LDS: Is the name "Nephi" a derivative of "Nephilim"?

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zerinus said:
D&C 97:

21 Therefore, verily, thus saith the Lord, let Zion rejoice, for this is Zion—THE PURE IN HEART; therefore, let Zion rejoice, while all the wicked shall mourn.

Zion means primarily the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; but is not exclusive to it.
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I didn’t ask what Zion means. I know what Zion means and it is not the LDS, in my opinion. You are avoiding my question concerning the great and abominable church though. How does “church” relate to just anyone who would fight against Zion?
 
SteveVH said:
I didn’t ask what Zion means. I know what Zion means and it is not the LDS, in my opinion. You are avoiding my question concerning the great and abominable church though. How does “church” relate to just anyone who would fight against Zion?
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That is because you are using the word “church” in a very limited sense. You are thinking of it only in terms of a “denominational” church. The church referred to in those verses is not a denominational church. It consists of the wicked people of the world. All those who are righteous, virtuous, and truly on the side of God, belong to God’s church; and the wicked and the unrighteous are the church of the devil. That is the meaning that comes from those verses. Now you may not think that that is a valid use of the word “church;” but you cannot deny that that is the definition of the “great and abominable church” that is implied in those verses. The argument is about what those verses mean, not what “church” means.
 
zerinus said:
That is because you are using the word “church” in a very limited sense. You are thinking of it only in terms of a “denominational” church. The church referred to in those verses is not a denominational church. It consists of the wicked people of the world. All those who are righteous, virtuous, and truly on the side of God, belong to God’s church; and the wicked and the unrighteous are the church of the devil. That is the meaning that comes from those verses. Now you may not think that that is a valid use of the word “church;” but you cannot deny that that is the definition of the “great and abominable church” that is implied in those verses. The argument is about what those verses mean, not what “church” means.
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Do you understand how frustrating it is in trying to communicate with one who gives their own definition of terms which do not comport with the rest of the English speaking world? No offense, but I see no point in carrying on this particular conversation.
 
zerinus said:
Okay, if these verses don’t explain it, then nothing else will:

1 Nephi 14:

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me, Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me, Behold, there are save two churches only: the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. Wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

1 Nephi 14:

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

2 Nephi 10:

16 Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, [both Catholic and Protestant], shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

How is that a description of the Catholic Church? Your familiarity with RLDS will not assist you in understanding true Mormonism beyond a certain point. You will need to dig deep within the LDS Church to understand the true doctrines of Mormonism.
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9 And it came to pass that he said unto me, Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me, Behold, there are save two churches only: the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. Wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Is the Mormon church THE church of the lamb of god?

These verses can be interpreted in different ways.
 
Pax_in_Veritate said:
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me, Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me, Behold, there are save two churches only: the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. Wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Is the Mormon church THE church of the lamb of god?

These verses can be interpreted in different ways.
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The more I read this verse, the more I realize he is talking about the Catholic Church. The Great Church (Catholic Church) is the mother of the Abominations (Protestants) and the great church is the whore of all of the earth (Catholics and Protestants, remember the Europeans had great empires at this time that spanned the globe).

The LDS is the Church of the Lamb of God restoring the true church. And since, the great church was not the church of the lamb of god, they are the church of the devil.

I can imagine early LDS invoking this verse to try to gain converts.
 
Pax_in_Veritate said:
The more I read this verse, the more I realize he is talking about the Catholic Church. The Great Church (Catholic Church) is the mother of the Abominations (Protestants) and the great church is the whore of all of the earth (Catholics and Protestants, remember the Europeans had great empires at this time that spanned the globe).

The LDS is the Church of the Lamb of God restoring the true church. And since, the great church was not the church of the lamb of god, they are the church of the devil.

I can imagine early LDS invoking this verse to try to gain converts.
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Of course it is speaking of the Catholic Church. This is the same strategy employed when speaking of the “Great Apostasy”. It no longer means a complete loss of truth, rather just a loss of “priesthood authority”. I am willing to accept that modern day Mormons are sincere in their modern beliefs about the “great and abominable church” as well as the purported “apostasy”, erroneous as they are, but I don’t appreciate their unwillingness to admit the original meaning held by their founders, which was pretty nasty. I can also understand the hesitancy in discussing this on a Catholic forum, but it doesn’t get us very far when we can’t just be honest about it.
 
I see many times parishes using a cross with a Lamb on it to begin Mass and have the Cross of the Lamb lead the presbyter and the ministers up to the altar.

Does the Mormon church use much imagery of the Lamb?
 
Perhaps an easier way to look at it is, the church of God consists of all who seek to do the will of God, and the church of the devil, or the great and abominable church consists of all the rest.
Can you now see how the “Church of God” that is referenced in the BoM is not limited to any one denomination, as members of all churches seek to do the will of God.

This is the way it has always been. That is why when BRM put it in his book, the church told him to remove it as it is NOT what the LDS church teaches.

I find it interesting that even when told by LDS that the great and abominable church is not the Catholic church, you refuse to believe us, and continue to claim that it is. :confused:
 
SteveVH said:
Of course it is speaking of the Catholic Church. This is the same strategy employed when speaking of the “Great Apostasy”. It no longer means a complete loss of truth, rather just a loss of “priesthood authority”. I am willing to accept that modern day Mormons are sincere in their modern beliefs about the “great and abominable church” as well as the purported “apostasy”, erroneous as they are, but I don’t appreciate their unwillingness to admit the original meaning held by their founders, which was pretty nasty. I can also understand the hesitancy in discussing this on a Catholic forum, but it doesn’t get us very far when we can’t just be honest about it.
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No it isn’t speaking of the Catholic Church, and Zerinus has already provided other verses from the Book of Mormon itself to show why such an interpretation doesn’t make sense. Also, where would all the other churches in existence fall if there were only two churches, and the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church? Such an interpretation doesn’t make sense. No Mormon here has denied that some leaders may have believed that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church (if they did deny this or were “unwilling” to admit something, then please cite the post).

Mormon Myths-Great and Abominable Church
 
To answer your question BYU Chem, the abominations of which the great and abominable church is a mother to could be the other churches you are asking about.
 
Pax_in_Veritate said:
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me, Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me, Behold, there are save two churches only: the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil. Wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Is the Mormon church THE church of the lamb of god?

These verses can be interpreted in different ways.
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Pax in Veritate,

I suppose that you realize that you have quoted those verses from what an angel told Nephi, and that they are within a larger context which is contained in 1 Nephi 14, which also has the following verse:

“13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.”

If you have ever thought the Catholic church could be thought of as doing this (gathering multitudes and fighting together against the Lamb of God), then I would have to wonder how you would stretch your thinking into that kind of thought process. I suggest that you have gotten the wrong meaning into what you seem to think people could have thought reading this verse. They would not be associating those words with the Catholic church.
 
SteveVH said:
Do you understand how frustrating it is in trying to communicate with one who gives their own definition of terms which do not comport with the rest of the English speaking world? No offense, but I see no point in carrying on this particular conversation.
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That is up to you. I see it as a cop-out. What do you think of the video clip I gave in post #210 by the way?
 
ParkerD said:
Pax in Veritate,

I suppose that you realize that you have quoted those verses from what an angel told Nephi, and that they are within a larger context which is contained in 1 Nephi 14, which also has the following verse:

“13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.”

If you have ever thought the Catholic church could be thought of as doing this (gathering multitudes and fighting together against the Lamb of God), then I would have to wonder how you would stretch your thinking into that kind of thought process. I suggest that you have gotten the wrong meaning into what you seem to think people could have thought reading this verse. They would not be associating those words with the Catholic church.
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Firstly, I have never thought that the Catholic Church was opposed to the lamb of god. But clearly some sects have believed this. See apostasy, assertions of paganism, evilness etc.
Secondly, I’ll admit my ignorance of your religious texts and am simply reading 3 or 4 verses and with a general understanding of Mormonism.

But I am interested in its meaning at the time it was written and will exercise my right to read it and interpret it, and I am not operating under the faith that an angel actually delivered this message to Nephi. I operate under the assumption that a man wrote this down in the 19th century as he tried to create a new restored church of Jesus Christ, because all churches had fallen into apostasy, lost the true faith, did not receive the entire revelation etc.

Now in applying the verse)
There can be no doubt that Christianity did gather the multitudes of gentiles on the face of the earth, under Catholicsm, Orthodoxy, etc.

Now If you, a mormon, a protestant, or whoever believes the Catholic Church is in Apostasy or has fallen away from god or is evil and you believe your church is the true church of Jesus Christ, then I could see how a Mormon could write that that the Catholic Church was a whore and was adverse to the Lamb of God; leading everyone astray from the true Church of the lamb of god.
And I take anti-Catholicism in 19th century America as true, and if you believe you are the true church of the lamb of god and all other churches are of the devil, then I would say that whoever wrote this text could have believed that the Catholic Church was not the true church, was a whore, created by the devil and that the Mormon Church is the one true Church.

It seems plausible to me, but I acknowledge other interpretations could exist.

Also, please answer my question, is the Mormon church THE church of the lamb of god?
 
ParkerD said:
Pax in Veritate,

I suppose that you realize that you have quoted those verses from what an angel told Nephi, and that they are within a larger context which is contained in 1 Nephi 14, which also has the following verse:

“13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.”

If you have ever thought the Catholic church could be thought of as doing this (gathering multitudes and fighting together against the Lamb of God), then I would have to wonder how you would stretch your thinking into that kind of thought process. I suggest that you have gotten the wrong meaning into what you seem to think people could have thought reading this verse. They would not be associating those words with the Catholic church.
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By the way, let me ask you this as well, who would an unsophisticated, literate, newly initiated Mormon farmer in the 19th century finger lakes region of New York believe that verse refers to?
 
Pax_in_Veritate said:
…
Also, please answer my question, is the Mormon church THE church of the Lamb of God?
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Pax in Veritate,

We find characteristics of the members of the “church of the Lamb” in the Book of Mormon, but also in the book of Revelation which is in keeping with 1 Nephi 14 where the angel tells Nephi that the apostle John will have a vision and will write “the remainder of these things;… also…concerning the end of the world.” (v. 21, 22)

The characteristics described are:

“the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small,…” (v. 12)

“the power of the Lamb of God … descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.” (v. 14)

John described: “And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins,…” (Revelation 18:4)

John also described the eventual fall of Babylon, and the eventual triumph in that “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.” (Revelation 11:15)

So it is not a static situation being described in either vision–it is an unfolding situation during the end times, that leads eventually to the full reign of Christ during the Millennium.
It is a situation similarly described, but more briefly, by Daniel in Daniel 2:44-45, Daniel 7:27, and Daniel 12:10.

I personally think that the answer to your question, for me, is “yes” if by Mormon church you mean The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But for you, the answer could be something different, since you are the only one who knows inside of your heart whether you are “armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory” and whether you are among the “saints of God”. So, it’s your call, for yourself to decide, as I would personally believe it is for anyone to figure out the answer based on their personal relationship with Christ, the Lamb of God, and whether they are personally so armed.
 
Pax_in_Veritate said:
By the way, let me ask you this as well, who would an unsophisticated, literate, newly initiated Mormon farmer in the 19th century finger lakes region of New York believe that verse refers to?
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Pax in Veritate,

Joseph Smith never attributed that verse to describing the Catholic church, to my knowledge, if that’s what you’re asking. Maybe it would help you to read Revelation 18:3–

“For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.”

That is not describing the Catholic church, Pax, so peace to you.
 
“For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.”
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That is not describing the Catholic church, Pax, so peace to you.
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Hypothetically speaking, if I sincerely believe that there is some truth in the BoM, and that many LDS people have apostatized from that truth, and therefore have made themselves the harlot, I have the right to that belief, since so many of LDS beliefs resemble Gnosticism? (so long as I do not try to force that belief on LDS?)
So, it’s your call, for yourself to decide, as I would personally believe it is for anyone to figure out the answer based on their personal relationship with Christ, the Lamb of God, and whether they are personally so armed.
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Jerusha,

You ought to know that you have the right to any belief you want to have. You needn’t ask anyone’s permission.

As far as Gnosticism, I think it is quite evident you don’t know enough about either subject to make a scholarly assessment of what you asserted, but again–you can build your belief any way you choose.

'Hoping you and your family are well.🙂
 
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