LDS: Is the name "Nephi" a derivative of "Nephilim"?

[ParkerD]

And praying for you and your family. May it stay together as you continue your journey.

Thanks, Jerusha, it is staying together. Current status:

Twenty seven year old daughter, staying close to the family, lives at home.
Twenty six year old son, bought a home in a nearby city, staying close to the family, has a leadership position to help other young adults draw close to the Savior in his ward where he lives.
Twenty four year old daughter, at home while she does student teaching in art finishing her degree, staying close to the family and to Christ.
Twenty two year old daughter, serving in Missouri but we just had a great Christmas phone call and she is staying close to the family and to Christ.
Twenty year old daughter, home for a semester break and staying close to the family and to Christ.
Eighteen year old son, home and enjoying his senior year and staying close to the family and to Christ and able to influence other youth positively.
Sixteen year old son (birthday today headed skiing), ditto with the eighteen year old.
Thirteen year old daughter (tracheotomy), delightful personality as they all have, and staying close to the family and to Christ.
P.S. (They’re all pretty good singers, so we sing often and some play piano or violin and guitar and that’s all a bonus! )

 

[Jerusha]

Those activities and social support are definitely positives. May you continue to have a positive attitude.

 

[SteveVH]

That is up to you. I see it as a cop-out. What do you think of the video clip I gave in post #210 by the way?

In this one conversation, church no longer means church. Zion no longer means Zion. This isn’t a cop-out zerinus, I am more than happy to discuss anything with you, but not when it becomes a guessing game. Human language has meaning, and when that meaning is subject to change on a whim, communication becomes impossible.

In the mid 19th century anti-Catholicism was rampant. You are aware that the LDS is not the only church to use these terms. It was very common in the restoration churches, of which, the LDS is but one. It is not at all surprising. I do appreciate the fact that you hold our Church in higher esteem than that, but whether or not the meaning you attribute to these verses is the meaning originally intended is at least disputable.

As for the video clip, I guess I was not as amazed as the gentlemen on the video, but I would never make a judgment one way or another upon one viewing and no research into his claims. Were ancient Hebrew and Egyptian names not available in the 1830’s? Anyway, at this point I could not make a judgement, but thanks for the link.

 

[BYUChemAlum]

In this one conversation, church no longer means church. Zion no longer means Zion. This isn’t a cop-out zerinus, I am more than happy to discuss anything with you, but not when it becomes a guessing game. Human language has meaning, and when that meaning is subject to change on a whim, communication becomes impossible.

I don’t think there is a guessing game at all. Words have multiple definitions, hence why dictionaries include secondary definitions, since not everyone uses certain words in the same way. Zerinus’ interpretation of the word “church” in this context is consistent with what the Book of Mormon actually says on this issue in context, as the article I linked to shows further.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I don’t think there is a guessing game at all. Words have multiple definitions, hence why dictionaries include secondary definitions, since not everyone uses certain words in the same way. Zerinus’ interpretation of the word “church” in this context is consistent with what the Book of Mormon actually says on this issue in context, as the article I linked to shows further.

I didn’t notice this latitude in definitions when the word martyr was under discussion.

 

[zerinus]

In this one conversation, church no longer means church. Zion no longer means Zion. This isn’t a cop-out zerinus, I am more than happy to discuss anything with you, but not when it becomes a guessing game. Human language has meaning, and when that meaning is subject to change on a whim, communication becomes impossible.

Synagogue is another word used in the Bible with the same meaning as church. What, in your opinion, is meant by the “synagogue of Satan” in the following verses:

Revelation 2:

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 3:

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

How would you identify this church? Does it have a registration number? Are there membership records for it? Evidently it existed, but what did it look like? How would you go about identifying it?

As for the video clip, I guess I was not as amazed as the gentlemen on the video, but I would never make a judgment one way or another upon one viewing and no research into his claims. Were ancient Hebrew and Egyptian names not available in the 1830’s? Anyway, at this point I could not make a judgement, but thanks for the link.

That video clip was based on an article in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, and it can be read here. There is a link at the top of the article that says PDF. If you click on that link, you can download a PDF version of it that includes all the illustrations and the format of the original article.

 

[SteveVH]

Synagogue is another word used in the Bible with the same meaning as church. What, in your opinion, is meant by the “synagogue of Satan” in the following verses:

Revelation 2:

8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Revelation 3:

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

How would you identify this church? Does it have a registration number? Are there membership records for it? Evidently it existed, but what did it look like? How would you go about identifying it?

The letter to Smyrna was written to encourage the Christians, letting them know that they are rich in Christ, even though they may be otherwise impoverished as it was a Church that was materially poor. It references those Jews who were slandering them as the assembly, or synagogue of Satan. It in used in the same sense in the other verses you cited.

I will acknowledge that your explanation is plausible, however the question remains as to the orignal intent of Joseph Smith. The reason I say this is, as I have said before, the derogatory term was in common usage among the anti-Catholics of Joseph Smith’s period and it is improbable that he had not heard it used in that context. As I have also said before, I appreciate the fact that modern day Mormons do not understand it in that context.

That video clip was based on an article in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, and it can be read here. There is a link at the top of the article that says PDF. If you click on that link, you can download a PDF version of it that includes all the illustrations and the format of the original article.

I’ll take a look when I get a chance. Thanks.

 

[zerinus]

I will acknowledge that your explanation is plausible, however the question remains as to the orignal intent of Joseph Smith. The reason I say this is, as I have said before, the derogatory term was in common usage among the anti-Catholics of Joseph Smith’s period and it is improbable that he had not heard it used in that context. As I have also said before, I appreciate the fact that modern day Mormons do not understand it in that context.

Those expressions are found in the book of Revelation too. Did Joseph Smith write the Revelation of John as well? The truth is that Joseph Smith neither wrote the book of Revelation nor the Book of Mormon. Those expressions found their way in the Book of Mormon from the same Source that they found their way in the Book of Revelation. We determine the meaning of a word or phrase by its context, not by your fanciful ideas of where they might have come from.

 

[Jerusha]

Those expressions found their way in the Book of Mormon from the same Source that they found their way in the Book of Revelation.

:banghead: Absolutely amazing conclusion. :coffeeread::bigyikes: Reading your posts is better than drinking coffee.

 

[KathleenGee]

The final passages of the Last Apostle in Revelations gave no warning to the faithful to watch out for the subsequent apostasy.

 

[flyonthewall]

I didn’t notice this latitude in definitions when the word martyr was under discussion.

You are right…latitude for the definition of the word “martyr” was not used by some, even though I gave the dictionary definition that provided the lattitude.

 

[SteveVH]

Those expressions are found in the book of Revelation too. Did Joseph Smith write the Revelation of John as well? The truth is that Joseph Smith neither wrote the book of Revelation nor the Book of Mormon. Those expressions found their way in the Book of Mormon from the same Source that they found their way in the Book of Revelation. We determine the meaning of a word or phrase by its context, not by your fanciful ideas of where they might have come from.

Joseph Smith lifted a lot of material from scripture, this is just one more. It has nothing to do with anyone’s fanciful ideas except those of the LDS church.

 

[zaffiroborant]

You are right…latitude for the definition of the word “martyr” was not used by some, even though I gave the dictionary definition that provided the lattitude.

But Z was asking for latitude that went beyond the dictionary, saying in the LDS have their own understanding of words.

 

[zerinus]

Joseph Smith lifted a lot of material from scripture, this is just one more. It has nothing to do with anyone’s fanciful ideas except those of the LDS church.

So you reckon the book of Revelation teaches that the Catholic Church is the church of the devil? Well I don’t. I am surprised that you do.

 

[Jerusha]

Your logic is very convoluted. Here is the simple version:

Revelation teaches that the Catholic Church, wending her way through persecutions and heresies, will be victorious in the end.

Here is an official interpretation
usccb.org/nab/bible/revelation/intro.htm

Protestants departed from its historical context, and developed an anti-Catholic interpretation. And THAT is to be found in those passages in the BoM, written in 1829, that we have been discussing.

 

[KathleenGee]

The interpretation I have shared this past week with Mormons is a Marian interpretation – an interpretation.

If anything, the Book of Revelation is the condensation of the entire Bible…we are always dealing with the same struggles of good vs evil.

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

So you reckon the book of Revelation teaches that the Catholic Church is the church of the devil? Well I don’t. I am surprised that you do.

You guys keep using this silly argument. We are talking about what he writers of the Book of Mormon thought, not necessarily what you think or what the current church teaches.

 

[KathleenGee]

The ongoing use of deflection and drawing on obscure statements to get the finger pointed back at us…

I see too much conjecturing on the part of Mormonism to get that more involved in arguments and disputes.

 

[SteveVH]

So you reckon the book of Revelation teaches that the Catholic Church is the church of the devil? Well I don’t. I am surprised that you do.

:hypno: Out of answers are we?

 

[Esdra]

:hypno: Out of answers are we?

Originally Posted by zerinus View Post
So you reckon the book of Revelation teaches that the Catholic Church is the church of the devil? Well I don’t. I am surprised that you do.

This is nothing new. SDA believe that also. I’ve heard a preacher saying so on the “Hope-Channel”.