LDS: Is the name "Nephi" a derivative of "Nephilim"?

[Esdra]

Are you aware that “Reformed Egyptian” is not recognized by any linguist in the world outside of the Mormon church? There is no evidence that it ever existed, just as there is no evidence for the most fundemental Mormon beliefs, beginning with the “Great Apostasy”, the golden plates, etc. Everything is based upon a claim with little to nothing supporting it. Be careful.

Yes, I know that Reformed Egyptian is not a language!
This was also not my point.

I just wanted to state that the people in the BoM, according to Mormons, didn’t speak KJV English but “Reformed Egyptian”. Nothing more. (as you and especially catsrus had written before!)
Neither did the Angels, I suppose…
Although I am not sure about the Angel visiting Joseph Smith, Moroni. (see Joseph-Smith-History, Verses 27–54)

The reason why the BoM is written in KJV English is that JS “translated” the “Reformed Egyptian” into that type of English.
And the reason is, like jerusha stated below, that KJV English was associated with the Bible - the KJV.

Esdra

 

[SteveVH]

Yes, I know that Reformed Egyptian is not a language!
This was also not my point.

I just wanted to state that the people in the BoM, according to Mormons, didn’t speak KJV English but “Reformed Egyptian”. Nothing more. (as you and especially catsrus had written before!)
Neither did the Angels, I suppose…
Although I am not sure about the Angel visiting Joseph Smith, Moroni. (see Joseph-Smith-History, Verses 27–54)

The reason why the BoM is written in KJV English is that JS “translated” the “Reformed Egyptian” into that type of English.
And the reason is, like jerusha stated below, that KJV English was associated with the Bible - the KJV.

Esdra

Sorry but you are really confusing me here. If you know that “Reformed Egyptian” is not a language then how do you accept that anything was translated from something that never existed?

 

[Esdra]

hi Zerinus! long time now hear! lol! i hope you have been well. on the contrary my friend. i am very familiar with the KJV. i used it as my primary bible for many years. ( i now use the douay rheims chandler edition.) i will need to clarify. no offense, but Joseph Smith, was not one of the the best authors. he is very repetative, and the way many things are phrased are very hard to understand for me. when someone like yourself, or Parker, takes a few verses, and explains them, they are much more easier for me to understand the intent of the author, or as you would call him. the translator. but then after all, it was written by a Latter Day Saint, for Latter Day Saints. so you would know better what is being said. i get more from it, if i listen to more of a commentary, from an actual adherent i guess. Peace and prayers for you. and i hope you are having a wonderful holiday season.

Hi

as I am using a German translation of the BoM I never had a problem in understanding it. The German Translation is really good (compared to the English Originial).

But you are right, the originial English “translation” is really VERY hard to understand. (And I guess for me double because first I am not a native-speaker of English and second I am not familar with the Elizabethean English!)
I have it also at home ('though the RLDS Edition, see above!).

Concerning getting the BoM (or any other Mormon scripture) explained by a Mormon I can’t judge, because normally I am not in “apologetic Mormon” threads.

But actually this reminds me of Scientology: I have heard that none can understand “Dianetics” without a Scientologist explaining it. Again I can’t judge, because I never have made an attempt to read it.

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

Yes, Esdra, you are slowly slipping from the point of view of a Baptist with an appreciation of the RLDS faith, to the POV of a Utahan LDS. Be VERY careful!

Nono, Don’t be afraid. I have really no intent to become a Mormon!

They are too far away in many points of their Doctrine (especially in The book of Abraham and some parts of the D&C) in my opinion.

But I will certainly stay in contact with my “RLDS e-mail friends” (I think they are apologists or ministers).
I really like the RLDS. I even crossed out all “non Christian parts” from the Pearl of Great Price and the D&C in my Triple Combination of the LDS scriptures.
(And only kept those that are also believed by the RLDS.)

By the way: only because I am defending the BoM this doesn’t mean I am on the way to become LDS! A RLDS would also defend the BoM, wouldn’t he?

The Elizabethan (King James) English was most closely associated with the Bible. Therefore, back-woods Americans would think it was equal to the Bible, since it was written in that “dialect.” It was all a part of the con.

Intersting. Thanks for that info.

Esdra

 

[benidict]

Yes, I know that Reformed Egyptian is not a language!
This was also not my point.

I just wanted to state that the people in the BoM, according to Mormons, didn’t speak KJV English but “Reformed Egyptian”. Nothing more. (as you and especially catsrus had written before!)
Neither did the Angels, I suppose…
Although I am not sure about the Angel visiting Joseph Smith, Moroni. (see Joseph-Smith-History, Verses 27–54)

The reason why the BoM is written in KJV English is that JS “translated” the “Reformed Egyptian” into that type of English.
And the reason is, like jerusha stated below, that KJV English was associated with the Bible - the KJV.

Esdra

i would think they spoke to Joseph in english, and i think i understand the point you are making about people in the BOM. i just dont know how to word it. Peace

 

[RebeccaJ]

The KJV is written in the language of the time and place it was written, 17th century England. It is a translation of Hebrew and Greek documents into this language, which is close to the modern English we use, but has differences.

Much of the BoM is copied straight from the KJV Bible and it would have looked odd to have a “translation” that switched between KJV and 19th century American English. The desire to appear legitimate required that the rest of the book be written to match what was plagiarized.

 

[Esdra]

Sorry but you are really confusing me here. If you know that “Reformed Egyptian” is not a language then how do you accept that anything was translated from something that never existed?

I don’t believe that there was ever something like Reformed Egyptian, and I don’t believe that the BoM tells the historical correct history of the Native Americans.
(And by the way: that wouldn’t be a problem in the RLDS Church. Same with the sentence below.)

But I do value the BoM as a great source of scripture with lots of wisdom in it. (No wonder, since most parts are more or less literal copied from the Holy Bible! )

And I do think that JS and his friends “constructed” the BoM.

Mhm, I guess I should have written more things in " in my last post, then it’d be clear that I don’t believe in the BoM as a scripture from God which is to be seen of the same value than the Holy Bible…

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

i would think they spoke to Joseph in english, and i think i understand the point you are making about people in the BOM. i just dont know how to word it. Peace

I am glad you understand, really!

Let’s put it like this:
Suppose I am a translator and I translate a book which plays, let’s say, in India and is written in Hindi. People naturally speak Hindi there. Now I am translating this book into English.
So I will translate not only the story into English but also the dialogues these people have into English and I won’t let it in Hindi.
So, if you read my translation, would you then say, “Hey, that can’t be, these Indians speak English!”?

Same thing with the BoM. The people in the BoM spoke, according to the Mormons, “Reformed Egyptian”.
Mormons (except some RLDS who think similar about the BoM than I do, see my above post!) believe that these peoples in the BoM exist as well as the language Reformed Egyptian.

So, Steve and catsrus, you can’t say that they spoke (Elizabethean) English.

If you want to discuss with Mormons, you need to take the BoM siriously and think like a Mormon, and not like a non-Mormon.
This is what I try to do. As I have studied the Mormon Scriptures.

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

The KJV is written in the language of the time and place it was written, 17th century England. It is a translation of Hebrew and Greek documents into this language, which is close to the modern English we use, but has differences.

Much of the BoM is copied straight from the KJV Bible and it would have looked odd to have a “translation” that switched between KJV and 19th century American English. The desire to appear legitimate required that the rest of the book be written to match what was plagiarized.

Very nice explanation. Thanks for sharing.

Too bad that at this time the American Standard Version didn’t exist (which was released in 1901)! - Then Joseph Smith could have copied from the ASV and the rest he could have written in 19th Century English.
Actually then, so I suppose, would have been much less discussion nowadays about the historicity (that it really describes the life of the Native Americans) of it!

Esdra

 

[zerinus]

Yeah, I’ve thought so… Actually I would only need the names of people for nicknames in the Internet. Maybe I’ll go through the list and have a look in the online Version of the BoM to figure out the names.

Yea, only don’t choose Gadianton, whatever you do!

 

[Esdra]

Yea, only don’t choose Gadianton, whatever you do!

Why not?

I mean, I know the Gadianton is a robber chief in the BoM, but actually I find this name not too bad!

But, no I actually i never considered Gadianton as a nickname.

Usually I use: Teantum, Seantum, Moroni, Moronihah Corihor, Coriantumr etc.
But now I have a much wider range to choose from!

Esdra

 

[zerinus]

You see, KJV English is horror for a non-nativespeaker of English…

Esdra

I can understand. It will be a bit of a hard work to start with; but I believe you will begin to enjoy it once you get into it. If I am correct, German also has a high literary tradition which can be difficult to understgand. In particular, I have heard that the German classic Bible (equivalent to KJV in English) is also beautifully written, but still hard to read.

 

[Esdra]

I can understand. It will be a bit of a hard work to start with; but I believe you will begin to enjoy it once you get into it. If I am correct, German also has a high literary tradition which can be difficult to understgand. In particular, I have heard that the German classic Bible (equivalent to KJV in English) is also beautifully written, but still hard to read.

Oh yes, German has a high literary tradition. But actually, hardly none reads the “ancient works” meaning those form the 19th century or so. Like Goethe, Schiller etc.
'Though in Grammar School you are required to read some of those.
Especially Goethe is, depending what you read of him, very hard to understand!

Actually, I am not sure what you mean by German classic Bible (which’d be the equivalent to the KJV).
You see, there are many German Bible translations. And as nearly whole Europe is Catholic, the Catholic Bibles were most widespread (usually without name, just The Holy Bible).
My dad has an old Bible at home and it simply says: “The Holy Bible” and the translators afterwards.

In Northern Germany (which is Protestant/Lutheran dominated) mainly the Luther Bible is used, but none uses nowadays Luther’s original version of 1545. And in the protestant part of Switzerland usually the Zürcher Bibel is used (which has been updated and revised 3 years ago! )

Well, and among German Baptists and Pentecostals and Mennonites (which have close ties here in Europe, in contrast to, what I have read, the US) use various German Bibles.
In the meantime there are pretty many German Bible-translations around.

Esdra

 

[zerinus]

Why not?

I mean, I know the Gadianton is a robber chief in the BoM, but actually I find this name not too bad!

But, no I actually i never considered Gadianton as a nickname.

Usually I use: Teantum, Seantum, Moroni, Moronihah Corihor, Coriantumr etc.
But now I have a much wider range to choose from!

Esdra

Gadianton was the BoM equivalent of Osama Bin Laden, you wouldn’t want to have anything to do with him!

 

[Esdra]

Gadianton was the BoM equivalent of Osama Bin Laden, you wouldn’t want to have anything to do with him!

Mhm okay.
I guess I’ll read the passage about Gadianton again. Having a look if he is really similar to Osama!

Actually, we have been making jokes in Grammar School like: “Guess what I have hid Osama in my house.” and other so stupid things. - Kids!

Esdra

 

[zerinus]

Actually, I am not sure what you mean by German classic Bible (which’d be the equivalent to the KJV).

I don’t know German; but I have herd that there is a classic edition of the German Bible that is roughly equivalent to the KJV in English, with similar characteristics. I don’t know how true that is, or what that particular edition of the German Bible would be called. I could be completely wrong.

 

[Indyann]

Yes, it came from Joseph Smith’s imagination.
sourceflix.com/the-bible-vs-the-book-of-mormon/

I watched this whole looooooong, very informative video. This video is well documented and well done. The scenery is beautiful.

I started to watch the one on the Worldwide Church of Christ. But my computer went :whacky:, so I will watch it later.

Thanks for posting the link.

I challenge the Mormons to refute the information on this video.

If the BOM is true, it should not be hard to do.

 

[zerinus]

Mhm okay.
I guess I’ll read the passage about Gadianton again. Having a look if he is really similar to Osama!

Actually, we have been making jokes in Grammar School like: “Guess what I have hid Osama in my house.” and other so stupid things. - Kids!

Esdra

Okay, there are loads of Osama computer games, like Shoot Osama, some of which can be played online. Kids would live it. Try this for a taster. Ignore the adds, and click on “skip” to skip the opening scenes before the game states.

 

[zerinus]

hi Zerinus! long time now hear! lol! i hope you have been well. on the contrary my friend. i am very familiar with the KJV. i used it as my primary bible for many years. ( i now use the douay rheims chandler edition.) i will need to clarify. no offense, but Joseph Smith, was not one of the the best authors. he is very repetative, and the way many things are phrased are very hard to understand for me. when someone like yourself, or Parker, takes a few verses, and explains them, they are much more easier for me to understand the intent of the author, or as you would call him. the translator. but then after all, it was written by a Latter Day Saint, for Latter Day Saints. so you would know better what is being said. i get more from it, if i listen to more of a commentary, from an actual adherent i guess. Peace and prayers for you. and i hope you are having a wonderful holiday season.

Thank you Benedict for your kind words. I am doing very well thank you, and I hope you are having a great time too.

With regard to your comments about the Book of Mormon, I am puzzled that you say you are familiar with the KJV, and still find it difficult to understand the Book of Mormon. The BoM is actually written in a simpler language than the KJV, though the same style; and you really shouldn’t find it that difficult to understand. Perhaps if you would quote a verse or two that you find particularly difficult to understand, we can discuss it, and see where the difficulty lies.

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t believe that there was ever something like Reformed Egyptian, and I don’t believe that the BoM tells the historical correct history of the Native Americans.
(And by the way: that wouldn’t be a problem in the RLDS Church. Same with the sentence below.)

But I do value the BoM as a great source of scripture with lots of wisdom in it. (No wonder, since most parts are more or less literal copied from the Holy Bible! )

And I do think that JS and his friends “constructed” the BoM.

Mhm, I guess I should have written more things in " in my last post, then it’d be clear that I don’t believe in the BoM as a scripture from God which is to be seen of the same value than the Holy Bible…

Esdra

You believe the BoM was “constructed” by JS and friends, which means that you believe that they lied about its origin, which means it is a fraud, yet you believe it is*“a great source of scripture with lots of wisdom in it.”* Ok.