormons would like us to believe that they are.

Doesn’t mean there aren’t some very good people in Mormonism but, I find it so hard to believe that they actually take it seriously. It truly makes no sense.

It’s reminds me of Scientology. Made up from beginning to end.
 
You were not referencing Catholic Doctrine; you were inventing Doctrine and then claiming it was Catholic. The beauty of being Catholic is Catholic Doctrine can be explained and defended without attacking Mormonism. You have yet to explain Mormon Doctrine without attacking Catholicism. Try responding to post #2 which is a clear explanation of the difference between Catholic and Mormon Doctrine.
This reminds me of something I was given while helping with the RCIA here in Utah.

“The Catholic church is not built on the fall of another church. The Catholic Church was established by Jesus because we are all fallen” RH

I have been blessed to help inquiring Mormons learn about the 2000 year old Apostolic Catholic Church. We really do not have to put down their faith, rather just speak about Jesus and His Catholic Church. I wish the LDS here would ask more questions about our faith while keeping an open mind. I wish Catholics here would stop the kind of posts I see where some Mormons are put into a position of defending their beliefs.

In Christ
Rich
 
Yes, but it differs from Mormonism at foundational points. I will explain the central difference first, so that what follows will be clear. All spiritual progress is accomplished in Catholicism through grace as an absolute first principle, whereas in Mormonism personal effort is logically and actually prior to grace. Mormon leaders have often taught that “grace alone” is a morally irresponsible doctrine, whereby men seek to place the burden of their own salvation upon God rather than themselves. This criticism requires a presupposition that free human acts require separation from God, for if God moves the will by grace, he is forcing the human being to obey him. Yet this treats God as an extrinsic principle, acting on man from without, rather than an ex nihilo creator, acting from within, using the properties of human nature itself, creatively, so that God literally moves man’s free will. This is an inconceivable proposition for a materialist Mormon, but not for a Catholic. The Mormon criticism as usual assumes materialism in its interpretation of classical Christian doctrine, resulting in an improper and abusive critique. This leads Mormons to believe that they hold a monopoly on believing in personal effort and progress, since they have never understood what the alternative to their own theology actually is.

In the Catholic view, human beings grow in sanctity through freely receiving the grace of God. Good works done as a result of grace yield merit by participating in the cross of Christ. God responds to this merit by moving man’s free will with further grace, resulting n a further attainment of holiness. The ultimate objective in the process is to attain a state of sanctity that imitates Christ. In heaven, man becomes so permeated by grace that he resembles God, not because he has the same nature as God, but for the opposite reason - because grace itself, not part of our nature, brings with it an infusion of the divine nature into us over and above the limited potential of a human nature in itself.
Raised Mormon, this is the kind of theology that I was attracted to. Your writing hit home for me. Here is a writing from Father Raoul who passed away in 1958. I think it is appropriate as to the view of progression. Another way to say what you have written. if you don’t mind.

Our Lord did not come for the sake of those who are well, but for those who are in need. The soul that is lost interest Him far more than the ninety-nine that are just; the venturesome lamb that has fallen into the pit, far more that the flock that has returned dutifully home; the coin that has rolled behind the furniture, far more than the fortune of the cash-box.

His interest is in the prodigals: Mary Magdalene, the women taken in adultery, Zacchaeus the publican, Simon the Pharisee, Barabbas, and His companions on the cross. The preferences of all Christians should be of the same kind. But what integrity this demands, what moral beauty, what sanctity! Some, perhaps, may be tempted to escape the corrosive or weakening effect of such surroundings by avoiding to much contact with the masses, by seeking only the company of their friends, of those who think like them and to whom they feel more readily attracted. It is so much more pleasant to consort with those who are like you, and with whom you have ideals and interest in common.

Such a method is disastrous. If the leaven is to act upon the mass, it must be mingled with it. If it is separate from the mass, it forgets its proper task. It is a leading axiom in Catholic action not to remove good elements from the surroundings in which they exist, but rather to sanctify them so that they may serve to elevate and improve their fellows. In order to act effectively upon one’s surroundings, one must live in those surroundings; and, given the necessary virtue and power of action, the closer the contact, the greater the influence will be.

It is not literally true that is has been said of us: “You are gods,” and that we are to become “sons of God”? Let us give to these expressions their full Christian meaning. First and foremost, the baptized must learn to appreciate the incomparable privileges they have received by the sacrament which, in making them Christians, has brought the Blessed Trinity to dwell in their souls, and given them power to live the divine life, if only they will, and so long as they will. Let us lift up our heads and bear proudly the proud dignity of our Baptism.

How few of the baptized appreciate the essence of all revelations: that God dwells in the man who is in the state of grace? This is the campaign that is most urgently needed: to help each and every one to Realize fully, perhaps for the first time, the divine dignity that Baptism confers by engrafting us upon Christ Himself making us a living member of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, communicating to us the very life of the Blessed Trinity, making us partners in the royal priesthood of Christ and His Church, uniting us in a common kinship with all our baptized brethren by this spiritual solidarity, which is the Communion of Saints, consecrating us as living chalices, as living temples to the personal and social worship of the true God.
 
Yes, but it differs from Mormonism at foundational points. I will explain the central difference first, so that what follows will be clear. All spiritual progress is accomplished in Catholicism through grace as an absolute first principle, whereas in Mormonism personal effort is logically and actually prior to grace. Mormon leaders have often taught that “grace alone” is a morally irresponsible doctrine, whereby men seek to place the burden of their own salvation upon God rather than themselves. This criticism requires a presupposition that free human acts require separation from God, for if God moves the will by grace, he is forcing the human being to obey him. Yet this treats God as an extrinsic principle, acting on man from without, rather than an ex nihilo creator, acting from within, using the properties of human nature itself, creatively, so that God literally moves man’s free will. This is an inconceivable proposition for a materialist Mormon, but not for a Catholic. The Mormon criticism as usual assumes materialism in its interpretation of classical Christian doctrine, resulting in an improper and abusive critique. This leads Mormons to believe that they hold a monopoly on believing in personal effort and progress, since they have never understood what the alternative to their own theology actually is.

In the Catholic view, human beings grow in sanctity through freely receiving the grace of God. Good works done as a result of grace yield merit by participating in the cross of Christ. God responds to this merit by moving man’s free will with further grace, resulting n a further attainment of holiness. The ultimate objective in the process is to attain a state of sanctity that imitates Christ. In heaven, man becomes so permeated by grace that he resembles God, not because he has the same nature as God, but for the opposite reason - because grace itself, not part of our nature, brings with it an infusion of the divine nature into us over and above the limited potential of a human nature in itself.
 
Yes, but it differs from Mormonism at foundational points. I will explain the central difference first, so that what follows will be clear. All spiritual progress is accomplished in Catholicism through grace as an absolute first principle, whereas in Mormonism personal effort is logically and actually prior to grace. Mormon leaders have often taught that “grace alone” is a morally irresponsible doctrine, whereby men seek to place the burden of their own salvation upon God rather than themselves. This criticism requires a presupposition that free human acts require separation from God, for if God moves the will by grace, he is forcing the human being to obey him. Yet this treats God as an extrinsic principle, acting on man from without, rather than an ex nihilo creator, acting from within, using the properties of human nature itself, creatively, so that God literally moves man’s free will. This is an inconceivable proposition for a materialist Mormon, but not for a Catholic. The Mormon criticism as usual assumes materialism in its interpretation of classical Christian doctrine, resulting in an improper and abusive critique. This leads Mormons to believe that they hold a monopoly on believing in personal effort and progress, since they have never understood what the alternative to their own theology actually is.

In the Catholic view, human beings grow in sanctity through freely receiving the grace of God. Good works done as a result of grace yield merit by participating in the cross of Christ. God responds to this merit by moving man’s free will with further grace, resulting n a further attainment of holiness. The ultimate objective in the process is to attain a state of sanctity that imitates Christ. In heaven, man becomes so permeated by grace that he resembles God, not because he has the same nature as God, but for the opposite reason - because grace itself, not part of our nature, brings with it an infusion of the divine nature into us over and above the limited potential of a human nature in itself.
 
Excellent overview Soren 1! Permit me to add some specifics, In reading the official books of the LDS Church I’ve learned that they believe in three levels of glory after death, judgement, and resurrection: Telestial, Terrestrial, and Celestial. There is also “The Second Death” reserved for Satan, his followers and those who have left the Mormon Church and become apostate and rebellious.
  1. Telestial - For the wicked, ungodly, and sensual. Mormons believe that most people will end up on this lowest level of the 3 Kingdoms (see Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 778).
  2. Terrestrial - For righteous and honorable people, who did good but did not accept Mormonism. Many members of the Mormon Church, who were not as dedicated as they could have been, will also go here. (see Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 784).
  3. Celestial - Highest level of the Celestial Kingdom is for worthy Mormons who have been married in the Mormon temple. "This full salvation is obtained in and through the continuation of the family unit in eternity and those who obtain it are gods. (D&C 131:1-4;132) (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).
Mormon Milton R. Hunter said:
“The crowning Gospel ordinance requisite for Godhood is celestial marriage. The doctrine of celestial marriage, as taught and practiced in the Church of Jesus Christ today, means temple marriage…Marriage is not only a righteous institution, but obedience to this law is absolutely necessary in order to obtain the highest exaltation in the kingdom of God.” (The Gospel Through the Ages, pp. 118- 119).

This highest level of salvation is called “exaltation,” “godhood,” and “eternal life.” Concerning this latter term, it is worth pointing out that such verses as John 3:16, 5:24, and 1 John 5:13 speak of “eternal life” being free, received by simple faith in Christ, and not worked for.

Once obtaining this full salvation, the cycle then repeats itself again. Joseph Fielding Smith (10th president of the LDS) explains this:

“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom…To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 2, p. 48).

Mormons believe that this process has been going on always:

Brigham Young, the 2nd president of the Church, said: “He [God] is our Father - the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods…” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333).

Heber C. Kimball (a more recent president of LDS) said:
“…then we shall go back to our Father and God, who is connected with one who is still farther back; and this Father is connected with one still further back, and so on…” (Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19).

In a famous statement which summarizes eternal progression, Mormon Lorenzo Snow said:
“As man now is, God once was; As God now is, man may become.” (Teachings of Lorenzo Snow, p. 2).

In contrast to endless generations of past god’s and the possibility of others becoming god’s, the Bible clearly declares that there is only one God. This God is the only true God, with none before Him and He will have none after Him. For example, here are some passages just in one book:

Isaiah 44:6 (KJV): “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”

Isaiah 45:22 (KJV): “Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”

Isaiah 46:9 (KJV): “Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.”
 
Wow, I am really glad that so many people here have found my post helpful. I had actually forgotten about this thread, and then I came back to find people still quoting my original post. I’m thankful that the Lord helped me express myself with enough clarity to be of assistance.
 
I have not read the entire thread here, but I read the first few and the last few and I have noticed that there is a slight misconception about what Mormons believe about eternal progression.

Let me summarize as briefly and wholly as I can.

We believe that our highest goal is to gain eternal life, the greatest of all the gifts of God. This gift is only received through the grace of Jesus Christ. It cannot be achieved by any other name or means. We believe that eternal life, by definition, is a life like God has and that we may be heirs with Christ of all things. (see Romans 8:32 and Revelation 21:7)

We believe that we are literal sons and daughters of God. We believe that he is our eternal father and we have an inherent potential to become like him, just as a newborn prince has the potential to become a king.

God has five primary characteristics:
  1. He is Immortal
  2. He is Perfectly Good and no unclean thing can dwell in his presence
  3. He is a Perfect Father - a [pro]creator of children and a creator of worlds
  4. He has Perfect Knowledge of all things
  5. He enjoys Eternal Life - a life with all glory, all power, all might, and all dominion
Before this life every person who is born on earth had a desire to become like God. When man (and woman) were first created they enjoyed the following:
  1. Immortality
  2. The Presence of God - He was with them and spoke to them in the Garden of Eden
Man was presented with commandments and given the ability to choose. Man transgressed one of the commandments and was no longer worthy to dwell in the presence of God being subject to sin. Because of his transgression, man also became mortal–subject to death. Through the fall of man, however, mankind was granted the following blessings:
  1. The ability to procreate
  2. Knowledge of Good and Evil
Through his atonement, Jesus Christ overcame sin, death, and the effects of the fall of Adam for all men, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:22) Through Christ, every human being will be given back what was lost through the fall of man:
  1. Immortality - all will be resurrected
  2. The Presence of God - all will return to God’s presence to be judged of their works
If we are guilty of sin and have not allowed Christ’s grace to cleanse us, we will be cast out of God’s presence again for our own deeds, not for Adam’s transgression. This judgment is a gift from Jesus Christ.

Through his atonement, Jesus has also improved upon the gifts of mortality:
  1. Eternal Families - Christ has made it possible for families to be together forever
  2. Perfect Knowledge - Through Christ we may attain perfect knowledge of all things
Finally, if we simply believe in him, love him, and keep his commandments, Christ has promised us the greatest of all gifts:
  1. Eternal Life - a life like God has in glory, honor, majesty, and power
This is not a gift received through our own merits. All Jesus requires is that we come unto him and receiving of his grace “without money and without price.” (Isaiah 55:1) We come unto him by joining ourselves to his church through baptism and obeying his word. When we are willing to forsake all and follow him (Matthew 19:21), he will lead us to eternal life.

The last thought I will leave with you is that God the Father’s title in the original Hebrew was Elohim, a plural word which being interpreted means “the gods” or “the head of the gods”. The term God is properly, though not exclusively, defined as a divine family unit. That is how a Son and a Father can be one. That is how we can become heirs of all that God has. That is how we can be equal with God and still submit to him. (see Philippians 2:6) That is how both men and women can become gods but only together as a family. That is how there can be many gods and one true God at the same time.

Many have correctly observed that Mormons are “all about the family.” This is absolutely true. The grand secret of Mormonism is not that we arrogantly believe in the deification of ourselves individually, but that we believe in the exaltation of the human family and claim the authority to seal or bind worthy families to God for eternity.

“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matthew 16:19)

To him be all glory, honor, and holiness forever.
 
A lot in there you might want to break out into several new threads. Though, most of it has been discussed to no end.
 
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