LDS Doctrine: the Sources and Scope

[Todd520]

If LDS believe the Catholic Church is apostate why do they quote from a Catholic book?

Catholics taking credit for assemblying the bible is one thing,
but shame on you for believing YOU wrote the word of God

And, where does it state God gave the Catholics an exclusive franchise on ‘his word’

 

[SirThomasMore]

Catholics taking credit for assemblying the bible is one thing,
but shame on you for believing YOU wrote the word of God

And, where does it state God gave the Catholics an exclusive franchise on ‘his word’

lol…nice deflection. Catholics believe God directed them as to what Books to include in the Bible.

LDS believe that, at the time the Bible was being compiled, there was total apostasy.

So, why do the Mormons use a book compiled by the Great and Abominable Church during a total apostacy?

That was the intent of the question you dodged.

 

[lax16]

Catholics taking credit for assemblying the bible is one thing,
but shame on you for believing YOU wrote the word of God

And, where does it state God gave the Catholics an exclusive franchise on ‘his word’

Where did anyone claim that the Catholic Church wrote the Bible???

Well, seeing as how it was the Catholics defending the faith from heretics, I guess we can claim it was the Catholics who kept error from creeping in to Jesus’ Words. Who else was around back then, Todd? Not the Mormons or the Protestants.

Give credit where credit is due but claiming that Catholics think they wrote the Word of God…???

ps - I would say Jesus (the owner) did start an exclusive franchise with Peter as the boss. And you must know where God stated that!

 

[dianaiad]

Where did anyone claim that the Catholic Church wrote the Bible???

That claim is implicit in 1holycatholic’s post, lax.

Well, seeing as how it was the Catholics defending the faith from heretics, I guess we can claim it was the Catholics who kept error from creeping in to Jesus’ Words. Who else was around back then, Todd? Not the Mormons or the Protestants.

OH, how to answer that one…

lax,…CHRISTIANS were around early, and remember, we’re Mormons. We don’t think you DID keep error from creeping in. Neither, by the way, do the Protestants, or they wouldn’t have protested.

As to whether Catholics have been perfect at this…though y’all have been very, very, very GOOD at it, I’m going to have to mention the Johanine comma…

Give credit where credit is due but claiming that Catholics think they wrote the Word of God…???

I personally don’t think that “Catholics” (as a church) think any such thing. I don’t think that Catholics as a group of people think any such thing. 1holycatholic, however, by telling Mormons that we don’t have a right to quote from the bible because it is a ‘Catholic book,’ certainly seems to be making that claim. After all, if it is the Word of God, then anybody may believe in it and quote from it–without being Catholic, specifically.

ps - I would say Jesus (the owner) did start an exclusive franchise with Peter as the boss. And you must know where God stated that!

Indeed…though there is some difference of opinion as to what ‘the rock’ actually is.

 

[1holycatholic]

I personally don’t think that “Catholics” (as a church) think any such thing. I don’t think that Catholics as a group of people think any such thing. 1holycatholic, however, by telling Mormons that we don’t have a right to quote from the bible because it is a ‘Catholic book,’ certainly seems to be making that claim. After all, if it is the Word of God, then anybody may believe in it and quote from it–without being Catholic, specifically.

I didn’t say that you couldn’t quote from the Bible. I pointed out the hypocrisy of LDS doing so given their insistence that the Catholic Church (from which the Bible proceeds :yup is apostate.

I didn’t even mention the fact that the LDS don’t even quote from the complete Bible. They prefer the one used by Protestants who tossed out seven books that had always been in the Bible since the Canon of Scripture was infallibly defined by the Catholic Church in the late fourth century. That would be too much. :hypno:

 

[Returning_Home]

If BY confessed to preaching false principles, did he provide a list of the false principles he preached. If not, how do we discerne the true principles from the false principles? Or does it come down to a matter of opinion to what are the true principles and false principles? Why would God allow his prophet to teach falsehoods?

I gather you noticed that Diana didn’t bother to answer the question, going on the offensive instead. She hoped you wouldn’t notice, I guess.

The answers are:

1. No, I don’t believe he ever made a list of his false teachings, though we know that’s just about all of them. The church considers the Journal of Discourses (JOD) to be primarily the opinions of Young, even though there’s no real standards by which we can evaluate the statements of any given prophet as being right or wrong.
2. Mormons don’t trouble themselves with any such discernment; they pick and choose what they like from any given text and if it confirms their point, they will easily consider it correct. If you or I use those same parts of the texts in a way that shows Mormonism to be false, they will consider them incorrect. This is the mercurial nature of modern Mormon apologetics.
3. It’s all a matter of opinion because Mormonism has no basis in reality; Mormons believe in Mormonism because they want to or because they’ve been deceived, not because it’s factual.
4. He doesn’t, and this is the reason that neither Brigham Young nor Joseph Smith before him ever made a correct prophecy, and thus weren’t speaking for God. They blew a lot of hot air, but were never right.

 

[dianaiad]

I didn’t say that you couldn’t quote from the Bible. I pointed out the hypocrisy of LDS doing so given their insistence that the Catholic Church (from which the Bible proceeds :yup is apostate.

The standard interpretation of being called a hypocrite is that the person shouldn’t be doing whatever it is that makes him a hypocrite…in this case, that Mormons should not, or ‘don’t have the right to’ quote from the bible. Simply asking us why we ARE doing so, as if it is an affront to you that we do, is ample proof of this.

I didn’t even mention the fact that the LDS don’t even quote from the complete Bible. They prefer the one used by Protestants who tossed out seven books that had always been in the Bible since the Canon of Scripture was infallibly defined by the Catholic Church in the late fourth century. That would be too much. :hypno:

You are quite right. We do prefer the King James…and even then we realize that there are goofs in it. (Johanine comma, again, anybody?) But then we are not now, and have never claimed to be, biblical inerrantists.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Keep in mind, Diana has already admitted that LDS “prophets” do not receive revelations

 

[Todd520]

lax
When you called the bible a Catholic book, it was clear (to me) you took responsibility for alot more than pulling together the completed Holy Scripture of other writers.

It is definitely a Catholic assembled book, and the effort by our ancestors is much appreciated.

 

[a2dynamite]

Hey I’m just a little Catholic girl from Utah unfortunately where you think would be the most Mormon spot in the world, the LDS don’t even know their own religion, which is very sad. some common answers to ‘tough’ questions are “well, it all works out in the end,” and “I guess we just can’t know that until the veil is lifted… I don’t know.” These are NOT answers. God gives us answers to EVERYTHING. He has NOTHING to hide from us, because He loves us and we are His children. With faith and scripture, there is absolute answer to everything. But apparently not in the LDS Church, unless you give me the answers?:

WHY would God send Jesus, GOD, to earth to give the Word and die for our sins, if EVERYTHING He did was to fail 20 yrs later?! um… He wouldn’t. Because God ain’t stupid; He’s love, and if He promises the Word, it will remain.
…THEN Mormons believe the Church was ‘reestablished’ by a mere man? Maybe more believable if it would have been a woman!! (just kidding )

I know this one is a sensitive topic, but apparently my Mormon friends believe that God has a wife, and that with him, gives life to the pre-earth children of God; He doesn’t like to talk about her because He’s afraid people will disrespect Her?!? IS this true? WHY aren’t Mormon men following His example, being overprotective, and hiding THEIR wives? If God is Love, He is truth, the whole truth and nothin but the truth! If she’s OUR mother, SHOULDN’T He let us know? If He barely mentions her a few times (I don’t know if He does or not according to Mormons) then it’s like saying she isn’t important. wouldn’t that be a GREAT example to set for “Families are Forever.”

Also Mormons are spreading a lie with “Families are Forever.” There are, in Mormon belief, THREE levels of heaven. And the chances that an entire family will go to the same level are slim That’s a cruel thing to teach. You could acknowledge as Catholics do that ALL saints in heaven will be a great and perfect family!

I also love this (I copied it from somewhere else on the site). “Gordon B. Hinckley, published in the San Francisco Chronicle on April 13, 1997. When asked: ‘Don’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?’ Hinckley demurred. 'I wouldn’t say that. There’s a little couplet coined, ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’ Now, that’s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.”’
Um HELLO!? you were the PROPHET. that “little coined couplet” you kinda make sound insignificant is (according to you) HOLY SCRIPTURE. You don’t know much about ‘deep theology’?!? please read above, President Hinckley.

So do Mormons believe God is One, or separate beings with a linked spirit? it can be answered and EITHER WAY in Mormon scripture.

 

[1holycatholic]

lax
When you called the bible a Catholic book, it was clear (to me) you took responsibility for alot more than pulling together the completed Holy Scripture of other writers.

It is definitely a Catholic assembled book, and the effort by our ancestors is much appreciated.

The New Testament was committed to writing by “Apostles and apostolic men” - all members of Christ’s Catholic Church.

And yes, you are correct that the Catholic Church infallibly defined the Canon of Scripture.

 

[Todd520]

I also love this (I copied it from somewhere else on the site). “Gordon B. Hinckley, published in the San Francisco Chronicle on April 13, 1997. When asked: ‘Don’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?’ Hinckley demurred. 'I wouldn’t say that. There’s a little couplet coined, ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’ Now, that’s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.”’
Um HELLO!? you were the PROPHET. that “little coined couplet” you kinda make sound insignificant is (according to you) HOLY SCRIPTURE. You don’t know much about ‘deep theology’?!? please read above, President Hinckley…

Well, if he says the couplet wasn’t divine revelation then I suggest we believe him.

So do Mormons believe God is One, or separate beings with a linked spirit? it can be answered and EITHER WAY in Mormon scripture

Actually, I think you just described the Catholic Trinity of three persons with one linked or common spirit.

 

[PaulDupre]

ParkerD:

Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

The “gods” here, as always in the bible, are the false gods of paganism. God is the one judge, while false gods have no power. The bible often juxtaposes the true God against the false gods of the nations.

Mark 12:35 And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37 David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?

The Father speaking to the Son, inviting Him to sit at the Father’s right hand, which He does. Come on, Parker.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

The “dragon”, also called the “accuser” (the translation of the name Satan), is Lucifer the devil, who indeed was cast down from heaven to the earth, as the bible says. LDS may consider Satan a god, but Christians do not. He is an angel, and nothing more.

Peace to all. Christ lives, and council is a divine pattern.

Nothing you have posted here points to a council of the gods. False idols and Satan do not a council of gods make.

 

[a2dynamite]

Well, if he says the couplet wasn’t divine revelation then I suggest we believe him.

No thanks I don’t want to believe him. It was spoken by fifth LDS President Lorenzo Snow, so you’re asking me to believe one Prophet over another.
According to mrm.com (actually a Mormon website): “Besides correctly illustrating the Latter-day Saint teaching that God was once a mere mortal man, this couplet also declares that man has the potential to become God! According to LDS theology, eternal life is synonymous with godhood. In the words of LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, ‘Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation … They are gods.’ (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 237).”
You can read through the whole article at mrm.org/lorenzo-snow-couplet but I find it questionable that a central belief in LDS faith is not understood by its own prophet. and no, I’m not saying this little quote proves the entire LDS religion false. But it certainly is a factor.

Actually, I think you just described the Catholic Trinity of three persons with one linked or common spirit.

fyi I like this for an explanation of the Mystery of the Holy Trinity, but you can find many at catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp: “But in the one true God and Trinity it is naturally true not only that God is one but also that he is a Trinity, for the reason that the true God himself is a Trinity of Persons and one in nature. Through this natural unity the whole Father is in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, and the whole Holy Spirit, too, is in the Father and in the Son. None of these is outside any of the others; because no one of them precedes any other of them in eternity or exceeds any other in greatness, or is superior to any other in power” (The Rule of Faith 4 c. A.D. 523).

Could you answer my other questions? I’m getting offline but I’ll check back and see if there is a satisfactory reply later and I’ll respond too. Try backing up your answers next time, I’m a logical person.

 

[a2dynamite]

Well, if he says the couplet wasn’t divine revelation then I suggest we believe him.

No thanks I don’t want to believe him. It was spoken by fifth LDS President Lorenzo Snow, so you’re asking me to believe one Prophet over another.
According to mrm.com (actually a Mormon website): “Besides correctly illustrating the Latter-day Saint teaching that God was once a mere mortal man, this couplet also declares that man has the potential to become God! According to LDS theology, eternal life is synonymous with godhood. In the words of LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, ‘Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation … They are gods.’ (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 237).”
You can read through the whole article at mrm.org/lorenzo-snow-couplet but I find it questionable that a central belief in LDS faith is not understood by its own prophet. and no, I’m not saying this little quote proves the entire LDS religion false. But it certainly is a factor.

Actually, I think you just described the Catholic Trinity of three persons with one linked or common spirit.

fyi I like this for an explanation of the Mystery of the Holy Trinity, but you can find many at catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp: “But in the one true God and Trinity it is naturally true not only that God is one but also that he is a Trinity, for the reason that the true God himself is a Trinity of Persons and one in nature. Through this natural unity the whole Father is in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, and the whole Holy Spirit, too, is in the Father and in the Son. None of these is outside any of the others; because no one of them precedes any other of them in eternity or exceeds any other in greatness, or is superior to any other in power” (The Rule of Faith 4 c. A.D. 523).

Could you answer my other questions? I’m getting offline but I’ll check back and see if there is a satisfactory reply later and I’ll respond too. Try backing up your answers next time, I’m a logical person.

 

[ParkerD]

1. The “gods” here, as always in the bible, are the false gods of paganism. God is the one judge, while false gods have no power. The bible often juxtaposes the true God against the false gods of the nations.
2. The Father speaking to the Son, inviting Him to sit at the Father’s right hand, which He does. Come on, Parker.
3. The “dragon”, also called the “accuser” (the translation of the name Satan), is Lucifer the devil, who indeed was cast down from heaven to the earth, as the bible says. LDS may consider Satan a god, but Christians do not. He is an angel, and nothing more.

Paul,

1. I had assumed you would have been familiar with the following teaching of the Savior:

John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

So it would seem you think the Savior was saying some strange thing about pagan gods by using the passage from Psalms to make His point. I disagree wholeheartedly.

1. Yes, in the pre-mortal council in Heaven. That was a council–the Father talking to the Son. That is what a council means.
2. Indeed, of course you know LDS don’t consider “Satan a god” (how long were you LDS? three days?), but the situation described by John shows that there was an “accuser” of “brethren” and that he “accused them before our God day and night.”

That shows there was verbal interaction going on among “brethren” and that Michael the archangel was involved and others were involved. The verbal interaction is a form of “council”, and the eventual outcome is that the dragon was cast out of Heaven.

Here is the picture: God and Christ are the Gods in council. Michael is there (not as a god, but as the archangel. Lucifer is there (as an angel of light before he rebels). Lucifer rebels against the council. There is “war in heaven.” Lucifer is cast down to earth.

 

[Todd520]

, this couplet also declares that man has the potential to become God! According to LDS theology, eternal life is synonymous with godhood. In the words of LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, ‘Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation … They are gods.’ (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 237)."

A2dynamite, read down the subforum page and you will see my thread discussing the CATHOLIC doctrine that the soul will/can become God, as taught in the Catholic Catechism. Although there are real differences, both faiths believe that fundamental statement - man may become God.

fyi I like this for an explanation of the Mystery of the Holy Trinity, but you can find many at catholic.com/library/Trinity.asp: “But in the one true God and Trinity it is naturally true not only that God is one but also that he is a Trinity, for the reason that the true God himself is a Trinity of Persons and one in nature. Through this natural unity the whole Father is in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, and the whole Holy Spirit, too, is in the Father and in the Son. None of these is outside any of the others; because no one of them precedes any other of them in eternity or exceeds any other in greatness, or is superior to any other in power” (The Rule of Faith 4 [c. A.D. 523).

I appreciate your description but prefer the ability to grasp the simplifed version - three distinct persons in one nature.
This contrasts with the LDS version - three distinct persons in one purpose.
There are legitamite differences when you develop definitions of ‘nature’ and ‘persons’
[/quote]

 

[dianaiad]

Hey I’m just a little Catholic girl from Utah unfortunately where you think would be the most Mormon spot in the world, the LDS don’t even know their own religion, which is very sad. some common answers to ‘tough’ questions are “well, it all works out in the end,” and “I guess we just can’t know that until the veil is lifted… I don’t know.” These are NOT answers.

I dunno, it kinda reminds me of the common answer I get from Catholics of,“it’s a mystery.”

You need to understand that disagreement with our beliefs isn’t the same thing as OUR not knowing what they are.

God gives us answers to EVERYTHING.

DOES He? Ok, what DOES happen to unbaptized infants? Chapter and verse, please.

He has NOTHING to hide from us, because He loves us and we are His children.

That’s quite true. However, ‘not having anything to hide’ doesnt mean that we understand everything He has to tell us, does it? Or are you God, that you are, with HIm, omniscient and able to understand all the mysteries?

With faith and scripture, there is absolute answer to everything.

I’ll repeat a question. What DOES happen to unbaptized infants?

But apparently not in the LDS Church, unless you give me the answers?:

WHY would God send Jesus, GOD, to earth to give the Word and die for our sins, if EVERYTHING He did was to fail 20 yrs later?

He wouldn’t. Doesn’t it relieve your mind to know that we don’t believe, or teach, that?

! um… He wouldn’t. Because God ain’t stupid; He’s love, and if He promises the Word, it will remain.
…THEN Mormons believe the Church was ‘reestablished’ by a mere man? Maybe more believable if it would have been a woman!! (just kidding )

Actually, we don’t believe that, either.

I know this one is a sensitive topic, but apparently my Mormon friends believe that God has a wife, and that with him, gives life to the pre-earth children of God; He doesn’t like to talk about her because He’s afraid people will disrespect Her?!? IS this true? WHY aren’t Mormon men following His example, being overprotective, and hiding THEIR wives? If God is Love, He is truth, the whole truth and nothin but the truth! If she’s OUR mother, SHOULDN’T He let us know? If He barely mentions her a few times (I don’t know if He does or not according to Mormons) then it’s like saying she isn’t important. wouldn’t that be a GREAT example to set for “Families are Forever.”

Also Mormons are spreading a lie with “Families are Forever.” There are, in Mormon belief, THREE levels of heaven. And the chances that an entire family will go to the same level are slim That’s a cruel thing to teach. You could acknowledge as Catholics do that ALL saints in heaven will be a great and perfect family!

Except of course that Catholics believe that marriage is disolved upon death, so your claim is a little…well…circular. Of course you believe that all saints in heaven will be a great and perfect family, because only saints will be IN heaven. Everybody else will be in hell.

So how is that more compasionate than teaching that there are three levels of heaven?

Given that you guys think the family is utterly disolved upon death, I think your objection, here, is disengenuous. Of course, you MIGHT want to add this to the list of questions you claim have complete answers in your faith tradition: if marriage is disolved upon death, how IS a family supposed to be together?

I also love this (I copied it from somewhere else on the site). “Gordon B. Hinckley, published in the San Francisco Chronicle on April 13, 1997. When asked: ‘Don’t Mormons believe that God was once a man?’ Hinckley demurred. 'I wouldn’t say that. There’s a little couplet coined, ‘As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.’ Now, that’s more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don’t know very much about.”’
Um HELLO!? you were the PROPHET. that “little coined couplet” you kinda make sound insignificant is (according to you) HOLY SCRIPTURE.

It IS? Would you care to give me the chapter and verse in which that particular couplet occurs in any scripture we accept as such?

You don’t know much about ‘deep theology’?!? please read above, President Hinckley.

With all due respect, before you begin criticising our ‘deep theology,’ you might attempt to learn some shallow theology…like accurate facts about what our beliefs actually are.

So do Mormons believe God is One, or separate beings with a linked spirit? it can be answered and EITHER WAY in Mormon scripture.

Articles of Faith:
(don’t worry, I’m just going to quote the first one)

*We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. * We believe that they are three very separate Beings, united in purpose and in Godhood.

 

[dianaiad]

The New Testament was committed to writing by “Apostles and apostolic men” - all members of Christ’s Catholic Church.

And yes, you are correct that the Catholic Church infallibly defined the Canon of Scripture.

We agree with you that the apostles and prophets who wrote the NT were definitely of Christ’s church, with the priesthood authority and the truth…as well as Truth. Things didn’t go south until later…about the same time Catholics agree that public revelation ceased.

 

[1holycatholic]

We agree with you that the apostles and prophets who wrote the NT were definitely of Christ’s church, with the priesthood authority and the truth…as well as Truth. Things didn’t go south until later…about the same time Catholics agree that public revelation ceased.

The contemporaneous historical writings of the Early Church Fathers are remarkably consistent, and they don’t support your assertion. Do you have evidence that backs up your assertion, or is the basis for Mormonism nebulous conspiracy theories?