LDS, history and Gods mercy

[debbie_h]

I have some really close friends who are LDS, and often we talk about our beliefs. Recently we’ve been discussing the Great Apostasy (she suggested I read the book by James Talmage), and I remarked that their own church must’ve gone through an apostasy b/c of all the many sects that broke off of Smith and the doctrinal changes. She replied that God would have smitten Smith if he attempted to lead the Saints wrongly, and He would do the same to any of their leaders, God would smite them first if they were false. This caught me completely off guard! After all, if that’s how God operated, why did he allow the Catholic Church to grow, put together the canon of the bible and distribute it throughout the world through missionaries if the church had completely apostatized? Wouldn’t God have completely blown the Church off the face of the planet then for teaching apostate doctrines? Why would God allow the Christian faith to grow so abundantly for hundreds of years if it was so utterly opposed to his real doctrines, which the LDS claim to teach? And what about Gods mercy? How is God merciful if he allowed false doctrines to become established throughout the world, leading millions of people to ignorantly worship a different God through false doctrines, only then to decide to raise up a new prophet to correct everyone and then threaten damnation and death if he were to falsely lead the people? I’m not trying to be disrespectful to LDS believers, but this one statement opened up a whole new can of worms for me! God is SO different, how do you reconcile the two completely different natures of God? Because if you’re LDS, and Christs church (Catholic) completely apostatized, then God was indifferent and silent until 1820 (when Smith had his “vision”). Now God is finally responding to the “abominable” doctrines and setting the record straight, and He’s not gonna mess around anymore, you jump out of line, He’s going to smite you. In my mind, there’s this big, fat, black line separating the different natures of God in history. If you are LDS, how do you justify God and history? Wouldn’t the very nature of Gods different attitudes raise suspicions? And, while I’m asking, how does your church explain such a long time difference between dispensations? Not even in the OT or the BOM was there such a long gap between dispensations.

Keep in mind that to understand & believe LDS dogma is to perform mental gymnastics of an elite level. I could never believe in the “great apostasy”. The apostolic succession & continuous presence of the CATHOLIC church that Jesus put on the earth is proof in itself that JS is a false prophet.

 

[jadamo]

I find this an interesting question and fairly valid. The comment in question stems from the LDS belief that God will not lead his church astray. The corollary to it is that God will not permit the prophet and president of the LDS church to lead the members astray. The step beyond that, is the belief that the prophet, when acting in an official capacity, will say nothing bout the words of God. For some members this rhetoric can be carried down to Bishops or any church leader.

It seems I have seen a form of the belief on this board (correct me if I’m wrong). For Catholics it is simply taken back in time to Jesus Christ. It goes: once Christ established the true church, God would never permit it to be lead astray. Since God would never lead his church astray the Catholic church is the church of God.

I believe both these statements are wrong to some extent. The problem is, any church on earth is at some point directed and guided by men. Even a prophet or apostle sometimes speaks his own words, not God’s. This is why the Holy Ghost is so vital. We must use the Spirit to confirm and testify of truth. By this I don’t mean to say anything against organized religion. It can and does lead the sincere follower of Christ to much truth. But at some point we must realize that the men who speak to us filter the words of Christ through their own lens. Even what I say is filtered through my own experience. It is vital then that we go to the source or will forever stumble over others words.

You are wrong to an extent, so I will correct you to the best of my ability No church is, nor can be, perfect while here on earth, and the Catholic Church does not claim to be perfect, but a pilgrim church, full of sinners and saints. Christ commissioned the Apostles to spread the good news and guard the faith so that it could be handed down from generation to generation. The Catholic Church is the very same Church that the Apostles formed, and the Church guards the deposit of faith from those with “itching ears” who would prefer to interpret scripture differently b/c of politics or other outside noise, to better suit their purpose. Christ promised that the Holy Spirit, the advocate the Father would send, would guide the Church always, and in this the Holy Spirit will not fail, b/c if we cannot trust Christ and His promises, or the Holy Spirits ability to guide us in interpretation, then whom can we trust? We (all of humanity) constitute the body of Christ, and there are many who choose to cut themselves off from the body. All Christians are still members of the body, but with all the different protestant denominations out there, each interpreting scriptures just slightly differently than another church, makes a body at war with itself, and that’s not what Christ wanted. We are meant to be one. To be one, we have to learn to obey in humility and out of love for Christ, as Christ obeyed God out of humility and love even to death on a cross. The Catholic Church recognizes that there is some truth in all the different Christian denominations, and baptisms are still valid (except for LDS baptisms). However, only the Catholic Church has all the sacraments, especially the Eucharist, which is definitely NOT a symbol! And this is something I KNOW from personal experience. And individual pastors still filter the message of Christ through their own lens, they can claim the Holy Spirit guides them and it’s 100% true, but how do you know? The guy down the street says the same thing and so does about a dozen other people within a 5 mile radius, but all their interpratations are still different from one another, so who truly is right? I believe the Catholic interpration of the scriptures is correct b/c Christ promised us it would truly be divinely inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit. To scoff at our obvious sinful humanity and go it on your own is not humility and trust in God, but trust in yourself and who you agree with, and neglecting to see the “beam” in your own eye.
Now, there have been a handful of popes who were rather devious, but at times in our history when the leadership failed, God raised up some pretty amazing saints to help guide the people and encourage us in our faith. The Church history is rather beautiful! I was once accused that the Church couldn’t be true b/c of the bad popes in history, but when I began studying Church history for myself, I fell in love w/the absolute beauty of it, the undeniable humanity of it all, and yet, we’re still here, the faith still unchanged and guarded. Papal infallibility is probably not what you think it is. Pope Francis is still just a man, who is still a sinner and needs Christ as his redeemer. He is not perfect and everything he says is not infallible. If this is something you don’t know much about, you should look into it
All in all, after genuinly questioning my faith years ago, I fell in love with the beauty and richness of the Catholic faith through deep prayer and study. In all humility I prayed hard and called out for help, and the Holy Spirity aided me, just as Christ promised.
Sorry this was so long! I hope I didn’t come off as preachy, I certaintly am not that type! I hope this helped, good luck in everything you do

 

[LivingWaters7]

The Great Apostasy really is what it comes down to. If there was no Great Apostasy, then all of the churches that posit an apostasy and subsequent restoration of the Truth (whether the various Mormon-related churches, Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc) are unnecessary, since a restoration was not necessary. If there was indeed a Great Apostasy, then that doesn’t automatically lead one to the LDS Church in the first place. There are many churches that claim such a thing occurring.

The Great Apostasy was also something that I was very unsure of prior to my conversion to the LDS Church. I asked the missionaries about it, and they pointed me to a few verses in the Bible. Unfortunately, all of them pointed to a partial apostasy (which the Catholic Church accepts), and not a total loss of the priesthood authority on the earth. Pondering the Great Apostasy was also part of what brought me back to the Catholic Church.

Some LDS will point to the various churches that existed prior to “the Restoration” as evidence of the fractured nature of Christianity, and that there was no true church on the earth. The problem with such an argument is that it can be made for the church established by Joseph Smith as well, since the LDS movement contains dozens of splinter churches, many of which are still in existence today.

LDS will claim that “revelation” ended, and that traditional Christians themselves claim that it did. Unfortunately, this is a misunderstanding of what traditional Christians, or at least Catholics, actually believe. Catholics believe that all Revelation necessary for our salvation has already been given, culminating in the self-Revelation of Jesus Christ, God the Son, in His Incarnation, ministry, death, and Resurrection. Nothing else is to be revealed on that. However, God continues to speak to His children, individually, as well as guiding the Church into all Truth, including Holy Spirit-guided Councils, the Spirit protection afforded to the Pope in Papal Infallibility, etc. Catholic history is rich with examples, for 2000 years, of the Heavens opening to people, visitations from Heavenly messengers, miracles, etc. God never stopped speaking, and Catholics believe He speaks to this day. Therefore, the argument that the LDS faith restored revelation no longer held any weight for me.

I also found it odd that the LDS Church would have a promise that it would never apostatize. Why couldn’t that promise have been given anciently when Christ established His Church? I realized that the promise was given. Although the Church is comprised of humans, fallible people that sin, it’s a hospital for sinners, not a museum of saints. It is also the Body of Christ, with Christ at its Head, guided by the Holy Spirit into all Truth, and therefore has a supernatural reality to it that is not present in any merely human organization. The Great Apostasy theory seems to treat the “primitive Church” as a human organization that can be destroyed and changed by the whims of man. Unfortunately the Biblical record of the Church does not demonstrate that (nor does history for that matter). Instead, God established His Kingdom, bringing all to eternal life in His presence, and that Kingdom has continued since He established it.

I do miss some of the social aspects of being LDS. Heck I even like the concept of having General and other conferences. However it’s the promises of God to His children that guided me back to the Catholic Church, which has prophets, apostles (bishops having the same apostolic authority as the NT Apostles), revelation, visions, miracles, healing, temples (our churches, cathedrals, and basilicas are demonstrably continuous with the Biblical temple rites and temple concept), deification/theosis, and most importantly the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist. I could never shake the fact that history and the Bible demonstrate that the belief in the Real Presence has been there from the very beginning (i.e. no apostasy of belief, no evidence of the LDS view), and is found in the most ancient Churches, no matter how far they are from each other (Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Ethiopia, India, Armenia, Greece, etc).

And I share this testimony inthenameofJesusChristamen!

 

[Brandon_Cal]

And I share this testimony inthenameofJesusChristamen!

Besides forgetting to say “I know Pope Francis is the Vicar of Christ, and I know the Bible is true.” not too shabby. It’s a shame you couldn’t speak at GC last weekend to counter Elder Dallin H. Oaks’ “this Church, unlike other organizations, does not change its policies or doctrines. They’re built on the unchangeable truths of God” talk.

 

[TexanKnight]

Besides forgetting to say “I know Pope Francis is the Vicar of Christ, and I know the Bible is true.” not too shabby. It’s a shame you couldn’t speak at GC last weekend to counter Elder Dallin H. Oaks’ “this Church, unlike other organizations, does not change its policies or doctrines. They’re built on the unchangeable truths of God” talk.

I think Oaks forgot the last part of that sentence…“this Church, unlike other organizations, does not change its policies or doctrines IN THE LAST FIVE MINUTES…”

 

[jadamo]

LivingWaters7, I just wanted to thank you for the link to your blog, I’ve been going through your posts and have really enjoyed your insight and writing. I would love to share this site w/my friends, I believe it is very respectful and objective which are qualities I believe are integral to spreading Christs love, however, I don’t think they are ready for even your site yet After pointiong out an obvious contradiction in the plan of salvation, which they couldn’t deny, I think I actually upset them enough that they prefer to “agree to disagree” and continue in our own respective faiths w/no more discussions. All I can really do is plant the seeds, and let Gods will flourish in their hearts over time. I will keep your blog in mind though, please keep my friends in your prayers, thank you!