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Nordar
Guest
In the sense that it differs from you then you would be absolutly correct!
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I understand the not wanting to be bound by religious ārulesā, it is how I felt as an atheist. Not saying you are an atheistā¦just I understand the idea.
Today, I do not feel bound. Ironically, I feel more free than I ever have. The beliefs embodied in the Credo are not meant to bind you, they are meant to free you.
Christ is the Way, and when you follow that Way, all things that bind and block fall to the wayside and the way before you is free.
When you were baptized a Catholic, you were freed from any bonds, nothing holds you but the bonds you create for yourself. The Sacraments are the gifts that God has given us, and among many things, they open that free road even wider.
You need nothing more than that from God. Trust Him. Thatās all you need to do.
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
By turning himself over to be crusified. He showed that even Death had no power over God will and Glory that is Gods. That God is Able to do what he says.So how did Jesus glorify God by taking on Himself the sins of the world? He simply acknowledged the glory that God already had? How?
zerinus
In other words when we give the Glory to God we in acutality are placing it were it already is. I (we) are noting without God. We (I)have noting without God. Therefore I have nothing of my own to give to God. If I glorify God I am mearly ackowledging the Glory that is already his.
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zerinus
Guest
Not true at all. Of course not. LDS doctrine teaches that God is immutable and unchangable. That is written all over LDS scripture. I hadnāt invented anything new in Mormonism.
zerinus
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zerinus
Guest
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truthsilence
Guest
Was there ever a time when God was not as wise, intellegent, perfect, all knowing and all powerful as He is now?
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zerinus
Guest
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truthsilence
Guest
Okay, then whats all this āclimbing the ladderā business Joseph Smith was teaching about? Donāt you believe him?
lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/godhead/farms_man.htm
- Smith, History of the Church, 6:306-7
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zerinus
Guest
That is not scripture. Our prophets have advised us to go by what the scriptures say, which is this:
Moses 1:
3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?
That is the bottom line, end of story.
zerinus
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Hey there friend,
zerinus does not believe God was once a man. And the other Mormons here say that is a perfectly legitimate view for a Mormon to have. Things sure have changed, havenāt they?
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
If it did not make since to me I would not have said it. I will try to say it a little plainer. I am and have nothing there for I can give nothing to God. Therefore when I Glorify God I am doing no more than acknowledging the Glory that is already Godās. I can give him no Glory because I have non to give. I can but merely acknowledge His Glory.
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truthsilence
Guest
Hi
I donāt believe things have changed at all. Theyāre still teaching this. Although, sometimes people will lie and say theyāre not.Zerinus, the LDS church has consistently claimed that Joseph Smith is āthe great prophet of this dispensationā. You donāt have to believe what he taught. But I guess Iām just wonderingā¦what are you doing at church? sleeping? Why donāt you just wake up and go to mass? :getholy: What a great idea!
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RebeccaJ
Guest
zerinus only believes what he reads in the BoMā¦ok, what he calls āscripturesā. You can show him all day what is taught in the current manuals and he says the manuals havenāt caught up with correct doctrine. So, pretty much, he believes the Mormon church is teaching errors and will eventually get around to taking these erroneous teachings out of their manuals.Hi
Zerinus, the LDS church has consistently claimed that Joseph Smith is āthe great prophet of this dispensationā. You donāt have to believe what he taught. But I guess Iām just wonderingā¦what are you doing at church? sleeping? Why donāt you just wake up and go to mass? :getholy: What a great idea!
Disconnect alert!!!
BDawg, the resident apologist, says this is just fine.
So, dear friend, we could be Mormon while believing nothing of what that religion teaches. Ready to get rebaptized?
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truthsilence
Guest
:nope: :whacky:zerinus only believes what he reads in the BoMā¦ok, what he calls āscripturesā. You can show him all day what is taught in the current manuals and he says the manuals havenāt caught up with correct doctrine. So, pretty much, he believes the Mormon church is teaching errors and will eventually get around to taking these erroneous teachings out of their manuals.
Disconnect alert!!!
BDawg, the resident apologist, says this is just fine.
So, dear friend, we could be Mormon while believing nothing of what that religion teaches. Ready to get rebaptized?
B
BartBurk
Guest
And give up the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ for bread and water? It would be like going back to prison ā¦zerinus only believes what he reads in the BoMā¦ok, what he calls āscripturesā. You can show him all day what is taught in the current manuals and he says the manuals havenāt caught up with correct doctrine. So, pretty much, he believes the Mormon church is teaching errors and will eventually get around to taking these erroneous teachings out of their manuals.
Disconnect alert!!!
BDawg, the resident apologist, says this is just fine.
So, dear friend, we could be Mormon while believing nothing of what that religion teaches. Ready to get rebaptized?
I like the freedom Iāve found in the Catholic Church. They say a train is free if it stays on the rails. The rails for me are found in the Catholic Church. No more confusion like we find in Mormonism. And King Follet is the biggest example of confusion and going off the rails that Iāve ever read.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I agree, 100%.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
This only drives home the fact that either there is ultra deception going on deliberately by the LDS, or that the Devil has a stranglehold on anyone who would submit to that religion.
The question is simple and decides it all:
WAS JOSEPH SMITH DOCTRINALLY WRONG IN HIS TEACHING ON ETERNAL PROGRESSION? YES OR NO.
And with that simple question Zerinus - proud champion of the fully recovered Gospel and one true Church - is toast.*
*IF he says āyesā then he is calling Smith a doctrinal liar and destroys any credibility for following him. IF he says ānoā then he admits he was telling a huge and deliberate fib, a real (double) whopper (w/cheese) level of a lie.
ROFLOL!
I never dreamed I would see such a situation in my life. I never imagined a religion with this sort of āframeworkā which was shrugged off as no big deal.
I want to see if BDawg says what Smith said was doctrinal error or not.
My theory is not so much you donāt have to believe, but that winning the convert is so important that anything can be compromised until that time. Iād bet everything I own that once you are āinā and work your way up there is no way they would let you by formally denying Eternal Progression.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW
NEW INFO FOUND
I had to check Zerinusā statements with a quick search of the LDS webpageā¦guess what?
**Is President Lorenzo Snowās oft-repeated statementāāAs man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may beāāaccepted as official doctrine by the Church? **
Gerald N. Lund, āI Have a Question,ā Ensign, Feb. 1982, 39ā40
Gerald N. Lund, Teacher Support Consultant for the Church Education System.
To my knowledge there has been no āofficialā pronouncement by the First Presidency declaring that President Snowās couplet is to be accepted as doctrine. **But that is not a valid criteria for determining whether or not it is doctrine.
Generally, the First Presidency issues official doctrinal declarations when there is a general misunderstanding of the doctrine on the part of many people. Therefore, the Church teaches many principles which are accepted as doctrines but which the First Presidency has seen no need to declare in an official pronouncement. This particular doctrine has been taught not only by Lorenzo Snow, fifth President of the Church, but also by others of the Brethren before and since that time.
ā¦
ā¦
According to Elder Snow, āWhile attentively listening to his explanation, the Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon meāthe eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun at noonday, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man. I formed the following couplet which expresses the *revelation, *as it was shown me, and explains Father Smithās dark saying to me at a blessing meeting in the Kirtland Temple, prior to my baptism. ā¦
āAs man now is, God once was:ā
āAs God now is, man may be.ā
āI felt this to be a sacred communication, which I related to no one except my sister Eliza, until I reached England, when in a confidential private conversation with President Brigham Young, in Manchester, I related to him this extraordinary manifestation.ā (Eliza R. Snow, pp. 46ā47; italics added. Brigham Young was President of the Quorum of the Twelve at the time.)
āSoon after his return from England, in January, 1843, Lorenzo Snow related to the Prophet Joseph Smith his experience in Elder Sherwoodās home. This was in a confidential interview in Nauvoo. The Prophetās reply was: āBrother Snow, that is a true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you.ā ā (LeRoi C. Snow, *Improvement Era, *June 1919, p. 656.)
The Prophet Joseph Smith himself publicly taught the doctrine the following year, 1844, during a funeral sermon of Elder King Follett: āGod himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! ā¦ It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did.ā (*Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, *sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1938, pp. 345ā46.)
Once the Prophet Joseph had taught the doctrine publicly, Elder Snow also felt free to publicly teach it,ā¦
ā¦
Numerous sources could be cited, but one should suffice to show that this doctrine is accepted and taught by the Brethren. In an address in 1971, President Joseph Fielding Smith, then serving as President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said:
āI think I can pay no greater tribute to [President Lorenzo Snow and Elder Erastus Snow] than to preach again *that glorious doctrine *which they taught and which was one of the favorite themes, particularly of President Lorenzo Snow. ā¦ ā¦ āGod himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens,ā and that men āhave got to learn how to be Gods ā¦ the same as all Gods have done before.ā
āAfter this doctrine had been taught by the Prophet, President Snow felt free to teach it also, and he summarized it in one of the best known couplets in the Church. ā¦
āThis same doctrine has of course been known to the prophets of all the ages, and President Snow wrote an excellent poetic summary of it.ā (Address on Snow Day, given at Snow College, 14 May 1971, pp. 1, 3ā4; italics added.)
**It is clear that the teaching of President Lorenzo Snow is both acceptable and accepted doctrine in the Church today. **
lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=ec1faeca0ea6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
BOOM!
NEW INFO FOUND
I had to check Zerinusā statements with a quick search of the LDS webpageā¦guess what?
**Is President Lorenzo Snowās oft-repeated statementāāAs man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may beāāaccepted as official doctrine by the Church? **
Gerald N. Lund, āI Have a Question,ā Ensign, Feb. 1982, 39ā40
Gerald N. Lund, Teacher Support Consultant for the Church Education System.
To my knowledge there has been no āofficialā pronouncement by the First Presidency declaring that President Snowās couplet is to be accepted as doctrine. **But that is not a valid criteria for determining whether or not it is doctrine.
Generally, the First Presidency issues official doctrinal declarations when there is a general misunderstanding of the doctrine on the part of many people. Therefore, the Church teaches many principles which are accepted as doctrines but which the First Presidency has seen no need to declare in an official pronouncement. This particular doctrine has been taught not only by Lorenzo Snow, fifth President of the Church, but also by others of the Brethren before and since that time.
ā¦
ā¦
According to Elder Snow, āWhile attentively listening to his explanation, the Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon meāthe eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun at noonday, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man. I formed the following couplet which expresses the *revelation, *as it was shown me, and explains Father Smithās dark saying to me at a blessing meeting in the Kirtland Temple, prior to my baptism. ā¦
āAs man now is, God once was:ā
āAs God now is, man may be.ā
āI felt this to be a sacred communication, which I related to no one except my sister Eliza, until I reached England, when in a confidential private conversation with President Brigham Young, in Manchester, I related to him this extraordinary manifestation.ā (Eliza R. Snow, pp. 46ā47; italics added. Brigham Young was President of the Quorum of the Twelve at the time.)
āSoon after his return from England, in January, 1843, Lorenzo Snow related to the Prophet Joseph Smith his experience in Elder Sherwoodās home. This was in a confidential interview in Nauvoo. The Prophetās reply was: āBrother Snow, that is a true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you.ā ā (LeRoi C. Snow, *Improvement Era, *June 1919, p. 656.)
The Prophet Joseph Smith himself publicly taught the doctrine the following year, 1844, during a funeral sermon of Elder King Follett: āGod himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! ā¦ It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did.ā (*Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, *sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1938, pp. 345ā46.)
Once the Prophet Joseph had taught the doctrine publicly, Elder Snow also felt free to publicly teach it,ā¦
ā¦
Numerous sources could be cited, but one should suffice to show that this doctrine is accepted and taught by the Brethren. In an address in 1971, President Joseph Fielding Smith, then serving as President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, said:
āI think I can pay no greater tribute to [President Lorenzo Snow and Elder Erastus Snow] than to preach again *that glorious doctrine *which they taught and which was one of the favorite themes, particularly of President Lorenzo Snow. ā¦ ā¦ āGod himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens,ā and that men āhave got to learn how to be Gods ā¦ the same as all Gods have done before.ā
āAfter this doctrine had been taught by the Prophet, President Snow felt free to teach it also, and he summarized it in one of the best known couplets in the Church. ā¦
āThis same doctrine has of course been known to the prophets of all the ages, and President Snow wrote an excellent poetic summary of it.ā (Address on Snow Day, given at Snow College, 14 May 1971, pp. 1, 3ā4; italics added.)
**It is clear that the teaching of President Lorenzo Snow is both acceptable and accepted doctrine in the Church today. **
lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=ec1faeca0ea6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1
BOOM!
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Bingo.
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AMDGtoo
Guest
Wow! And to think that their president Hinkley (who passed away only a short time ago) denied knowing if they still teach the couplet on a TV show for all to hear. Scary. Lying when the truth would do!
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