LDS Leaders know the Mormon Church is false

[runningdude]

…

There are no “smoke and mirrors”. Your argument is unclear and disorganized.

You have provided a quote and provided no source or context for said quote. How could I provide any proof this dude is lying if you don’t even say where you got it from. With no source or context, the whole thing could be a fabrication.

The quoted interview you provide alleges that the leaders believe the church is false and perpetuates it anyways. Yet the interviewee provides no evidence. Zip. I read the interview several times, and couldn’t find any support for his allegation. He may have “witnessed” behavior, but he does not describe the behavior he saw, or explain how the behavior show the leaders are lying. Perhaps you truncated the interview, and he provided support elsewhere - but without the original source, how could I know???

You then ask six unrelated questions, after twelve rambling paragraphs of quoted interview. You provide no thesis, no theme that you are trying to show, just six questions and no context. This does not lead to a compelling argument. As a Catholic, I would by pass such a thread in a Protestant forum, because how could I respond to a thread that opens the door to any accusation without any order? Failure to respond does not itself prove the argument.

As for “slander”, sure you could be petty and quibble over the exact terminology, but I did not say the interview was formal “slander”, but merely described it informally as “slanderous”. Since you do not have a coherent argument to defend, you appear to be attacking any point you can. This is lame strategy, and will not convert hearts for Jesus (which is what I hope you are trying to do).

 

[iepuras]

You know, you could answer the question…

And you could read the link I posted which had more information.

Mark Hoffman created several fake historical documents which were damaging to the LDS church. He sold them to LDS leaders. The most infamous one was the “Salamander Letter” in which it was revealed that Joseph Smith saw a white salamander in fire rather than the angel Moroni and that he had engaged in black magic and the occult well after his supposed first vision.

Two LDS apostles (Gordon Hinckley and Dallin Oaks) bought the forged manuscripts on behalf of the LDS church and attempted to hide them since they were damaging to their church’s claims. As apostles, Hinckley and Oaks are prophets, seers and revelators. They are supposed to receive revelation from God. They never bothered to ask for a revelation on the authenticity of the damaging documents from the god who supposedly gives them revelation. It was the prominent ex-Mormons Sandra and Jerald Tanner who called the salamander letter a fake even though it supported their claims against Joseph Smith and the LDS church. It was a very embarrassing episode for the LDS church, especially for Hinckley who was the defacto LDS president since the actual church president was very ill and could not function as president.

The link below has a lot more information, including the murders.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hofmann

 

[TexanKnight]

There are no “smoke and mirrors”. Your argument is unclear and disorganized.

I will agree that, to YOU, it is disorganized. Most of that is due to your lack of knowledge on the subject.

You have provided a quote and provided no source or context for said quote. How could I provide any proof this dude is lying if you don’t even say where you got it from. With no source or context, the whole thing could be a fabrication.

I sourced the author of the quote. That is all I need to do.

The quoted interview you provide alleges that the leaders believe the church is false and perpetuates it anyways. Yet the interviewee provides no evidence. Zip.

It was as a witness to a conversation. In situations like that, there are rarely “evidence”. Geez…really? He testified as to to what he heard. That is all he needed to do. Your straw arguments are odd.

I read the interview several times, and couldn’t find any support for his allegation. He may have “witnessed” behavior, but he does not describe the behavior he saw, or explain how the behavior show the leaders are lying. Perhaps you truncated the interview, and he provided support elsewhere - but without the original source, how could I know???

He is the original source to the interview. Call him a liar if you want. But that is the best you can do.

You then ask six unrelated questions, after twelve rambling paragraphs of quoted interview. You provide no thesis, no theme that you are trying to show, just six questions and no context.

LOL…again, all I wanted to do was to present the quote than ask follow up questions. I truly apologize if all this is as over your head as it seems to be.

This does not lead to a compelling argument. As a Catholic, I would by pass such a thread in a Protestant forum, because how could I respond to a thread that opens the door to any accusation without any order? Failure to respond does not itself prove the argument.

Yes, you can’t pass this one. You keep on…just for sake of fighting. Odd. You would pass it up on a different board, but continue to complain and moan on this one. Makes me wonder of you are truly Catholic, or another LDS troll

As for “slander”, sure you could be petty and quibble over the exact terminology, but I did not say the interview was formal “slander”, but merely described it informally as “slanderous”. Since you do not have a coherent argument to defend, you appear to be attacking any point you can. This is lame strategy, and will not convert hearts for Jesus (which is what I hope you are trying to do).

lol…no…I am just responding to your silly comments…because it is fun and you are humorous. You said it was slander, or slanderous…which is a form of the word slander. it isn’t. Again, your lack of knowledge is forgivable.

 

[TexanKnight]

And you could read the link I posted which had more information.

Mark Hoffman created several fake historical documents which were damaging to the LDS church. He sold them to LDS leaders. The most infamous one was the “Salamander Letter” in which it was revealed that Joseph Smith saw a white salamander in fire rather than the angel Moroni and that he had engaged in black magic and the occult well after his supposed first vision.

Two LDS apostles (Gordon Hinckley and Dallin Oaks) bought the forged manuscripts on behalf of the LDS church and attempted to hide them since they were damaging to their church’s claims. As apostles, Hinckley and Oaks are prophets, seers and revelators. They are supposed to receive revelation from God. They never bothered to ask for a revelation on the authenticity of the damaging documents from the god who supposedly gives them revelation. It was the prominent ex-Mormons Sandra and Jerald Tanner who called the salamander letter a fake even though it supported their claims against Joseph Smith and the LDS church. It was a very embarrassing episode for the LDS church, especially for Hinckley who was the defacto LDS president since the actual church president was very ill and could not function as president.

The link below has a lot more information, including the murders.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hofmann

He prefers to quibble with us than to do anything to increase his knowledge…

 

[garyo49]

You know that this is Catholic Answers Forum not Mormon right?

I’ve said that before and am glad you said it again. It’s amazing how much attention Mormon questions get. Who cares!

 

[Marie5890]

I’ve said that before and am glad you said it again. It’s amazing how much attention Mormon questions get. Who cares!

They get a lot of attention because, clearly, people do care, and care a lot.

If people didnt care, the threads would go dead. Right?

 

[TexanKnight]

I’ve said that before and am glad you said it again. It’s amazing how much attention Mormon questions get. Who cares!

I am amazed at posts like these. This particular board is a Non-Catholic Religions Board…yet people seemed shocked that we discuss Non-Catholic Religions.

I wonder of they are the same folks who are astounded to find pecans in Pecan Pie?

 

[Marie5890]

I am amazed at posts like these. This particular board is a Non-Catholic Religions Board…yet people seemed shocked that we discuss Non-Catholic Religions.

I wonder of they are the same folks who are astounded to find pecans in Pecan Pie?

(side note here TK. Been a long weekend here and not in a good way, but this made me burst out laughing…thanks…I needed that )

 

[Holly3278]

They get a lot of attention because, clearly, people do care, and care a lot.

If people didnt care, the threads would go dead. Right?

Well, I care because I don’t like the fact that Mormons are deceived into believing lies. I want to see them convert to Catholicism and so if helping to debunk Mormon theology and things like this help then that’s great!

 

[iepuras]

They get a lot of attention because, clearly, people do care, and care a lot.

If people didnt care, the threads would go dead. Right?

Mormon threads get a lot of attention because a lot of their post-WW2 converts were Catholic and they continue to actively proselytize. We should care because we want Mormons to come to know the One True God.

Also, Mormons are leaving the LDS church “in droves”, according to Elder Marlin Jensen, who was a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy and Church Historian until his release in October 2012. We should welcome them with open arms in love and truth. These threads help Catholics know where Mormons and ex-Mormons are coming from (I hope). It wasn’t that long ago I was one of those who left. Thanks be to God I made my way home to the Catholic Church.

 

[JamesCollins]

This is all very interesting. It is tough to judge this without knowing who the Seventy was making this claim. Do we know who the Seventy was and is he trustworthy? I’m sure Grant Palmer believes he (Grant Palmer) is telling the truth. I also think Grant Palmer is a lot like many of us ex-Mormons – we sincerely want to be proven right beyond a shadow of a doubt so that our Mormon families can be rescued from the LDS cult. Unfortunately, we need these words to come out of a General Authority’s mouth rather than from a second hand quote from a Seventy to a person outside of the inner circle. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out the church has a slush fund to take care of the apostles.

 

[TexanKnight]

This is all very interesting. It is tough to judge this without knowing who the Seventy was making this claim. Do we know who the Seventy was and is he trustworthy? I’m sure Grant Palmer believes he (Grant Palmer) is telling the truth. I also think Grant Palmer is a lot like many of us ex-Mormons – we sincerely want to be proven right beyond a shadow of a doubt so that our Mormon families can be rescued from the LDS cult. Unfortunately, we need these words to come out of a General Authority’s mouth rather than from a second hand quote from a Seventy to a person outside of the inner circle. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out the church has a slush fund to take care of the apostles.

from what I know of Palmer, he is pretty thorough. I have no reason to disbelieve him. And the idea of a GA lying about something like this seems pretty remote. I know the type of folks that are 70s. I have met LDS Apostles and 70s and my ex-brother-in-law was a Latin 70.

And frankly, what Palmer says explains a lot of things I had questioned in the past

 

[JamesCollins]

from what I know of Palmer, he is pretty thorough. I have no reason to disbelieve him. And the idea of a GA lying about something like this seems pretty remote. I know the type of folks that are 70s. I have met LDS Apostles and 70s and my ex-brother-in-law was a Latin 70.

And frankly, what Palmer says explains a lot of things I had questioned in the past

It bothers me a little bit that the Seventy said he was just surmising it and wasn’t told it directly. I don’t doubt Palmer, but I do question Palmer’s source. If he knows this is true he should come out publicly and say it. Or did he do so already? I haven’t heard of anything like that.

 

[garyo49]

Mormon threads get a lot of attention because a lot of their post-WW2 converts were Catholic and they continue to actively proselytize. We should care because we want Mormons to come to know the One True God.

Also, Mormons are leaving the LDS church “in droves”, according to Elder Marlin Jensen, who was a member of the First Quorum of the Seventy and Church Historian until his release in October 2012. We should welcome them with open arms in love and truth. These threads help Catholics know where Mormons and ex-Mormons are coming from (I hope). It wasn’t that long ago I was one of those who left. Thanks be to God I made my way home to the Catholic Church.

It’s not the members that I have a problem with per se although it breaks my heart that they are so brain-washed by the church into believing that Smith was everything he said he was. The problem with Mormonism is that to the leadership there isn’t anything as important as Mormonism itself. Mormonism has been a culture of lies, deceit, and suppression (thats where the lds in LDS comes from) from the very start. It’s not very hard to prove that Smith made it all up as he went along. Mormon doctrine is one giant contradiction. In Mormon scriptures you can find many contradictions on any major Mormon doctrine. In church history you can find evidence to disprove almost everything the church currently teaches about it’s history and their apologetic organizations make desperate attempts to come up with answers that will satisfy believing members that might be questioning the faith. That doesn’t happen very often though because you are taught from birth that if you are questioning, questioning comes from “the evil one”. Just what you would expect from a cult. So, the church has spent the last 150 years trying to cleaning up it’s history and suppressing anything that would show the church in a negative way. They actually employ one of the most prestigious PR firms in this country. Thirty years ago I realized we had all been had and I never looked back. Now I am an extremely, happy Catholic. We all need to pray for them and it is very important that we know our faith because as you point out so correctly, Mormons say that it’s easy to convert a Catholic and they have done that a lot. Breaks my poor heart. . … …

 

[TexanKnight]

It bothers me a little bit that the Seventy said he was just surmising it and wasn’t told it directly. I don’t doubt Palmer, but I do question Palmer’s source. If he knows this is true he should come out publicly and say it. Or did he do so already? I haven’t heard of anything like that.

Too much to lose

 

[Telstar]

There are no “smoke and mirrors”. Your argument is unclear and disorganized.

You have provided a quote and provided no source or context for said quote. How could I provide any proof this dude is lying if you don’t even say where you got it from. With no source or context, the whole thing could be a fabrication.

The quoted interview you provide alleges that the leaders believe the church is false and perpetuates it anyways. Yet the interviewee provides no evidence. Zip. I read the interview several times, and couldn’t find any support for his allegation. He may have “witnessed” behavior, but he does not describe the behavior he saw, or explain how the behavior show the leaders are lying. Perhaps you truncated the interview, and he provided support elsewhere - but without the original source, how could I know???

You then ask six unrelated questions, after twelve rambling paragraphs of quoted interview. You provide no thesis, no theme that you are trying to show, just six questions and no context. This does not lead to a compelling argument. As a Catholic, I would by pass such a thread in a Protestant forum, because how could I respond to a thread that opens the door to any accusation without any order? Failure to respond does not itself prove the argument.

As for “slander”, sure you could be petty and quibble over the exact terminology, but I did not say the interview was formal “slander”, but merely described it informally as “slanderous”. Since you do not have a coherent argument to defend, you appear to be attacking any point you can. This is lame strategy, and will not convert hearts for Jesus (which is what I hope you are trying to do).

This was posted in a previous thread on this subject, here. The first link is from a former LDS (now an evangelical minister) that speaks about it. The second one is a link to the other thread on CAF. I hope it helps clear some things up for you.

 

[superwimp]

Hello,

 This is sort of a related topic with regards to the leaders not actually believing in the restoration.  When LDS bear their testimony they have a list of things which they say which are unique to their faith system.  Joseph smith was a prophet. He saw god. One true church, book of Mormon and TSM is a prophet.   JS was born in 1805 so at the 200 year anniversary President Monson was pretty much forced to bear a Mormon type testimony with regards to the unique aspects of Mormonism.
 The LDS freedom forum is a pro LDS forum with a lot of active LDS.  About a year ago the following thread was discussed: "Pres Monson hasn't borne a(n LDS Morg) testimony in 8 years."

ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=30109

 

[JamesCollins]

The reality is that Joseph Smith started the Mormon Church as a way to support the family which didn’t require farming. It’s always been a business with a religion attached to it. It has always been that way. There is a reason the top leaders have money – they didn’t all make it on their own. Boyd K. Packer was an institute teacher and became rich as a General Authority. The same was true with Gordon B. Hinckley. Thomas S. Monson has generally been supported by the church since he was a young man. They made it to the top and live like one percenters. They run with the same crowd. They have been successful at using the Mormon Church as a means of making a personal fortune and making sure their families have the same perks. If the general membership knew how the finances in the LDS Church worked they would be appalled at the amount of cronyism. I’d love to see who gets all the big building projects and how they are related to the elite of the church. So I think they know it’s all a fraud, and they don’t care – they are at the top of the food chain and aren’t going to give it up over a simple matter like truth. My guess is privately they are all universalists who believe in Christ and believe everyone will be saved. I do think they believe the LDS Church is the best way to follow Christ even if it isn’t a true church.

 

[TexanKnight]

The reality is that Joseph Smith started the Mormon Church as a way to support the family which didn’t require farming. It’s always been a business with a religion attached to it. It has always been that way. There is a reason the top leaders have money – they didn’t all make it on their own. Boyd K. Packer was an institute teacher and became rich as a General Authority. The same was true with Gordon B. Hinckley. Thomas S. Monson has generally been supported by the church since he was a young man. They made it to the top and live like one percenters. They run with the same crowd. They have been successful at using the Mormon Church as a means of making a personal fortune and making sure their families have the same perks. If the general membership knew how the finances in the LDS Church worked they would be appalled at the amount of cronyism. I’d love to see who gets all the big building projects and how they are related to the elite of the church. So I think they know it’s all a fraud, and they don’t care – they are at the top of the food chain and aren’t going to give it up over a simple matter like truth. My guess is privately they are all universalists who believe in Christ and believe everyone will be saved. I do think they believe the LDS Church is the best way to follow Christ even if it isn’t a true church.

Yes. js was a con man and a treasure seeker. He tried many ways to be important and get money. He heard others claiming to have Jesus and God visit them and copied them. It worked. He was able to gain followers to do his bidding. He even was able to convince them to build him houses with their own money and supplies.

 

[Memaw]

Yes but I enjoy hearing these items about other religions. Truly blessed by being Catholic and I thank God.

I do believe the elastic band has been stretched pretty far and we will be seeing a return, if not a stampede, back to the Catholic Church. God works in mysterious ways.

I hope and pray your right. That may explain why so many protestant ministers are converting to the Catholic Faith and are better informed in the Catholic Faith then most cradle Catholics. If only some Catholics would defend the Catholic Faith as well as they do other denominations. God bless, Memaw