LDS: Is the name "Nephi" a derivative of "Nephilim"?

[Jerusha]

you believe it is"a great source of scripture with lots of wisdom in it." Ok

Have you really read it? Maybe you can skip over the preaching and just read it for the plot. There is some good stuff in it. If it were all bad, no-one would have bought it. You know, some people seem to overgeneralize-- things are either all bad or all good. Even Marx had some accurate observations on the situation in England in 1850.

 

[SteveVH]

I am glad you understand, really!

Let’s put it like this:
Suppose I am a translator and I translate a book which plays, let’s say, in India and is written in Hindi. People naturally speak Hindi there. Now I am translating this book into English.
So I will translate not only the story into English but also the dialogues these people have into English and I won’t let it in Hindi.
So, if you read my translation, would you then say, “Hey, that can’t be, these Indians speak English!”?

Same thing with the BoM. The people in the BoM spoke, according to the Mormons, “Reformed Egyptian”.
Mormons (except some RLDS who think similar about the BoM than I do, see my above post!) believe that these peoples in the BoM exist as well as the language Reformed Egyptian.

So, Steve and catsrus, you can’t say that they spoke (Elizabethean) English.

If you want to discuss with Mormons, you need to take the BoM siriously and think like a Mormon, and not like a non-Mormon.
This is what I try to do. As I have studied the Mormon Scriptures.

Esdra

I have never said that they (Laminites,etc.) spoke Elizabethan English. They didn’t speak anything because they never existed. The issue concerns Joseph Smith’s motivation in writing it down in that dialect. As Rebecca has aptly stated many of us believe it was for no other reason than to perpetrate a fraud. And I have no desire to begin thinking like a Mormon nor to take seriously a book that I believe is a complete fraud. Why would you do that?

 

[benidict]

Thank you Benedict for your kind words. I am doing very well thank you, and I hope you are having a great time too.

With regard to your comments about the Book of Mormon, I am puzzled that you say you are familiar with the KJV, and still find it difficult to understand the Book of Mormon. The BoM is actually written in a simpler language than the KJV, though the same style; and you really shouldn’t find it that difficult to understand. Perhaps if you would quote a verse or two that you find particularly difficult to understand, we can discuss it, and see where the difficulty lies.

id love to my friend. but i had to leave my copy back when i came to iraq. no room. hopefully fly will be able to send me another copy, after the holiday season. then i can do this. Peace

 

[zerinus]

I have never said that they (Laminites,etc.) spoke Elizabethan English. They didn’t speak anything because they never existed. The issue concerns Joseph Smith’s motivation in writing it down in that dialect. As Rebecca has aptly stated many of us believe it was for no other reason than to perpetrate a fraud. And I have no desire to begin thinking like a Mormon nor to take seriously a book that I believe is a complete fraud. Why would you do that?

For the same reason that I need to get into the Catholic mindset, and learn to think like a Catholic, in order to understand what Catholics are talking about, and be able to engage in an intelligent discussion with them on the subject of religion.

 

[Esdra]

You believe the BoM was “constructed” by JS and friends, which means that you believe that they lied about its origin, which means it is a fraud, yet you believe it is*“a great source of scripture with lots of wisdom in it.”* Ok.

Yes, actually I do. I guess you can compare that to the Book of Job which also isn’t historically, but yet a great source of scripture.

Or, as I have studied Ancient History at Universtiy, with the historical books of the OT, like 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, Ezra and Nehemiah.
There are also a lot of historical false data in it, yet I still think it’s a valueable and great source of scripture.

You see, there are so many Holy books outside which may or may not be historically correct, yet you can find in them a lot of wisdom and they are worth reading. For me this also counts for the BoM.

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

I have never said that they (Laminites,etc.) spoke Elizabethan English. They didn’t speak anything because they never existed. The issue concerns Joseph Smith’s motivation in writing it down in that dialect. As Rebecca has aptly stated many of us believe it was for no other reason than to perpetrate a fraud. And I have no desire to begin thinking like a Mormon nor to take seriously a book that I believe is a complete fraud. Why would you do that?

Privately you can believe what ever you want according the BoM, **but **if you are in a discussion with LDS (or RLDS; although, as far as I know there are no RLDS here in CAF), then you have to take the BoM seriously. Because both believe in the BoM as a source of scripture.
It’s comparable to Muslims: If you discuss with Muslims you also have to take the Qu’ran seriously.

Esdra

 

[Esdra]

For the same reason that I need to get into the Catholic mindset, and learn to think like a Catholic, in order to understand what Catholics are talking about, and be able to engage in an intelligent discussion with them on the subject of religion.

Yes, very correct.

Esdra

 

[Jerusha]

benidict:

I don’t know how much 'puter time you get. Here is my favorite on-line version:
2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/bom_main.shtml

And here is KJV with “apocrypha”
biblicalproportions.com/modules/ol_bible/

 

[Jerusha]

My post copied from another thread, so it won’t be missed:

The BoM is worthy of study as a piece of fictional literature. Comparison of the BoM with Job is legitimate, since both deal with the problem of pain (in different ways). Perhaps Mormons have forgotten Job.

And more:
There are many parts of the BoM which urge people towards ethical behavior. And many Mormons ignore them, thinking that they are here to punish those they deem to be wicked. Actually, the BoM contains many warnings of the consequences for not following those rules for ethical behavior. I can only conclude that modern-day LDS are in apostasy from the BoM.

 

[Esdra]

My post copied from another thread, so it won’t be missed:

The BoM is worthy of study as a piece of fictional literature. Comparison of the BoM with Job is legitimate, since both deal with the problem of pain (in different ways). Perhaps Mormons have forgotten Job.

And more:
There are many parts of the BoM which urge people towards ethical behavior. And many Mormons ignore them, thinking that they are here to punish those they deem to be wicked. Actually, the BoM contains many warnings of the consequences for not following those rules for ethical behavior. I can only conclude that modern-day LDS are in apostasy from the BoM.

Yes, that’s definitely true.
For me the RLDS are the “true Mormons”. - They stick to the BoM (which is definitely a Christian, even a Baptist book, you could say) and to the Holy Bible. (And mostly the newer D&C. As they believe in continuing relevation. At the moment they are at Section 164 which was written this year (2010))

'Esdra

 

[SteveVH]

For the same reason that I need to get into the Catholic mindset, and learn to think like a Catholic, in order to understand what Catholics are talking about, and be able to engage in an intelligent discussion with them on the subject of religion.

Well z…, if you have ever entered into a Catholic mindset that is news to me. Of course there are good things in the BoM, principally the scriptures that were lifted out of the Bible. Even beyond that, it is full of moral and ethical principles, but there are many secular books that also contain moral and ethical principles. It doesn’t make them the word of God. The greatest danger, however, lurks in materials that are mostly good. That is what draws people into also believing the errors it contains and why I would never recommend anyone reading it, other than from a purely scholarly viewpoint. When people believe it is “scripture”, meaning the word of God, that is when I have a problem.

As for getting into a Mormon mindset, I have been trying to figure out what you believe and why you believe it for quite some time now and believe that it is a worthwhile exercise just in order to communicate. It is why I started a thread called “LDS: Can I get a straight answer”. I asked three questions as simply as I am able and still, confusion reigns in the answers I received. I would love to know how you think but thus far I am less than satisfied. For example, the idea of eternal progression can be found all over this forum and then you come on and tell us that it is not an official doctrine and that you really don’t believe it. Yet you were the reason I started the thread.

I am a fly fisherman. One of the tricks in fly fishing is called “matching the hatch”. You observe the the various species of insects landing on the water, and more importantly, which species are being consumed by the trout. You then choose an artificial fly that matches, as closely as possible, the species which they are most likely to bite. Too me, that is Mormonism. It is why LDS television commercials offer a free Bible rather than the BoM or D&C. They know more people will bite. It is why not everything is disclosed to a new member until after they have been “baptized”; after they have swallowed the hook. Mormonism passes itself off as something that it is not, namely, Christianity.

 

[Esdra]

Well z…, if you have ever entered into a Catholic mindset that is news to me. Of course there are good things in the BoM, principally the scriptures that were lifted out of the Bible. Even beyond that, it is full of moral and ethical principles, but there are many secular books that also contain moral and ethical principles. It doesn’t make them the word of God. The greatest danger, however, lurks in materials that are mostly good. That is what draws people into also believing the errors it contains and why I would never recommend anyone reading it, other than from a purely scholarly viewpoint. When people believe it is “scripture”, meaning the word of God, that is when I have a problem.

As for getting into a Mormon mindset, I have been trying to figure out what you believe and why you believe it for quite some time now and believe that it is a worthwhile exercise just in order to communicate. It is why I started a thread called “LDS: Can I get a straight answer”. I asked three questions as simply as I am able and still, confusion reigns in the answers I received. I would love to know how you think but thus far I am less than satisfied. For example, the idea of eternal progression can be found all over this forum and then you come on and tell us that it is not an official doctrine and that you really don’t believe it. Yet you were the reason I started the thread.

I am a fly fisherman. One of the tricks in fly fishing is called “matching the hatch”. You observe the the various species of insects landing on the water, and more importantly, which species are being consumed by the trout. You then choose an artificial fly that matches, as closely as possible, the species which they are most likely to bite. Too me, that is Mormonism. It is why LDS television commercials offer a free Bible rather than the BoM or D&C. They know more people will bite. It is why not everything is disclosed to a new member until after they have been “baptized”; after they have swallowed the hook. Mormonism passes itself off as something that it is not, namely, Christianity.

Hi Steven,

as LDS is in large parts free-mansory, I think you will never be able to fully understand them. Especially what’s going on in the temple and what this “progression” means you mentioned. (which in my opinion has to do with Apotheosis, which is typical for freemansory thinking)
The only way to fully embrace these “secrets” are when you really become a LDS in a priesthood (because without, you are not even allowed to enter the Temple(s)!)

That’s the reason why I stopped searching about LDS and concentrated on RLDS, you know? And also because they are not really Christian in my opinion.

Regarding advertising the Bible in LDS commercials (I, by the way, have never seen so far. But I guess this is because I am not in the US):
[But the idea is good. The LDS KJV Version is full of crossreferences to the BoM, the PoGP and the D&C {as are all their books}.
Because this is how I got interested and bought myself the Triple Combination /after seeing the cross references in the BoM, in this case./ of the Holy Scriptures of the LDS! And slipped deeper and deeper into Mormonism. And if mom wouldn’t have hidden the Triple Combination, I guess I would’ve become a Mormon…
I simply wanted to know what these other scriptures are about. There was really a time, I quite thorougly studied ALL LDS Scriptures (without the History of the Church).
So you can say what you can get to know without being a priest in the LDS Church, I am quite well informed. ]

When you meet Mormons on the Street (and they are on the Streets here in Austria, too - even Americans, which can speak really good German, normally!), and they have talked to you for a while and have the feeling you are interested, they will give you a BoM Copy and not a Bible for free! (This is what happened to me!°)

Esdra

 

[zerinus]

Well z…, if you have ever entered into a Catholic mindset that is news to me. Of course there are good things in the BoM, principally the scriptures that were lifted out of the Bible. Even beyond that, it is full of moral and ethical principles, but there are many secular books that also contain moral and ethical principles. It doesn’t make them the word of God. The greatest danger, however, lurks in materials that are mostly good. That is what draws people into also believing the errors it contains and why I would never recommend anyone reading it, other than from a purely scholarly viewpoint. When people believe it is “scripture”, meaning the word of God, that is when I have a problem.

A bunch of worthless generalizations that have no scholarly, academic, or theological value to anyone.

As for getting into a Mormon mindset, I have been trying to figure out what you believe and why you believe it for quite some time now and believe that it is a worthwhile exercise just in order to communicate. It is why I started a thread called “LDS: Can I get a straight answer”. I asked three questions as simply as I am able and still, confusion reigns in the answers I received. I would love to know how you think but thus far I am less than satisfied. For example, the idea of eternal progression can be found all over this forum and then you come on and tell us that it is not an official doctrine and that you really don’t believe it. Yet you were the reason I started the thread.

What was there about the answer I gave you that you did not understand?

I am a fly fisherman. One of the tricks in fly fishing is called “matching the hatch”. You observe the the various species of insects landing on the water, and more importantly, which species are being consumed by the trout. You then choose an artificial fly that matches, as closely as possible, the species which they are most likely to bite. Too me, that is Mormonism. It is why LDS television commercials offer a free Bible rather than the BoM or D&C. They know more people will bite. It is why not everything is disclosed to a new member until after they have been “baptized”; after they have swallowed the hook. Mormonism passes itself off as something that it is not, namely, Christianity.

Interesting comment. It appears you may have overlooked Jeremiah 16:14–16:

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

But, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

 

[flyonthewall]

Are you aware that “Reformed Egyptian” is not recognized by any linguist in the world outside of the Mormon church? There is no evidence that it ever existed, just as there is no evidence for the most fundemental Mormon beliefs, beginning with the “Great Apostasy”, the golden plates, etc. Everything is based upon a claim with little to nothing supporting it. Be careful.

Are you aware that no claim was ever made that “reformed Egyptian” is a language. It is a writing system, not a language.
They modifed, or “reformed” Egyptian for use with the language they used to communicate.

An example would be if we started using Chinese Kanji characters to record english…we would need to modify the Kanji characters to make it work to our satisfaction.

 

[SteveVH]

Are you aware that no claim was ever made that “reformed Egyptian” is a language. It is a writing system, not a language.
They modifed, or “reformed” Egyptian for use with the language they used to communicate.

An example would be if we started using Chinese Kanji characters to record english…we would need to modify the Kanji characters to make it work to our satisfaction.

And for what purpose would one have to go through such a process in order to record divine revelation? This is nothing but another moving target in my opinion. But thanks, now I have yet another explanation.

 

[SteveVH]

A bunch of worthless generalizations that have no scholarly, academic, or theological value to anyone.

Are you speaking of my words or the BoM?

What was there about the answer I gave you that you did not understand?

We should discuss it on that thread.

Interesting comment. It appears you may have overlooked Jeremiah 16:14–16:

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be said, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

But, The Lord liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.

Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the Lord, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

I think you completely missed the point. When one fly fishes the point is to fool the fish.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steven,

as LDS is in large parts free-mansory, I think you will never be able to fully understand them. Especially what’s going on in the temple and what this “progression” means you mentioned. (which in my opinion has to do with Apotheosis, which is typical for freemansory thinking)
The only way to fully embrace these “secrets” are when you really become a LDS in a priesthood (because without, you are not even allowed to enter the Temple(s)!)

That’s the reason why I stopped searching about LDS and concentrated on RLDS, you know? And also because they are not really Christian in my opinion.

Regarding advertising the Bible in LDS commercials (I, by the way, have never seen so far. But I guess this is because I am not in the US):
[But the idea is good. The LDS KJV Version is full of crossreferences to the BoM, the PoGP and the D&C {as are all their books}.
Because this is how I got interested and bought myself the Triple Combination /after seeing the cross references in the BoM, in this case./ of the Holy Scriptures of the LDS! And slipped deeper and deeper into Mormonism. And if mom wouldn’t have hidden the Triple Combination, I guess I would’ve become a Mormon…
I simply wanted to know what these other scriptures are about. There was really a time, I quite thorougly studied ALL LDS Scriptures (without the History of the Church).
So you can say what you can get to know without being a priest in the LDS Church, I am quite well informed. ]

When you meet Mormons on the Street (and they are on the Streets here in Austria, too - even Americans, which can speak really good German, normally!), and they have talked to you for a while and have the feeling you are interested, they will give you a BoM Copy and not a Bible for free! (This is what happened to me!°)

Esdra

Thanks Esdra. But when you refer to them as “scriptures” you are acknowledging them as the word of God. If you believe they are then you should follow them. If you believe they are not from God then you should not read them as such.

God bless.

 

[flyonthewall]

And for what purpose would one have to go through such a process in order to record divine revelation? This is nothing but another moving target in my opinion. But thanks, now I have yet another explanation.

Are you saying that you think we are stating that “reformed Egyptian” was required to receive divine revelation?
Really, I don’t understand what you are referring to.

 

[Esdra]

Thanks Esdra. But when you refer to them as “scriptures” you are acknowledging them as the word of God. If you believe they are then you should follow them. If you believe they are not from God then you should not read them as such.

God bless.

Uhm, what term should I use then? If not scriptures?
Novels?

You see, I also have the Qu’ran in German at home, and I also read it. Same with the Bhagavad Gita.

And same with the Apocrypha of the NT. - or also with the apocrypha of the OT! (In this case I am not referring to the Deuterocanon. They are borderline…)

I would call all of them scripture, due to lack of another term. But do I believe they are divinely inspired? → NO!
Only the Holy Bible (the OT with the 66 books and the NT) are divinely inspired for me!

They (BoM, Qu’ran, Bhagavad Gita etc) are all divinely inspired scriptures by the people they use them and believe in them. And you should always handle anything with respect, that for someone is holy!

So to stay with the BoM: For RLDS and LDS the BoM is holy, and therefore I refer to it as scripture and I handle it with respect. But this doesn’t mean I believe that it’s a divinely inspired scripture.

Esdra

 

[Jerusha]

Perhaps, Esdra, the distinction can be made through “scripture” versus “Scripture.”

I am grateful that you are here. Many American Baptists are not as respectful of others’ beliefs as you are.